Metal blackning, Birchwood Casey or Carr's

[N15class]

Can you use Pyrex on the top of a gas hob, if has liquid in it?

 

OzzyO.

The heat has to be very low, I have broken one on the hob. Because they are toughened they do not like localised heat. Better use sausepan with water and pyrex in that, Just like melting chocolate.

[Kenton]

Just like melting chocolate.

 

Mmmmm C H O C O L A T E !!

 

just my sort of chemistry

[DLT]

Can you use Pyrex on the top of a gas hob, if has liquid in it?

 

OzzyO.

Definitely not. We had a serious case of "Exploding Custard" on our Field Trip some years ago, when the students on cooking duty tried to make custard in a Pyrex dish.

Result - Custard everywhere, not recomended.

Dave.

[ozzyo]

Thanks for the replies chaps,

 

all I'm waiting for now is the cost of the granulated tin, I've been looking at enamel cookware on EBay, about the only ones that may be large enough for a engine are the lidded rosters.

 

You can guess what I'm thinking of, but only if it will be cost efficient, I would think that this will be down to the cost of the tin.

 

The totally mad

 

OzzyO.

[ozzyo]

Hello all,

 

while I was on EBay, I put in Birchwood Casey in the search engine, and after a bit of side ways looking found a blackening solution that I had not seen before. Birchwood Casey Perma Blue liquid gun blue, I'm just waiting for them to get back to me about postage on more than one item.

 

OzzyO.

 

PS. I've taken my white coat off for the night.

[Horsetan]

....I've been looking at enamel cookware on EBay, about the only ones that may be large enough for a engine are the lidded rosters.

....

....PS. I've taken my white coat off for the night.

 

Good night, Heston!

[burgundy]

At ExpoEM the other day, I invested in a bottle of Birchwood Casey Super Blue to try to reduce the shine on loco wheels.

Having read through all the safety warnings on the side, the directions would probably be perfectly adequate if I merely wanted to reblue an AK47 (please note, I do not have an AK 47!). However, for the rather more mundane blueing of loco tyres, the directions are a bit sparse.

Can anyone advise please

- do you need to polish off any patina that remains, after the liquid has dried on the metal?

- does the blueing inhibit electrical conductivity in any way?

- do you need to give more than one coat to get a reasonable finish?

- does paint key to it OK?

- is there any sensible way to apply it to an existing model (where you might touch existing paintwork on the wheel and where you apparently need to wash off the treatment before polishing it)?

If nobody has any answers, Plan B will involve a bit of experimentation on a couple of old wheels!

 

Many thanks

Eric

[ozzyo]

 

- do you need to polish off any patina that remains, after the liquid has dried on the metal?

- does the blueing inhibit electrical conductivity in any way?

- do you need to give more than one coat to get a reasonable finish?

- does paint key to it OK?

- is there any sensible way to apply it to an existing model (where you might touch existing paintwork on the wheel and where you apparently need to wash off the treatment before polishing it)?

 

Many thanks

Eric

 

Hello Eric,

 

in no particular order. It won't affect existing paintwork. Clean the wheels with meths it's the same as denuterd alcohol. apply with a cotton bud.Wipe off the excess with a cotton bud. Polish it with a cotton bud.

 

Paint will stick to it OK.

 

It's up to you to tell if it needs more than one coat. If it's not black enough put some more on.

 

It wont stop electricity..

 

HTH

 

OzzyO.

[N15class]

No the blue does not insulate but is does help the paint to stick. Clean the rims with very fine wet and dry, 400 +. I then clean with celulose thinners, with out touching it with your fingers. Then blue using a cotton bud. It should be alright with one go. Rinse under hot water when colour is right for you. When dry polish up with a brass suede brush. I do all the tread flange, back and front.

[burgundy]

Thanks to OzzyO and Peter for the advice.

