Murphy Models Coaches - Mixing Cravens & Mark 2 Stock

[dcroz]

Hi everyone,

 

Were Cravens & Mk2 coaches (ie. the 2 types that Murphy Models have produced) mixed together in service? - I am trying to put a rake together, but the only brake vehicle done so far is the Mk2 EGV - would these have run with Cravens coaches in real life?

 

Thanks and best wishes,

 

David

[David Jackson]

Hi everyone,

 

Were Cravens & Mk2 coaches (ie. the 2 types that Murphy Models have produced) mixed together in service? - I am trying to put a rake together, but the only brake vehicle done so far is the Mk2 EGV - would these have run with Cravens coaches in real life?

 

Thanks and best wishes,

 

David

The Mk 2 EGV would not have run with Cravens coaches as they only generated the electric supply for lighting and air conditioning for Mk 2 coaches. Cravens coaches, on the other hand, were steam heated, and so required a steam generator van. These were of two types, Dutch Vans, and ex BR Mk 1 coaches converted. Both types are available in kit form from Silver Fox models. http://www.silverfoxmodels.co.uk/irish_railways_iarnrod_eireann/irish_railways_iarnrod_eireann_main.htm

[David Jackson]

The Mk 2 EGV would not have run with Cravens coaches as they only generated the electric supply for lighting and air conditioning for Mk 2 coaches. Cravens coaches, on the other hand, were steam heated, and so required a steam generator van. These were of two types, Dutch Vans, and ex BR Mk 1 coaches converted. Both types are available in kit form from Silver Fox models. http://www.silverfox...ireann_main.htm

Have recently discovered that Mousa Models produce etched brass sides for an ex BR Mk 1 steam generator van, and for the MK 2 and Mk 3 EGVs. Sides for two Irish variations of Mk 2 vehicles are also produced. http://www.mousa.biz...cie_sides4.html

[islandbridgejct]

That's correct. Other differences were that the Cravens were vacuum braked while the Mk 2ds were air braked, and the Cravens had screw couplings while the 2ds had buckeye couplings with a drop down hook for connecting to the screw couplers on the locos. (The hook dropped down out of the way when the buckeye was in use.) Mk 2ds and Mk 3s ran in fixed rakes, usually with an EGV, 1st or composite (if applicable), restaurant / buffet (often closed and simply in use as seating), and 4 or 5 standards (is that BTO or BSO in BR terms?). In the 1990s, Irish Rail acquired some 2nd hand Mk 2bs with centre doors and ran them with the Dutch vans.

 

Cravens were used with other older stock, such as Park Royals and pretty much anything else. After the Buttevant accident in 1980 / 81, wooden framed carriages were banned from the Cork line, so it became an all Craven / Mk 2d location, as did the branches off it. Until then, you'd often have 1 Craven, 1 corridor, 2 Park Royal and a heating van on Dublin suburban trains. After introduction of the DART (1984), coaches tended to be marshalled in homogenous rakes - all Craven, all Park Royal in particular, as the older types were withdrawn.

 

Belfast services were mostly 001s hauling Cravens until about 1984 or so when an 071 and Mk 2d rake were generally rostered.

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

Alan

[k9-70]

The BREL built Mk2 coaches for CIE all had Vaccum brakes fitted, and AFAIK, remained so until withdrawn. Later in life, one Mk2 coach #5408 the Presidential coach, was fitted with dual brakes.

 

The type of coupling used on these coaches is known as a drop-head buck-eye. Only the drop-head buck-eye section of the coupling would have been in the lowered position when coupling up to locomotives, as the locomotives only had the hook coupling fitted.

 

The BREL built Mk3 coaches had air brakes fitted from new and also drop-head buck-eye couplings.

[Nile]

What about the early (non-air-conditioned) mk,2 coaches produced by Bachmann for Murphy Models?Did they ever run with the Cravens?

[islandbridgejct]

Hmm, you could well be right on that k9-70. It may have been the NIR Mk 2bs that were air-braked.

 

The early non-ac coaches produced by Bachmann are the ones I was talking about at the end of my first paragraph. These ran with modified Dutch vans. The modified vans had an extra piece added to the ends above the buffers, extending to about waist height. These ran, as far as I know, in fixed rakes, and were not mixed with other stock.

 

Alan

[David Jackson]

What about the early (non-air-conditioned) mk,2 coaches produced by Bachmann for Murphy Models?Did they ever run with the Cravens?

The early type Mk 2s, as produced by Bachmann for Murphy Models, would not have run with the Cravens, as they were fitted with air brakes and electric heating. The Cravens, on the other hand, were vacuum braked with steam heating. The heating system on the 15 ex BR Mk 2s, which were of four different types, 1 Mk 2, 5 Mk 2A, 3 Mk 2B, 6 Mk 2C, appear to have retained the original BR pressure ventilated heating system, which would have required new Electric Generating Vans, and three original Dutch Vans were converted to EGVs for that purpose.

[jhb171achill]

In the mid 70s / early 80s, Cravens were for a while kept off the Belfast line as they were "good" coaches, mixes of older Park Royals and Laminates being used instead. This was in case the "Enterprise" was attacked or blown up. I remember cooked breakfasts in a Downpatrick-style 24XX series dining car, must have been about 1978!

[108]

The CIE Mark 2d coaches were vacuum braked apart from 5408 as noted above. The Cravens were also vacuum braked, but the Mark 2d sets ran on their own. The mark 2a/b/c type had air brakes and ran with specially modified Dutch vans only. The only time that Cravens could be seen tagged onto Mark 2d sets was when they were being moved back to Inchicore for maintenance/overhaul. These moves would have the Cravens locked out of use. CIE Mark 2d coaches could not work with the earlier Mark 2 types as the brakes were incompatible.

[Johnfromoz]

Hi all,

 

Have resurrected this thread for the benefit of the original poster's question. In conducting research looking for Intercity liveried 201s on cravens stock (not that common in itself), I saw that Eiretrain's excellent photo collection for Limerick includes a nice shot of a mixed cravens/Mk 2 set in the station, headed by a green and silver 201.

 

The Mark 2s at least appear to be in public use judging by the odd open door on  the platform. Both types of coaches have their appropriate generator vans at each end of the train.

 

All in all, this seems to an unusual photo capturing a rare combination of loco, livery and stock.

 

John

[Patrick]

Hi all,

 

Have resurrected this thread for the benefit of the original poster's question. In conducting research looking for Intercity liveried 201s on cravens stock (not that common in itself), I saw that Eiretrain's excellent photo collection for Limerick includes a nice shot of a mixed cravens/Mk 2 set in the station, headed by a green and silver 201.

 

The Mark 2s at least appear to be in public use judging by the odd open door on  the platform. Both types of coaches have their appropriate generator vans at each end of the train.

 

All in all, this seems to an unusual photo capturing a rare combination of loco, livery and stock.

 

John

These formations also appeared on the Sligo line from time to time. To save having to run an extra ECS movement with a short Cravens set, they'd tack them onto the back of a service comprised of Mk2s.

[jhb171achill]

One lot would open for passengers, the other was essentially ECS.