RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted May 1, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 1, 2012 Full milk train as opposed to a passenger with a milk tank or two on the back. Should would or could it have a full brake at the rear, or would it have had a TOAD? TY Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Always a full brake (BG) if it was to run at express speeds as milk trains almost always were (they didn't want the contents arriving curdled). The exceptions would be a creamery on a branch line where tanks might be tripped to the junction in order to be attached to one of the fast milk trains to London. In practice this was almost always done as tail traffic on passenger services (e.g. Hemyock, Saltash). In theory, if a branchline lacked a passenger service on a particular day (sundays in some cases), you might have got the trip working being made with a toad instead but I have not seen any photographic proof of this. If you can tell us where you modelling and when, I may be able to give more details. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev_Lewis Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 On the rear cover of British Railways Western Region In Colour by Laurence Walters, there's a photo of a milk empties out of Ealing. The make up of the rolling stock is: A 6 wheel milk tanker, a Collet full brake, five more 6 wheeled tankers, four fitted vans and what looks like a horse box at the rear. As all the stock is vacuum fitted I'd assume a Toad wouldn't be needed. Also inside there's a photo of a Western hauling a rake of twelve 6 wheeled milk tankers, no toad or full brake in sight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Yes. Milk trains had a brake for each section that was to be split so you often see milk trains with brakes interspersed throughout the train. As the train was split up you eventually got fewer sections down to a one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted May 1, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 1, 2012 If you can tell us where you modelling and when, I may be able to give more details. As per the signature block - Mainline London (Outer/To the West of/) Urban, late 1940s. I guess the Ealing milk empties photo was all empty traffic not just the milk. Horseboxes usually at the front if loaded. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 British Railways Western Region In Colour by Laurence Walters, ... inside there's a photo of a Western hauling a rake of twelve 6 wheeled milk tankers, no toad or full brake in sight. Obviously not having seen the book, I dont know the photo, but that would almost certainly be post-1968, after agreement was reached to allow guards to travel in loco (rear) cabs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev_Lewis Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Obviously not having seen the book, I dont know the photo, but that would almost certainly be post-1968, after agreement was reached to allow guards to travel in loco (rear) cabs. Actually it's not. The service is hauled by a Castle and dated 1962. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Actually it's not. The service is hauled by a Castle and dated 1962. Since he was referring to (and quoted) the comment about the rake hauled by the Western, his comment is likely correct. There was no need for a brake van at that point as the whole train had continuous automatic brakes. Regarding the OP, depending on vintage, the full brake might carry churns as well, although if there was any significant churn traffic there would be a Siphon to get the ventilation (cooling). Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Actually it's not. The service is hauled by a Castle and dated 1962. In which case I am suitably curious as to where the guard was (but not curious enough to speculate further on the basis of the info so far made available). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 In which case I am suitably curious as to where the guard was (but not curious enough to speculate further on the basis of the info so far made available). There has been a bit of confusion between the 2 photographs referenced. The 1962 shot hauled by the Castle does indeed have a BG in the formation (a Hawksworth rather than a Collett though). The Western shot dates from 1975 by which time BGs were no longer required. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 I can't remember seeing any full-brake on the Whitland- Kensington train from 1966 (when I started at Llanelli Boys' Grammar, which had the main line in clear view) onwards. However, there was an article in one of the modelling monthlies last month on the potential of the West London line; one of the photos used for illustration was a shot of an 09, two tanks and a Stanier BGZ, taken at Vauxhall as late as 1975. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 The mandatory use of brake vehicles in fully fitted trains ended in 1968 so a BG would not longer have been obligatory after that date. You mentioned that you started in 1966 (September at a guess?). That means that the brake coaches would have disappeared only 16 months later leaving several years of brake-less trains for you to remember. As for the Vauxhall shot, a milk train would still have been able to include other passenger rated vehicles if necessary. IIRC the SR milk trains often had a few vehicles for carrying newspapers as their timings made them convenient for getting the dailies out to the provinces. