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Rules regarding private industrial locos on main lines...?


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I have been looking around for the rights and wrongs of operating private industrial locos onto the main lines and visa versa ....

 

that is would all exchanges of goods vehicles taken place at exchange sidings or would for example a GWR loco shunted wagons into a factory complex or a private loco shunted wagons into a goods yard area via main line trackage ...???

 

any help and rules know regards these operations would be helpful ....thanks ..

 

Regards Trevor ... :sungum:

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This topic - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/43989-industrial-locos-on-the-main-line/ - goes into some of the rules but in general terms both of your scenarios were permitted where specially authorised. I suspect many private sidings were shunted by the main line loco as only large or busy locations would justify their own loco. Private locos routinely operating into railway company goods yards might not have been quite so common but it did happen, at least one of the Speyside distilleries had running rights over BR to the nearest station goods yard.

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Basically as detailed in the relevant Sectional Appendix (but might be in Local Instructions in some cases - pracrice varied over the years and between the Regions) but here's an example from 1960 relating to Bristol Corporation's docks at Avonmouth (n.b. 'the Commission' means the British Transport Commission - i.e. BR in this instance).

 

'Bristol Corporation engines are allowed to use the Commission's lines at Gloucester Road Crossing for the purpose of working the Commission's Passenger trains or Coaching stock to or from the Corporation Transport Sheds. Certain Bristol Corporation engines, approved by the Commission's Running & Maintenance Officer and worked by enginemen who have been passed by the Commission's Inspectors are allowed to work over the Commission's lines between Holesmouth Jcn and Hallen Marsh Jcn with traffic to & from the Docks and the National Smelting Company's Sidings.'

 

(for info Hallen Marsh Jcn was 422 yards from Holesmouth Jcn but in order to get to national Smelting's Sdgs the move would have proceeded a bit further than that on BR running lines. As you will have gathered from other posts an 'approved engine' was 'plated' to indicate that t was permitted to work over 'big railway' owned lines.)

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I think that many railway companies inspected privately owned (i.e. industrial) locos before they were allowed onto their track. I believe this was to ensure flanges were not too worn, brakes worked etc.

 

I believe plates were often attached to approved locomotives.

 

I just can't remember where I got this information.

 

David

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Basically as detailed in the relevant Sectional Appendix (but might be in Local Instructions in some cases - pracrice varied over the years and between the Regions) but here's an example from 1960 relating to Bristol Corporation's docks at Avonmouth (n.b. 'the Commission' means the British Transport Commission - i.e. BR in this instance).

 

'Bristol Corporation engines are allowed to use the Commission's lines at Gloucester Road Crossing for the purpose of working the Commission's Passenger trains or Coaching stock to or from the Corporation Transport Sheds. Certain Bristol Corporation engines, approved by the Commission's Running & Maintenance Officer and worked by enginemen who have been passed by the Commission's Inspectors are allowed to work over the Commission's lines between Holesmouth Jcn and Hallen Marsh Jcn with traffic to & from the Docks and the National Smelting Company's Sidings.'

 

(for info Hallen Marsh Jcn was 422 yards from Holesmouth Jcn but in order to get to national Smelting's Sdgs the move would have proceeded a bit further than that on BR running lines. As you will have gathered from other posts an 'approved engine' was 'plated' to indicate that t was permitted to work over 'big railway' owned lines.)

 

Glad you quoted that - I was recently told categorically by a GW expert that no industrial loco was ever allowed onto GW/BR tracks and vice versa. He tried to claim this was true all over the country, but of course there were plenty of clear-cut examples elsewhere to disprove him, particularly in the North East.

 

On non-BR lines, restrictions on BR locos might be due to physical constraints, rather than bureaucratic rules - sharp curves, lightly-laid track and weight restrictions on bridges.

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Trevor,

.

This is probably the best book on the subject.

.

Published by the Industrial Railway Society in 1998

.

ISBN:- 1 901 556 06 9

.

Paperback, and only a few quid - try their website.

.

Your 'contact' who claimed the GWR would never allow industrial locomotives to operate on their system is talking through his proverbial @ ...... there are in excess of 270 locomotives listed in this booklet as registered to operate on the GWR system, albeit the registration of each loco stipulates the section(s) of GWR track they could operate on.

e.g.

"Cardiff - Dowlais Works and Foreshore" (this was usually for steelworks locos to tip slag)

or

"Over GWR running line near Jersey Marine".

 

Brian R

IRS.pdf

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There would have been local "arrangements" when necessary - not just the formal ones.

