Full Brake for a Milk Train?

[buffalo]

Would horse boxes go with the cattle vans?

For the reasons Ian mentions, the normal answer is no. However there were some interesting exceptions. Just as with passengers, the variations in equine transport owe much to the British class system. The horses that travelled in horse boxes were the higher class of beasts, mostly riding and race horses belonging to wealthy individuals. Ordinary working horses were not afforded such luxury accommodation. For example, military movements would often include horseboxes for the officers' horses whilst the ordinary troopers' horses were conveyed in cattle wagons. In some cases, especially during WW1, pack animals such as mules would be provided with a third class of accommodation in the form of open wagons with added rails. These looked rather like coke wagons but had additional fittings for tethering the animals. Another possible exception was when special trains were run to move the entire stock of a farm between different parts of the country. These might include cattle wagons for sheep, cattle and, perhaps, working horses, though a wealthier farmer might also have riding horses for which a box might be provided.

 

Nick

[jcm@gwr]

Interesting thread, even more so that no-one has mentioned the 'Beetle'

cattle wagon. I would have thought this was considered the same as the

horse boxes [Paco], esp as they had drovers compartments.

These were for prize bulls and cattle, so should have been regarded as

important as racehorses, not in the same league as the 'Mex' traffic.

I am, of course, more than happy to be corrected/enlightened.

Cheers, Jeff

[Guest dilbert]

jcm, Though the Beetles were organised in the Wagon index they were rated for express duties as opposed to the Coaching index. A case of animal snobbery within the GWR indices ?... dilbert

[jcm@gwr]

jcm, Though the Beetles were organised in the Wagon index they were rated for express duties as opposed to the Coaching index. A case of animal snobbery within the GWR indices ?... dilbert

dilbert

Therefore the Beetle's were classified in a similar way to the Paco's?

Which is my point with regards to the question about horseboxes and cattlevans in the same train.

ie you could run them together as they are both rated at higher speed, and were both used for more

valuable cargo.

But, I agree that there could have been some snobbery involved!

Cheers, Jeff

[Guest dilbert]

Which is my point with regards to the question about horseboxes and cattlevans in the same train.

ie you could run them together as they are both rated at higher speed, and were both used for more

valuable cargo.

 

HI Jeff

 

In theory, the reply to your question is Yes... I suspect this would have been on special occasions such as participation at a county fayre as both traffic types were intrinsically different... dilbert

[MarkAustin]

Often, when horses were loaded into cattle wagons, the open sides were covered with tarpaulins. Apparently cattle were phlegmatic animals who didn't mind seeing the country flying by, but horses were prone to panic.

[M.I.B]

Often, when horses were loaded into cattle wagons, the open sides were covered with tarpaulins. Apparently cattle were phlegmatic animals who didn't mind seeing the country flying by, but horses were prone to panic.

 

Cows aren't usually tall enough to see out of the side vents of a MEX. Horses are.

 

Horses would have to be loaded first then sheeted afterwards - they would be hell to load into a dark MEX. They are quite happy to go into a horsebox at night if there is a weak lamp at worst, but total darkness is a no-no for dobbins.

[OnTheBranchline]

One example of a fruit train would have been the banana trains from Avonmouth (near Bristol) which ran to major population centres in the U.K, such as London and Birmingham.

 

Apparently in the 1930's Elders and Fyffes had a fleet of 36 vessels importing bananas into Avonmouth, which was the biggest banana importing centre in Europe at the time.

 

Three ships arrived each fortnight and the GWR provided a fleet of vacuum fitted steam heated railway vans specifically for this banana trade.Routes/paths were reserved in the Service Time Tables to allow these special steam heated trains to reach major UK cities quickly. For example the Birmingham Moor Street banana train ran as required(RR) under an express freight © headcode taking 4hrs 20mins to complete the journey from Avonmouth to Birmingham.

 

I think there were also extra special "perishables" fast goods trains from Penzance for many years conveying potatoes, broccoli, fish, fruit and flowers from West Cornwall and the Scilly Isles, because the mild climate in the area meant that, fish apart, the produce was available earlier, ready to go market and could command high prices in London,Bristol, Birmingham etc.

 

Special "tomato" trains were run also from Southampton and Weymouth to cope with Channel Island (Guernsey) early season tomatoes.

 

Other regions are available - you need to remember that historically(and even today) the U.K. has always imported a large percentage of it's food requirements and this would have needed similar railway traffic arrangements to be in place at most major import centres until relatively recent times.

 

Other RMWebbers may be able to provide details of similar workings in other parts of the country

 

Don't forget that some railways (the GWR,for example) had both passenger-rated and 'goods' Fruit vans; the passenger-rated vehicles could be attached to main-line passenger services, benefitting from their faster transit times. The goods fruit vans might be conveyed as tail traffic for short distances, but would ultimately be attached to other goods vehicles and forwarded under freight timings.