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev_Lewis Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 In which case I am suitably curious as to where the guard was (but not curious enough to speculate further on the basis of the info so far made available). Many, many apologies. It was late and I didn't read your reply properly. I'll go sit in the nauighty corner now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 The mandatory use of brake vehicles in fully fitted trains ended in 1968 so a BG would not longer have been obligatory after that date. You mentioned that you started in 1966 (September at a guess?). That means that the brake coaches would have disappeared only 16 months later leaving several years of brake-less trains for you to remember. As for the Vauxhall shot, a milk train would still have been able to include other passenger rated vehicles if necessary. IIRC the SR milk trains often had a few vehicles for carrying newspapers as their timings made them convenient for getting the dailies out to the provinces. It was indeed September 1966 that I started at Llan Gram- I suppose I might have been distracted by the Hunter GR9s coming over at about 250'.... The Vauxhall shot was odd; it was definitely a trip working to unload the two tanks, so why the brake? The train would have run to the sidings where Waterloo International now is to run round; not somewhere where parcels might be unloaded or loaded. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Many, many apologies. It was late and I didn't read your reply properly. I'll go sit in the nauighty corner now. No probs Kev, we've all done it; the memory often plays tricks with what we think we've seen in books or mags. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Yes. Milk trains had a brake for each section that was to be split so you often see milk trains with brakes interspersed throughout the train. As the train was split up you eventually got fewer sections down to a one. there is a good shot of this with a maroon western in the 1966 british transport film Forward to first principles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 The GWR/early Western Region had a purpose built diagarm 013 4 wheel full brake for milk trains, most of them branded for a particluar train. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted May 3, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 3, 2012 The GWR/early Western Region had a purpose built diagarm 013 4 wheel full brake for milk trains, most of them branded for a particluar train. http://www.flickr.co...745/4968634454/ Mike Wiltshire Fantastic. Thanks Mike. Must have a ponder as to whether I could kit bash this....................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 The GWR/early Western Region had a purpose built diagarm 013 4 wheel full brake for milk trains, most of them branded for a particluar train. Handsome little vehicles (and just begging for a private commission ) but there were only 4 built. IIRC they were withdrawn by the mid 50s although at least one survived into the 60s in departmental use. I suspect it was 1399 which is how it came to be preserved. I have seen a picture of it in the 60s in unfitted grey in an engineer train. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted May 3, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 3, 2012 The Vauxhall shot was odd; it was definitely a trip working to unload the two tanks, so why the brake? The train would have run to the sidings where Waterloo International now is to run round; not somewhere where parcels might be unloaded or loaded. Is the clue in the need to run round? Removing the loco left the train relying upon the handbrakes of two loaded tanks? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted May 3, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 3, 2012 Handsome little vehicles (and just begging for a private commission ) . Extra lottery ticket when I go into Town today!............. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 just begging for a private commission Be cheaper to build the Blacksmith kit - if it's any good.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 I've built a reduction (by Blacksmith) of their kit and haven't spotted anything other than I fitted the underframe backwards compared with photographs, after following the instructions. Getting hold of one now might be more difficult? It has been said the real things were created from cut up ambulance trains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePipersSon Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 It has been said the real things were created from cut up ambulance trains. I believe these vans were converted from pharmacy cars built for the ambulance trains in WW1 (GW Siphons - Slinn & Clarke). Also, it appears that GWR branded a lot of their Siphons, PBV and Toads with their usual diagrams. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted May 3, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 3, 2012 I've built a reduction (by Blacksmith) of their kit and haven't spotted anything other than I fitted the underframe backwards compared with photographs, after following the instructions. Was the kit complete or what components did you have to add? "Get em while you can..." - Their website is up and running - is there an issue with Blacksmith that I need to know about? Excellent Vauxhall/Devon milk stuff here: http://svsfilm.com/nineelms/torr.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.