Fat Controller Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 The Halls had 6'0" wheels and so would be better suited to passenger work or flatter routes though they worked their fare share of freights. They evolved from the Saints. The Granges were built as replacements for the 4300 Moguls though they were built with a heavier axle loading. The 2800/2884 classes were very much a heavy freight engine rather than a mixed traffic one and their natural home would be at the head of long unfitted freights. Of the engines mentioned they came first. The GWR did, of course, have an 'Express Goods' 2-8-0- the 47xx class; I believe these were often found on the Perishables workings from the SW. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 23, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 23, 2012 The GWR did, of course, have an 'Express Goods' 2-8-0- the 47xx class; I believe these were often found on the Perishables workings from the SW. Sort of - the 47XX had a number of booked overnight fast goods workings so they were normally only available for other work at weekends as I understand things (hence them appearing - very much disliked by enginemen in the role - on Summer Saturday passenger jobs). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Sort of - the 47XX had a number of booked overnight fast goods workings so they were normally only available for other work at weekends as I understand things (hence them appearing - very much disliked by enginemen in the role - on Summer Saturday passenger jobs). There is a much photographed (on the sea wall) local passenger working from Newton Abbot to Exeter by 47xx as a rare daylight fill in turn, prior to returning to London on the evening fitted. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted October 21, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 21, 2012 So when you say full brake, the GWR would just couple an empty brake coach to a line of milk tankers and Siphons? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
London cambrian Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I think its more that a full brake such as a snake C or collet full brake coach would be used, the evidence would suggest more that, or a dedicated milk brake van (vac fitted sepcially built vehicles) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 So when you say full brake, the GWR would just couple an empty brake coach to a line of milk tankers and Siphons? Yes. It was necessary as prior to 1968, the guard needed somewhere to travel. Milk tankers were continously braked IIRC so I don't think it was needed for extra braking force. The GWR did, of course, have an 'Express Goods' 2-8-0- the 47xx class; I believe these were often found on the Perishables workings from the SW. Yes indeed. They weren't allowed over the Royal Albert Bridge into Cornwall but I think they used to take over on some milk trains at Plymouth for the run up to London. I have a picture of one at North Road in 1956 on the Kensington milk train. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted October 21, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 21, 2012 How long would be the typical milk train and how long would be the typical fruit train (broccoli for example)? Would the fruit train also have a full brake? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 So when you say full brake, the GWR would just couple an empty brake coach to a line of milk tankers and Siphons? It was not ususally any spare brake. The GWR had specialist Diagram O13 milk train brake vans fitted with large doors for loading churns etc. In addition there were full brakes also used, old 4 wheel Diagram V3/4 brakes (as Shire Scene sides on Ratios), old Dean K15 type short 40ft bogie brakes (as the old K's kit) even a clerestory ex TPO coach. In BR days some of the older Churchward and Collett brakes saw out their last days on such duties as the new Mk 1 full brakes took over main line duties. The GWR had a tendency to allocate specific vehicles to specific duties with the duty branding on the side. Typical branding 'Milk Train Brake van to and from London' or more specific to a location such as 'Frome & Cricklewood' Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 It was not ususally any spare brake. The GWR had specialist Diagram O13 milk train brake vans fitted with large doors for loading churns etc. In addition there were full brakes also used, old 4 wheel Diagram V3/4 brakes (as Shire Scene sides on Ratios), old Dean K15 type short 40ft bogie brakes (as the old K's kit) even a clerestory ex TPO coach. In BR days some of the older Churchward and Collett brakes saw out their last days on such duties as the new Mk 1 full brakes took over main line duties. The GWR had a tendency to allocate specific vehicles to specific duties with the duty branding on the side. To be fair, there were only 4 or 5 O13 milk brakes. An old full-brake coach was usually the order of the day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 How long would be the typical milk train and how long would be the typical fruit train (broccoli for example)? Would the fruit train also have a full brake? Not sure there was a typical train. I have photos infront of me of milk trains of 16 vehicles comprised of a variety of 6 wheel syphons. One often published Maurice Early shot has the unique rotary valve 2935 hauling just two tankers and an ex TPO clerestory on its way to Wootten Bassett. Some trains would pick up en route with trains getting longer on the way to London. One train I have modelled splits with some of the train for Frome with three vehicles continuing on for Yeovil. Broc was often transported in cattle wagons and would have the mandatory toad at the rear for the guard, whether the train was fully fitted or not. I only have one shot showing a complete Broc special (unfortunately many photographers concentrated on the engine) and it has at least 40 wagons beind the Hall. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 To be fair, there were only 4 or 5 O13 milk brakes. An old full-brake coach was usually the order of the day. True there were only 4 built, hence the list of other vehicles specifically allocated to milk duties. Mike Wiltshire Good shot of old Dean branded brake being loaded with churns here. http://www.gwr.org.uk/nochurns.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 We do seem to be repeating much of the content of page one of this thread E.g., the point about there only being four O13s. How long would be the typical milk train and how long would be the typical fruit train (broccoli for example)? Would the fruit train also have a full brake? As others have said, it varied. However, in general, it's fair to say that it varied according to where you were. In the early days of GWR churn traffic in four and six-wheel siphons, one or two vehicles might be attached to a branch passenger train and pick up their load from several stations. In other cases a special train of no more than a handful of siphons with its own dedicated brake vehicle would be used. Several such trains would then be concentrated at a single point into a larger train that would proceed to the big city dairy. En route, it might pick up further sections from other sources, so when it arrived at its final destination it would comprise many small groups of siphons plus their corresponding brake vehicle. Empties would be returned by reversing the process, each small section staying with its own brake. As time went on, larger siphons and larger brake vehicles were used, but the practice remained essentially the same. Later, when milk was concentrated at local creameries by road and transferred to tanks, much the same happened with long trains being assembled from many