'CHARD Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 This dialogue has taken me straight back to the Waverley bays watching the (by then) clapped-out 27s coming and going in a microcosm of Scottish that was uniquely compelling to these eyes. A few years later, back in Edinburgh on a field trip and sneaking off from the main party to enjoy Haymarket station for half an hour, the big Type 4s seemed incongruous by comparison, and before I'd even had chance to get used to this idea I was working for the railway watching them being displaced by 158s. At which point all the above nuances had been swept away at a stroke. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IC126 Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 I'd reckon Andrew the first port of call would be to try and track down that article! Agreed, Bob - unfortunately the article I thought contained the statement (September 1972 Railway World "Edinburgh-Glasgow Intercity push-and-pull" by Brian Perren) mentions the practice, but not the reasons why. It was definitely something I saw in print so I'm currently trying to track it down. Maybe it was the same source that referred to the sets as a "Scottish Region do-it-yourself HST" which I found quite amusing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 That's a pity Andrew. You know the DIY HST isn't that far fetched - 2 x 1250hp, 6 air braked coaches with 2-stage braking (with Giirling Wheelslide Prevention), hydraulic handbrake on the BSO - 27?-way jumpers, and control air pipe fitted to boot... What a beast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IC126 Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 They were fantastic trains. Putting the two tunnels on a rising gradient from Queen Street and Falkirk was a touch of genius on the part of the line's builders (for me at any rate). I had family in Linlithgow that I liked to visit by taking the push-pull from Glasgow to Haymarket with DMU back (I had a PT card then on account of my father). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted June 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 9, 2012 just imagining how hellfire the push-pulls would have been if the planned cl.37s had been available! that said have seen pics with a 25 or 37 deputising for an errant 27 - presumably any blue-star fitted loco could be used at short notice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Was there any plan for Type 3 power Keefer? - The ScR had been looking even then for a single type 4 - Class 47 or Class 50! to get near the 2,500 hp they were looking for. Any loco could in theory be swapped over - providing they were air braked and either steam or electric heated - certainly during the early years there were the odd substitutions till they got over some of problems and had all of the loco's allocated to the service. I might be mistaken, but if they were not Push-Pull 27s they may have had to have the rear loco manned - something about the fire system springs to mind but I could be wrong. I was still at school - looking right onto the main line at the time the service was trialled then launched, and I must blame them for my poor exam results - not that poor that I didn't get to work on the rolling stock as an apprentice a couple of years later! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Like you Bob, I recall that 47s or 50s were wanted even at the start, but back in 1970 they had no chance. D6700 was utilised in test runs with the RTC's 'push/pull' Mk1 BSK, (E34500 IIRC), but I'm not sure that 37s were seriously considered for the actual service. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianwales Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Hi all Just as an aside, I noticed in Smiths today the current issue of Traction has an article on the Class 27 Push-Pulls. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Hardly an aside Ian, it's the reason for the thread. From the OP: Reading in the latest Traction magazine about these interesting workings... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45125 Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Like you Bob, I recall that 47s or 50s were wanted even at the start, but back in 1970 they had no chance. D6700 was utilised in test runs with the RTC's 'push/pull' Mk1 BSK, (E34500 IIRC), but I'm not sure that 37s were seriously considered for the actual service. Ian, I have seen somewhere a list of 64B 25s and 37s that could be used on the E-G services, one would presume they had some mods done to allow them to used on these services. Al Taylor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IC126 Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 I might be mistaken, but if they were not Push-Pull 27s they may have had to have the rear loco manned - something about the fire system springs to mind but I could be wrong. Completely correct, Bob. As part of the modifications the 27s were fitted with automatic fire extinguishing set to operate when the engine room temperature reached 120 deg C. Driver/guard communication was also fitted Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Ian, I have seen somewhere a list of 64B 25s and 37s that could be used on the E-G services, one would presume they had some mods done to allow them to used on these services. Al Taylor I recall seeing that too, Al. And from memory, one of the 25s was a higher numbered example of the early body style which just so happened to gain full yellow ends and austerity green, D7591 as seen here in 1970: http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=27886 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 It's probably that list from Nick Lawford's article - a great primer for the service! It was those loco's used during late 71 early 72 to stand in for the 27s that were falling down all over the place particularly with t/m failures. The loco's were re-geared from the original 27s (t/m gearboxes fettled by Aston Martin - okay Davy Broon).... Used to love sitting on Bishopbriggs Station during that time waiting to see what was going to be stuck onto them next. Rumours of a 50 caused mass panic amongst the local spotters but for all the hours sat, it wasn't seen.... Here's a nice pic of 7590 on the rear at Eastfield Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted June 10, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 10, 2012 Was there any plan for Type 3 power Keefer? - The ScR had been looking even then for a single type 4 - Class 47 or Class 50! to get near the 2,500 hp they were looking for. Any loco could in theory be swapped over - providing they were air braked and either steam or electric heated - certainly during the early years there were the odd substitutions till they got over some of problems and had all of the loco's allocated to the service. I might be mistaken, but if they were not Push-Pull 27s they may have had to have the rear loco manned - something about the fire system springs to mind but I could be wrong. I was still at school - looking right onto the main line at the time the service was trialled then launched, and I must blame them for my poor exam results - not that poor that I didn't get to work on the rolling stock as an apprentice a couple of years later! Me too! I was at school at Bishopbriggs when they were being trialled. Definitely remember seeing a 37 at one end & a 27 at the other. I didn't get to work on them though as I came out to Australia instead in 1972 aged 15. Opposite the school sports ground one of the old DMU's failed & it took at least an hour to get moving again. For the next hour or so, the signal outside the school building had a long procession of trains stop at it & wait for the proceeding train to clear the next section. Probably about 1970. Kevin Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 The pics I recall seeing of the substitute 25s or 37s always seem to be of a blue loco, and very clean ones at that. That's not to say it was always so of course, but it does suggest that efforts were made to keep things tidy. Bob, did you ever find out any more about the blue/grey livery proposals for the locos? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Don't remember that one Ian - I was looking for the instruction to repaint MU's in blue/grey but not loco's - though that wouldn't surprise me (something in my head does stir when you mention that)! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 It was something mentioned in the 'Railway Mag' before the service actually started Bob, but that's the only mention I've ever seen of it. Personally I was happy enough with them in blue, but I think they should have had painted names from Scotts and Glens Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 The fitters at Haymarket and Eastfield had a few names for them as well....... Here's a "not a lot of people know that" derailment..... 5400 came off the road at Cadder in 1973 after having shed part of a tyre and it's gibson ring between Haymarket and the Waverley! - caused the start of the painting of the white witness marks between the tyre and wheel and (in the case of the 27s) frequent checks for movement..... Over 40 miles with a loose tyre - ouch! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45125 Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I recall seeing that too, Al. And from memory, one of the 25s was a higher numbered example of the early body style which just so happened to gain full yellow ends and austerity green, D7591 as seen here in 1970: http://www.railbrit....te.php?id=27886 The list I have came from two sources Railway Mag and Railway Observer, and are as follows,6844,6845,6846, 6903,6906,6919,6936,6937,7576,7578,7579,7580,7581,7582 and 7583. 6903 I think was still green at this time along with a couple 25 been in economy green, 7578 having been one. There some photos in Railway Mags of the time of various combinations on the E-G, and some excellent photos by Derek Cross of E-G services with pairs of tidy blue 25s in one of his later publications. Regards Al Taylor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IC126 Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Interesting accident report - I don't recall having heard the Class 27A designation of the PP fitted 27s before. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45125 Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 The list I have came from two sources Railway Mag and Railway Observer, and are as follows,6844,6845,6846, 6903,6906,6919,6936,6937,7576,7578,7579,7580,7581,7582 and 7583. 6903 I think was still green at this time along with a couple 25 been in economy green, 7578 having been one. There some photos in Railway Mags of the time of various combinations on the E-G, and some excellent photos by Derek Cross of E-G services with pairs of tidy blue 25s in one of his later publications. Regards Al Taylor Missed 7590 and 7591 off the list. Al Taylor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted June 10, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 10, 2012 Was there any plan for Type 3 power Keefer? my mistake bob, must've remembered that they were used for trials and got mixed up with that. some in-service testing tales at: http://www.traintest...m/push-pull.htm (although the coaches were mk2/2a not 2a/2b) i've seen a pic of what is given as 47 258(D1938), with blue-star jumpers and control-air pipes - states that it was converted for evaluation in the 60s (motive power recognition 1 - Locos, CJ marsden/ian allan, 1981) a pic on brian daniels' flickr of FK Sc13415 showing the jumpers and pipes - don't think i've ever seen this before: http://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/5837144002/in/set-72157626969809416 also trying to remember another photosite, which had some cracking pics of the push-pulls while still fairly new - still shiny blue with orange conduits and, i'm sure, some pics of 25/37 on the back. used to be a fotopic, but whether it's on flickr or zenfolio/smugmug, i wish i knew! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 That picture of the coach of mine also shows the disc braked B4's that these sets used. They are stil about under the Network Rail test train MkII's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted June 11, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 11, 2012 were these bogies ever used for any other coaches? if not, it's a good recognition point for former E-G vehicles, as i think they tended to stay on the original vehicles. didn't the mk2f DBSOs also have a similar layout of piping etc? re: the 'lost' website i was wittering on about, i wonder if it might been one linked to in p.5 of brian's kitbuild thread (currently on p.53!) it was 'diesel-image-gallery' on fotopic, did a search and came up with: http://dieselimagegallery.com/ not up-and-running yet but if it contains the photos i think it does, it should be wonderful Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Prior to the E&G use, some of the Mk2s that went on to be included in the fleet took part in high-speed trials on the Eastern Region out of London. The remainder of the MK2 vehicles for the 2+27 E&G fleet were similarly converted to disc braked B4s with Girling Wheelslde Equipment fitted - hence the blowdown valve on the outside and all the associated pipework. When the E&G service was being tranferred over to the 47/7s, MK3s & 2f DBSOs, we sent of some of the early Mk2s for overhaul and removal of the disc braked B4 bogies for fitment under the 10 original DBSOs (9701 to 9710) and of course from there they've passed eventually to Network Rail where they are today. Though like the proverbial broom, they've had 40+ years of new heads & new shafts! No other coaching stock were fitted with these disc braked bogies and they remain much as they were used on the E&Gs all those years ago. Recognisable by the Girling WSP housing covers, blowdown valve and associate pipework/conduit on the right hand bogie - whichever side you view the vehicle from! Note the subsequent DBSO conversions 9711-9714 were not fitted with disc braked / WSP equipped bogies but retained the original B4s with tread brakes as built. Edit; Since it's transfer to Network Rail, 9714 seems to have acquired bogies from one of the earlier conversions as it's now equipped with disc braked B4's Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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