The Cornish broccoli (in fact cauliflowers) trains would be composed of a mixture of stock, apart from specialised Fruit vans; there would be cattle vans and even open wagons amongst them; similar workings conveyed new potatoes. Flowers were usually sent from the Scillies (via Penzance) in passenger-rated stock attached to express parcels or passenger trains- the preferred stock would appear to be Siphon Gs in later years, as these had fold-down shelves on the sides, as well as plenty of ventilation. The Cornish traffic, along with the imported traffic from the various ports (Barry was another centre for the banana traffic on the GWR), was sufficient to merit 'block' trains to the major centres.

Other areas producing large amounts of fruit and vegetable traffic were that around Evesham, and the Fens (notably around Ely and Whitemoor); the Forfar branch in Scotland had a very specialised traffic in seed potatoes, despatched in ordinary vans to destinations throughout the UK.

Another GWR speciality were strawberries from the Cheddar area- again, I believe these had Siphon Gs dedicated to their conveyance in later years.

 

Would the fruit trains be pulled by a Grange typically?

[N15class]

Southampton used to have a lot of banana traffric too, the Southern built a load of vans for the transport too.

[hmrspaul]

Often, when horses were loaded into cattle wagons, the open sides were covered with tarpaulins. Apparently cattle were phlegmatic animals who didn't mind seeing the country flying by, but horses were prone to panic.

 

This fear factor isn't in the official instructions, Horses, asses and mules had to be sheeted in cattle wagons between 1 October and 31 March. They had to be ventilated, which meant raising the tarpulin up over the middle - so they would be able to see out anyway. (By the way sheep shorn within 60 days of the loading had to be tarpulined between 1 November and 30 April).

[Coach bogie]

 

Would the fruit trains be pulled by a Grange typically?

 

Cornish broc trains were usually specials and used what ever was available including 'borrowed' locos. Interesting BTF film showing Canton Castles being sent light engine to help out. Note the Grange at 55 secs. Opening shots show trains being loaded.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I_TJSlStlw

 

Look through the books. Halls. Castles. Granges all appear on long trains of cattle wagons used for the season.

 

There was more frequent fruit traffic from Weymouth with crops from the Channel Islands coming in. The Bachmann fruit van was frequently used. Here Granges were the favoured loco, due to the climb out of Weymouth, where it was claimed a Grange just had the edge over a Hall.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[The Stationmaster]

'Train Time' is a lovely film - very much a railway long gone alas (and snips of it reappeared in later BT films).

[Rugd1022]

Fantastic bit of film there.... all the more remarkable for the fact that the Grange seen leaving Marazion is one of only two which received BR mixed traffic lined black livery!

 

A nice glimpse of Paddington behind the closing credits too... all those lovely Collett and Hawksworth coaches, great stuff.

[Karhedron]

Fantastic bit of film there.... all the more remarkable for the fact that the Grange seen leaving Marazion is one of only two which received BR mixed traffic lined black livery!

Given the date I am pretty sure it must be 6809 - Burghclere Grange as this was the only grange in lined livery at that time and it was a Penzance engine.

 

Actually, is that definitely a Grange and not a Manor? The view is not clear enough to make out the number but it looks like it is running with a Churchward 3500 gallon tender. I think that 6809 was paired with a 4000 gallon tender at this point (I don't have a copy of "Power of the Granges" handy so I cannot be certain).

 

But the 10 BR built Manors were painted in lined MT livery and paired with 3500 gallon tenders so my hunch is that the loco at 0:55 is actually a Manor. If anyone would care to argue the case for 6809 I am more than happy to be persuaded.

 

EDIT - Just checked and 6809 did still have a smaller tender in 1952 so it could well be the loco in the film.

[Rugd1022]

Looking at the proportions of the loco overall I'd say it's a Grange.... in comparison, Manors looked a bit odd with their smaller boilers...

 

Having the allocation info for the first ten Manors in 1952 would help, alas I don't have it to hand.... were there any in Cornwall at that time? The only Manors I can think of that were definitely photographed in the County at that time were palin black (by Brian Butt, care of Bradford Barton and one or two Dick Riley shots which have appeared in GWR Journal).

[The Stationmaster]

Looking at the proportions of the loco overall I'd say it's a Grange.... in comparison, Manors looked a bit odd with their smaller boilers...

 

Having the allocation info for the first ten Manors in 1952 would help, alas I don't have it to hand.... were there any in Cornwall at that time? The only Manors I can think of that were definitely photographed in the County at that time were palin black (by Brian Butt, care of Bradford Barton and one or two Dick Riley shots which have appeared in GWR Journal).

Very difficult to mistake a 'Grange' for a 'Manor' at a glance and vice versa, but not quite so difficult - from some angles - to mistake a 'Garange' for a 'Hall' and vice versa, until you got a closer look.