 

When the lift bridge across to the Isle of Sheppey was hit by a vessel and out of action, whatever was available was hired to keep some sort of train service running on the island.

 

It is rumoured that a loco of the Wantage Tramway once rescued a slip coach that failed to stop in the right place at Wantage Road on the GW main line.

 

Some industrial sidings would be shunted by horses or even road vehicles. You should not assume sidings were shunted by a main line loco, just because the private company didn't have its own loco.

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In the book "Severn and Wye Railway, vol 1" it is stated on p65:-

"In 1920 the Lydney Tinplate works provided an additional siding within the works and asked the Joint Committee to deliver traffic and perform shunting duties similar to those carried out at the existing sidings.

"Keen to establish a basis for raising the charges, the Committee arranged a survey of the time spent shunting the enlarged layout. However, it quickly transpired that the improvementsmeant that the time shunting the works had actually decreased by about 10 minutes per day to an average of 2 hours, whilst the number of wagons dealt with remained the same, at 32 per day. Not surprisingly, it was decided that there was no case for asking Thomas & Co. to pay increased charges!"

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Glad you quoted that - I was recently told categorically by a GW expert that no industrial loco was ever allowed onto GW/BR tracks and vice versa. He tried to claim this was true all over the country, but of course there were plenty of clear-cut examples elsewhere to disprove him, particularly in the North East.

 

This one is even better - GWR 1946 -

'Messrs G.K.B. (Guest, Keen and Baldwins Ltd) and the I.C.I. trains are permitted to cross the Company's lines at Dowlais No.1 from the Ivor Works side of the line to the factory side and vice versa.'

 

But then it got better still :O -

'A travelling steam crane belonging to I.C.I. Company fitted with a jib 30ft long is also permitted to cross the Railway, but not to convey other vehicles, in the same way, provided the jib is in the lowered position and protected by a suitable match truck.'

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The locomotives of the Nevill's Dock and Railway Company, which escaped both Grouping and Nationalisation, crossed the Paddington- Fishguard main line on the flat in at least two places in Llanelli- at the Old Castle Crossing box, and next to Llanelli West box. It also used, in latter years, part of the Sandy Junction line of the BP&GVR to access Llanelli Foundry.

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There would have been local "arrangements" when necessary - not just the formal ones.

 

When the lift bridge across to the Isle of Sheppey was hit by a vessel and out of action, whatever was available was hired to keep some sort of train service running on the island.

 

It is rumoured that a loco of the Wantage Tramway once rescued a slip coach that failed to stop in the right place at Wantage Road on the GW main line.

 

Some industrial sidings would be shunted by horses or even road vehicles. You should not assume sidings were shunted by a main line loco, just because the private company didn't have its own loco.

 

Teignmouth Dock had modified tractor(s) only one at a time I believe for shunting.

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Thank you for all your replies so far ...

 

Flyingsignalman......interesting..

In the book "Severn and Wye Railway, vol 1" it is stated on p65:-

"In 1920 the Lydney Tinplate works provided an additional siding within the works and asked the Joint Committee to deliver traffic and perform shunting duties similar to those carried out at the existing sidings.

"Keen to establish a basis for raising the charges, the Committee arranged a survey of the time spent shunting the enlarged layout. However, it quickly transpired that the improvementsmeant that the time shunting the works had actually decreased by about 10 minutes per day to an average of 2 hours, whilst the number of wagons dealt with remained the same, at 32 per day. Not surprisingly, it was decided that there was no case for asking Thomas & Co. to pay increased charges!"

 

I guess that the above type of arangement would have been in place at many smaller private sidings/industries where it was not a large enough concern to have its own shunter ...or even horse ....! I know that a lot of movements around sidings were also done by pinch bar and also capstans ...but for a layout this is always hard to convey with any realism ..

 

Regards Trevor .... :sungum:

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In the case of Richard Thomas & Co. (later Richard Thomas & Baldwin) Lydney Tinplate Works, like many other similar establishments production ceased for at least the duration of WWII - in some cases production necer resumed; the mills being used for government stores and the like.

.

At Lydney, the Admiralty took over in August, 1941 and the works were handed back to RTB in 1946 April, but closed in 1957,

.

During the 1940s three locos employed at Lydney were 'Registered by the GWR" and all with the same registration number, which implies (to me, from the dates below) that only one loco was in use at any given time, and the plate/registration swapped over.

.

"R.N.Armament Depot, Lydney for working tinplate works sidings and 1st handpoints in Lydney Loco Yard, with caution"

.