I gave it a go with some old Romford wheels that have been in the box marked "stuff that will come in useful sometime" (most people would probably call it scrap) and the photos below show the results. The choice was between brilliant sunshine and shade so I am not sure which will come out more clearly. The driving wheels are both insulated; the bogie wheel has no insulation. The centre driving wheel and the bogie wheel were given a coat on the flange and tread; the driving wheel on the left is there for contrast. The paint on the wheels was chipped before the exercise started!

Brilliant sunshine version

 

Shaded version

I shall certainly be treating the wheels that I bought at ExpoEM for the next loco project.

Best wishes

Eric

[ozzyo]

Hello Eric,

 

I don't think that's a far test as the super blue is for steel,and you are using it on masckl ( a zinc based metal), and nickel silver.

 

How did you clean the wheels, and what with?

 

This stuff you just have to get the hang of it. One thing that I will say is that the metal has to be clean. Both mechanical and chemically,

 

Try doing the back of the wheels, that may give you a better idea of what it will do.

 

OzzyO.

[burgundy]

OzzyO

Thanks for your comment

The exercise was intended less as a test of the effectiveness of gun blue and more as an experiment in how to use it - hence the use of some wheels out of the scrap box. Even with the relatively modest effect on the nickel silver tyres (and the lower photo, which was taken in the shade, gives a rather more realistic representation of the contrast), it gives a significantly duller finish, which seems much preferable for a model. Cleaning was with meths and a cotton bud swab. As you assured me, it has had no effect on the paintwork that was already on the wheel spokes and rims.

The next step is to take the sets of wheels that I bought from Alan Gibson last weekend and try it on them (I think AG wheel tyres are steel, on which it should be more effective).

Thanks again for your help

Best wishes

Eric

[ozzyo]

Hello Eric,

 

some photos of Super Blue in use on steel.

 

Blackening an axle.

 

Front and rear of some drivers half done, I don't do the wheel tread as I like to keep them looking like steel.

 

All the drivers done, I didn't do the brass centre before I took the photos, but did them a bit later, for cleaning them up. I use a rotary wire brush in the Dremel to do a first clean then clean with Meths and apply Brass Black. I didn't blacken the balance weights.

 

One of the wheels after painting, this was before I had found black etch primer.

 

The drivers after cleaning the wheel treads.

 

The pony wheels after cleaning the wheels treads.

 

OzzyO.

 

Edit for; PS. Forgot to mention Birchwood Casey for nickel silver, use Aluminum Black, it also works well on brass.

Edited May 27, 2012 by ozzyo

[burgundy]

OzzyO

Thank you for your perseverence with this one!

I opened the packets of Alan Gibson wheels this morning and had a go. The result is shown below.

As will be evident from the wheel layout, I am planning to build a large, modern, express loco (by the standards of the 1860s). Although the effect of the gun blue is a little bit variable, I think it is perfectly adequate for my needs. I presume that the fluid works by chemical reaction with the steel surface, as intially there seems to be very little effect, but it then intensifies quite rapidly. However, it is not always obvious how much is going to burnish off and how much will stay an intense black.

I have not bothered with the axle ends. For one, the loco has outside frames, so they should be invisible. For another, I had some trouble reconciling the health and safety warnings on the gun blue bottle with the instructions in the Alan Gibson catalogue to "lick the ends of the axle" to secure the wheels in place. The two semed mutually exclusive!

Your note, mentioning that you leave the tread and flange unblued, prompted me to ask myself the question "why on earth am I doing this"? After some reflection, I came up with two reasons. For the rim of the wheel (i.e. the bit between the tread and the flange) it should provide a better basis for paint - where the last loco that I built has suffered from paint chipping off the wheel rims rather easily. For the flange and tread, notwithstanding your preference for a steel finish, I think I want something a bit more muted. I had a look at some photo albums of the real thing and it seems to me that although shiny wheels are occasionally visible, for the most part, it is not a feature that stands out in a photo. I model in EM and a high shine metal tyre (which is proportionately rather larger than the real thing) seems terribly obvious. Dulling it down just seems like a good idea!