 

According to Longworth Penzance had one 'Manor' (7806) in 1951 and Laira had 3, he gives 'snapshot' info so the next year he shows is 1954 and allthough Laira still had some Penzance didn't. Newton had some throughout those years and teh RCTS book doesn't list Penzance as having one in 1953 or 1947 which suggests 7806 might only have been there for a short while perhaps?

[Karhedron]

It looks like none of the BR-built Manors were allocated to the south-west in the early 50s. These were the only examples to carry lined MT livery, the original 20 going straight into plain black (Except 7804 which was given unlined green livery for piloting the CRE over the south devon banks). Based on this I agree with the majority oppinion that the loco shown is indeed 6809. It was the only loco in the area at the time in lined livery and smaller than a Hall.

[chrisf]

Something just ocurred to me. What is the position regarding copyright of video clips? Did whoever posted "Train Time" on YouTube commit a breach, given that the film is commercially available on DVD, and is the position made worse by adding the link from this site?

 

Chris

[The Stationmaster]

Something just ocurred to me. What is the position regarding copyright of video clips? Did whoever posted "Train Time" on YouTube commit a breach, given that the film is commercially available on DVD, and is the position made worse by adding the link from this site?

Chris

This has gone through my mind at various times - there are large chunks of/complete BT Films on You Tube and all of them which I have come across (invariably via links from RMweb) have been re-released on a commercial basis on dvd by the BFI. Regrettably a number of links on the BFI site are coming up with 404 errors but there is an implication that it is possible to purchase downloads of short films or scenes from them and there is also a mention of sharing (again a 404 error).

 

I have just tried to access 'Train Time' through the BFI site and it is there in full but you have to be registered with the site to access or download it - I'm not so I couldn't. There is no mention of copyright on the packaging of the BFI dvds of BTF films but they are noted as 'copy protected' (no doubt the technos can get round that) and I can't find anything about copyright relating to BTF films on the BFI site. Not much of an answer but with the implication that these films are available on a commercial basis there is - I suppose - also an implication that BFI would wish to protect its business.

[OnTheBranchline]

What's really the difference between a Grange and Manor in what their duties were?

[jjnewitt]

What's really the difference between a Grange and Manor in what their duties were?

 

The Manors (blue route restriction) were essentially lighterweight versions of the Granges (red route restriction) and so would tend to be found operating on routes where the larger engines were not permitted eg the cambrian system, MSWJR. Of course it wasn't as hard and fast as that but that was the general idea. Both were very much mixed traffic engines but the Granges seemed to work more freight duties to which there 5'8" wheels were well suited when compared to other red route restriction engines eg the Halls. The Manors worked pretty much anything from The Cambrian Coast Express to mixed goods. It's interesting to note just how similar the two classes are. They shared a large number of commom parts. The chassis were externally virtually identical save for longer frames at the back on the Granges to allow for the bigger number one boiler and firebox. The Cabs were pretty much the same as well. Both beautiful engines. Possibly Swindon's finest products.

[OnTheBranchline]

The Manors (blue route restriction) were essentially lighterweight versions of the Granges (red route restriction) and so would tend to be found operating on routes where the larger engines were not permitted eg the cambrian system, MSWJR. Of course it wasn't as hard and fast as that but that was the general idea. Both were very much mixed traffic engines but the Granges seemed to work more freight duties to which there 5'8" wheels were well suited when compared to other red route restriction engines eg the Halls. The Manors worked pretty much anything from The Cambrian Coast Express to mixed goods. It's interesting to note just how similar the two classes are. They shared a large number of commom parts. The chassis were externally virtually identical save for longer frames at the back on the Granges to allow for the bigger number one boiler and firebox. The Cabs were pretty much the same as well. Both beautiful engines. Possibly Swindon's finest products.

 

And the Hall class was a more freight version of the Grange class?

 

And the 28xx/38xx were more of a heavy freight version of the Hall class?

 

I think that's my understanding.

[jjnewitt]

Re BR built Manors in the South West, 7824 was Liara engine for a couple of years from 1952 to 1954. She had a Churchward 3500 gallon intermediate tender from new but aquired a riveted 3500 gallon tender in 1953. She was the only one to be allocated to a shed in the South West while they wore lined black. I've looked at that film a couple of times and am still not 100% sure but if I had to put money on it I'd say it was 6809.

[jjnewitt]

And the Hall class was a more freight version of the Grange class?

 

And the 28xx/38xx were more of a heavy freight version of the Hall class?

 

I think that's my understanding.

 

The Halls had 6'0" wheels and so would be better suited to passenger work or flatter routes though they worked their fare share of freights. They evolved from the Saints. The Granges were built as replacements for the 4300 Moguls though they were built with a heavier axle loading.

 

The 2800/2884 classes were very much a heavy freight engine rather than a mixed traffic one and their natural home would be at the head of long unfitted freights. Of the engines mentioned they came first.

[Michael Delamar]

not GWR but thought it might still be of interest.

 

Oxenholme by Kerry Parker (KP), on Flickr