The locos involved were:-

4wDM RH 221639/43 - Reg'd 236/1943 a 48DS having arrived new and sold to Austin Motor Co. .

'Peter Pan' HC 831/09 - Reg'd 236/1947 having arrived from Morris Motors, Coventry in 1946 and scrapped c1953

'Lydney' AB 1180/11 - Reg'd 236/1943 having arrived from the Burry 'Old' Works c1953 where it had carried the name 'Glantawe' and scrapped 1958.

.

This can be quite an absorbing subject

.

Brian R

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Trevor,

.

This is probably the best book on the subject.

.

Published by the Industrial Railway Society in 1998

.

ISBN:- 1 901 556 06 9

.

Paperback, and only a few quid - try their website.

.

Your 'contact' who claimed the GWR would never allow industrial locomotives to operate on their system is talking through his proverbial @ ...... there are in excess of 270 locomotives listed in this booklet as registered to operate on the GWR system, albeit the registration of each loco stipulates the section(s) of GWR track they could operate on.

e.g.

"Cardiff - Dowlais Works and Foreshore" (this was usually for steelworks locos to tip slag)

or

"Over GWR running line near Jersey Marine".

 

Brian R

Full list also in RCTS Part 13!

 

Keith

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As regards mainline locomotives operating on industrial sidings, obviously no problem (subject to curves, loading gauge etc) however many industrial lines were lightly laid and / or in poor condition and the railway company itself would not allow its own engines to enter some of them, signs being posted at the entrance, this was not because they could not physically work the line but to prevent them being damaged by poor trackwork etc.

 

Industrial locomotives obviously could work on mainline tracks subject to approvals (as previous posts), they would also travel by mainline during moves between working sites, workshops for overhauls etc. This could be with a mainline crew in steam or towed rods off in a goods train.

 

Pete

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And, as quirk of such things, how about one industrial concern giving another running rights over their trackage. The Manchester Ship Canal Company gave the Lancashire Steel Corporation running rights over a few miles of their 'mainline' so that the L.S.C. could run slag trains from their Irlam works to their slag tip at Rixton.

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Hi,

 

Not to mention the transport of private locomotives going for overhaul or changing owners. Once again I suppose they would have to be inspected and I doubt if they always worked under their own steam. I have seen pictures of NCB locos with the rods removed being towed on the main line and when the Wemyss Private Railway closed at least one of the locos a Barclay 0-6-0T ran under its own steam from Wemyss to the SRPS museum.

In pre grouping days I am sure that brand new locos were delivered over other Companies lines.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

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Hi,

 

Not to mention the transport of private locomotives going for overhaul or changing owners. Once again I suppose they would have to be inspected and I doubt if they always worked under their own steam. I have seen pictures of NCB locos with the rods removed being towed on the main line and when the Wemyss Private Railway closed at least one of the locos a Barclay 0-6-0T ran under its own steam from Wemyss to the SRPS museum.

In pre grouping days I am sure that brand new locos were delivered over other Companies lines.

best wishes,

Ian

They were subject to quite rigorous inspection before transit (they went as 'goods traffic') whether they went in a train (the most common method I would think except over short distances) or under their own steam.

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On the stub of the Witham - Maldon branch line there was a steel reinforcement factory. A class 31 would bring the trains as far as the BR boundary, and this tiny Planet loco would shunt them to the unloading gantry. I understand it was not very reliable and when it broke sufficient money was found to bribe the driver of the 31 to shunt the train under the gantry...

 

26070.jpg

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The Ford Motor Works at Dagenham straddled the LT&S line and their locomotives frequently crossed from side to side. I wonder if the 3 BTH diesel locomotives arrived under their own power in 1932?

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Other examples of private locos on BR - or the other way around - include hiring BR locos out to other companies. At one extreme, BR inherited a 99 year contract to supply locos to a steelworks in North Derbyshire.

 

Other locos could be given to BR and predecessors by manufacturers for trials in the hope that they might be interested in buying.

 

Slightly off-topic, but some locos and railcars manufactured for foreign nations were run over BR tracks to test the design - even narrow gauge ones fitted with standard gauge bogies. There are a number of photos of this kind of thing.

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Other examples of private locos on BR - or the other way around - include hiring BR locos out to other companies.

 

During the 70s and 80s there were always several Cl.08s from Ebbw Jct / Canton/ Margam & Landore hired out to various NCB installations and also Duport Steel, Llanelli.

.

The GWR and other mainline companies were never averse to hiring out locos that may otherwise be standing idle, and thereby earning a few extra bob.

.

Brian R

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