Again, many thanks for your help

Best wishes

Eric

[ozzyo]

Hello Eric all,

 

blackening the wheel treads should not be any problem, it may wear off where the wheels run on the rails, but it should help disguise the over deep flanges on the wheels. I'm not to sure how it will stand up to wheel cleaning though!

 

Here are the backs of the Super Blue and the Perma Blue.

 

I have used the super blue a lot, but have not yet used the perma blue, I've got a G.W.R. County (10xx class), just starting to go into the works that I will try it on.

 

If you don't want to paint the wheels after using the metal blackening fluid, a wipe over with WD40 on a cotton bud helps stop it going to the sort of brown rusty colour, I do this on the back of the wheels.

 

OzzyO.

[N15class]

It does wear of the tread, but slowly, it takes a very long time to get back to the bright shine.

[DLT]

Hi,

Does anyone know of a product that will blacken stainless-steel?  Markits are going over to stainless for their driving wheels, and the "normal" Carrs/Birchwood Casey stuff won't touch it.

Cheers, Dave

[DGO]

There is a reason it's called stainless, commercially they tend to use a black lacquer (at the cheap end), electroplating or hot bath chemical blackening  which uses a bunch of different chemicals to effectively convert the surface into magnetite which can be oxidized to a black finish, much of the latte process involves temperatures around 140C caustic materials and finishing with boiling oil, you have to put the hot oil on or you will quickly find a lovely red/brown iron oxide finish !

 

[DLT]

3 hours ago, DGO said:

There is a reason it's called stainless, commercially they tend to use a black lacquer (at the cheap end), electroplating or hot bath chemical blackening  which uses a bunch of different chemicals to effectively convert the surface into magnetite which can be oxidized to a black finish, much of the latte process involves temperatures around 140C caustic materials and finishing with boiling oil, you have to put the hot oil on or you will quickly find a lovely red/brown iron oxide finish !

 

 

Thanks for that, sounds a bit drastic/over the top for a few wheel treads!

There is news (of a sort) on this thread:  https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/110864-chemical-blackening-of-steel/

[Re6/6]

I'm looking for a suitable 'blackener' to use on nickel-silver point checkrails and wing rails. Looking at the beginning of the thread 'brass blackener' looks like it would be the best 

 

Any advice or opinions please. Thanks.

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by Re6/6

[ianLMS]

I use Brass blackener and 2 of their other ones, Super Blue and Aluminium Black for weathering motion gear etc. The Brass one should work with nickel silver as well, but will double check over the weekend and test it for you. It doesnt blacken solder though.

[5050]

I use some from Hobby Holidays which seems to work on most materials.  Fine on Brass, Steel and NS and very good on white metal and solder.

[ianLMS]

4 hours ago, 5050 said:

I use some from Hobby Holidays which seems to work on most materials.  Fine on Brass, Steel and NS and very good on white metal and solder.

Is this the stuff you use?

http://www.hobbyholidays.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=BLACKING

 

 

[97xx]

I've just done the nickel-silver chassis of my Q1 with Birchwood Casey aluminium black.  Plus the rods and edges of the tyres.

 

What attracted to me was that as a first ever build of a etch chassis, plus a compensated one, I knew that (a) I'd be handling it more than normal as being inexperienced I'd need to fiddle more with it which might damage a paint finish and (b) I didn't want to hassle of masking up hornguides and so on.

 

The sandboxes which were white metal have been painted, as have the plastic Slater's brake shoes.

 

I touched in the odd bit of solder and also where I had superglued the steam pipes to the front sandboxes to the frames it had created a curious 'no-go' halo around them which refused to black fully, even when cleaned with fibre-glass brush.

 

All in all, I'm fairly happy with it.

Edited January 22, 2021 by 97xx
Added bit about superglue

[5050]

1 hour ago, ianLMS said:

Is this the stuff you use?

http://www.hobbyholidays.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=BLACKING

 

 

Yup, I reckon that's it.