smaller ones. The only real change was when brake vehicles were no longer required, it was no longer obvious that the long trains arriving at the final destination were, in fact, many small local trains joined together. As to broccoli, actually more usuallly cauliflower, there's a film somewhere based around the need to provide an increasded number of trains to deal with a peak in the traffic. The clear message is that the size and number of trains running was very much dependent on how much needed to be moved. I'm sure the film was mentioned on a previous similar thread and, hopefully, someone will be able to find the link. btw 'broccoli' is a vegetable. Just an odd thought, is there any significance in transporting such veg in cattle wagons in contrast to the use of siphons for fruit traffic such as strawberries? Nick edit: fxed wrong quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 btw 'broccoli' is a vegetable. Just an odd thought, is there any significance in transporting such veg in cattle wagons in contrast to the use of siphons for fruit traffic such as strawberries? I've wondered about that. My guess is that the broccoli 'season' was short, and at a time when the Fruits and Siphons were also in peak demand for other perishables, so maybe surplus cattle wagons were pressed into service for that particular crop. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I've wondered about that. My guess is that the broccoli 'season' was short, and at a time when the Fruits and Siphons were also in peak demand for other perishables, so maybe surplus cattle wagons were pressed into service for that particular crop. Yes, it's probably as mundane as that. I was just idly speculating about passenger rated fruit and freight veg, and comparing that with other examples of 'class' on the railways, e.g. officers' horses in boxes, other ranks' in cattle wagons, etc. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted October 21, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2012 "Lots of very 'ungry people up in London!" says the "farmer" in the film, trying to get his broccoli on its way. Wonderfully wooden film in places, matched by priceless sequences of trains in the early '50s. "Train Time" BT Films. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I thought that the broccoli traffic was so huge, and over a short period that virtually "anything with wheels" was used on the traffic........ As long as they are ventilated wheels, but I've just googled UK broccoli season, and it seems to be comparatively long (May to October), certainly far longer than any of the fruits, so maybe the frantic broccolli-stuffing sessions into the cattle wagons of those trains emanating from Marazion has become immortalised from the film into an ill-founded modellers' dictum? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 "Lots of very 'ungry people up in London!" says the "farmer" in the film, trying to get his broccoli on its way. Wonderfully wooden film in places, matched by priceless sequences of trains in the early '50s. "Train Time" BT Films. Thanks, Ian, that's the one. See here on YouTube. ...I've just googled UK broccoli season... and, apparently, the cauliflower season is much the same. Why did the GWR call them broccoli? Nick edit: because I keep making a mess of quotes this evening Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Don't think that it is particularly unfounded, I had it on pretty much first(ish!) hand authority that such trains were a bit of a rush job....... All perishables were a bit of a rush job! (I'm thinking Dean Single taking the up Swindon milk through Sonning Cutting at a wickedly breathtaking pace...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 21, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2012 Reputedly the cattle wagons which were used for 'the broccolos' (as the trains were known to most staff) were put into that traffic because they were surplus from their originally intended line of work and they were very well ventilated - which helped keep the traffic in 'fresh' condition. As far as milk trains Guards Vans were concerned they were provided according to the Marshalling instructions for the various sections and the way in which those sections were worked and remarshalled enroute. Thus some trains had more than one Guards Van although only one would be in use by the Guard at any one time. According to the Marshalling Instructions there is no particular reference to the type of vans used or their running numbers etc although that could well have changed over the years. Pre-war - and I believe well into the 1950s - most of the milk tank trains were marshalled or sectionalised at west Ealing and London destinations, including those off the GWR were tripped from there. Maybe one day, when I've got time I'll add some of the workings to this thread - but there were a lot in the late 1930s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 We may have been talking about the start of the season....when all them Ungry Londoners were waiting for the first taste of the stuff......That would make more sense of the use of whatever was available.....same as the highly seasonal flower traffic..... I think Mickey's got it - the season for 'primeurs' started in the South West, hence the urgency to get their crop to market before the main growing areas like Lincolnshire caught up. Same no doubt applies to the flower traffic from the Scillies, Channel Isles etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 To return to the idea of passenger brakes on milk trains.. I chanced upon this link today:- http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRCoachLetteringIssue.pdf Page 59 shows lettering for a six-wheel passenger brake specifically for milk traffic. Unless I'm very much mistaken, the illustration is of a Thompson BZ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted October 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 29, 2012 On the question of the length of milk tanks there has been some chat on this on the 2mm group and it was suggested that the maximum for a King was 17 tankers. I have no personal knowledge as they probably ran on the fast lines as the slow ones seemed full of 28's on long freight trains. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Whilst searching for short milk trains after reading this topic, I came across these photo's of GWR 5358 hauling three milk tank and what looks like an LMS Stove R on the tail. http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsrh281.htm http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsrh281a.htm quote, GWR 2-6-0 Mogul No 5385 is seen passing through the station on an up short train of three six-wheel milk tank wagons. Number (5358) was built as a member of GWR's 43xx class at Swindon in July 1920 and remained in service until withdrawn in July 1962 from Llanelly shed to be scrapped in June 1963 by J Cashmore of Newport. C1937 Question 1. Is it actually a Stove R? Question 2. Did the GWR have any 6-wheeled vans similar to a Stove R? Thanks in advance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I am not sure it is a Stove-R. I remember asking about this photo a few years ago. The consensus at the time was that it was something like an old Barry 6-wheeled brake coach although I am not certain. I am not aware of the GWR having anything really equivelent to the Stove-R. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Another one that's been mentioned before is a photo of 2204 with what looks much more like a Stove R and a few milk tanks leaving the Burnham branch at Highbidge and joing the GWR down main line in August 1963. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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