Wrong side signals possible if needed?

[Guest Moria]

Greetings all.. on the layout I have 2 tracks parallel, with spacing of normal double track (6' way) and I'm using N gauge Peco 55, but each track is a bidirectional singal track line... think to the west of Paignton.. one track is the preserved line, one is the BR line, although origionally it was normal double track.

 

I need to signal both lines seperately.

 

Since there won't be room to put a signal in the 6' way. is it permissable to site the signal wrong side of the line. or would it be more appropriate to put the post on the wrong side and gantry out a signal to above the line, or other solutions? The signals for the preserved line will be semaphore, and the BR ones will be colour light.

 

Or is this a case of .. unusual arrangement makes for unusual solutions?

 

Thanks in advance for any help on this.

 

Regards to all

 

Graham

[Joseph_Pestell]

It was quite common on all railways to put semaphore signals on the "wrong" side where sighting would be improved but particularly on the Great Western / BR(W) where so many of the locos were RHD.

 

But it has never been common practice to do this with colourlights. So I think that your semaphore-signalled preservation line is fine with ordinary signal posts placed on whichever side of the line they fit. Bear in mind that preservation lines are limited to 25mph (Light Rly Order) so sighting is not so much of an issue. The colourlights may need to be on a gantry in one direction to ensure that they are properly visible.

 

In general though, it sounds as though you may be looking to put too many signals on your layout anyway. Signal spacing on single tracks is such that you won't need them in many positions on the layout. Perhaps you should post a trackplan of the layout for folks to look at???

[Edwin_m]

Colour lights were/are occasionally put to the right where this would give the best sighting and there was no risk of confusion. I'm also slightly surprised to see that right-hand signals have made something of a comeback in recent years. For example the Water Orton re-signalling, commissioned just a few weeks ago, has several right-hand signals on the northernmost track which is bi-directionally signalled so trains can run from Sutton Park to Washwood Heath without crossing the other tracks twice. This is despite many of the other signals being on gantries.

[beast66606]

Agree with everything Edwin says but in BR days, wrong side colour lights were not common, a very good reason would be needed, it's more likely a bracket or gantry would be used to bring the head to the right (left!) position.

[The Stationmaster]

And of course at the real Paignton the private line not only uses colour light signals but has some on the wrong side in order to avoid using bracket structures.

[Edwin_m]

I've always thought the use of right-hand colour lights on a right hand track (as with my Water Orton example) is asking for trouble because a driver on either track would see one one set of colour lights on each side with obvious potential for the driver becoming confused about which line he is on. Even more so for SIMBIDS when there will be lots of spurious AWS actuations. If the signals were to the left of the right hand track then a driver on that track would see two sets of lights to one side, and the risk of confusion would be much less. The Leicester scheme in the 80s, which skimped in so many other important ways, managed to provide impressive and no doubt costly gantries so its wrong-direction signals were on the left.

[The Stationmaster]

I've always thought the use of right-hand colour lights on a right hand track (as with my Water Orton example) is asking for trouble because a driver on either track would see one one set of colour lights on each side with obvious potential for the driver becoming confused about which line he is on. Even more so for SIMBIDS when there will be lots of spurious AWS actuations. If the signals were to the left of the right hand track then a driver on that track would see two sets of lights to one side, and the risk of confusion would be much less. The Leicester scheme in the 80s, which skimped in so many other important ways, managed to provide impressive and no doubt costly gantries so its wrong-direction signals were on the left.

 

In the original Saltley scheme there was one location at Saltley where a lot of GPLs were put on the wrong side for various reasons - and the result was regular SPADs and point run-throughs, usually by men who claimed to know the road but had so little work in that vicinity they could hardly have been as knowledgeable as they claimed.

 

If you have to put running signals on the wrong side I think the Belgian system takes a bit of beating as a principle - all the aspects flash so the 'wrong line' signals are easily worked out and SPAD risk is immediately and simply mitigated. Meanwhile we use flashing aspects for other, rather more wasteful in my view, reasons.

[Rugd1022]

I've always thought the use of right-hand colour lights on a right hand track (as with my Water Orton example) is asking for trouble because a driver on either track would see one one set of colour lights on each side with obvious potential for the driver becoming confused about which line he is on. Even more so for SIMBIDS when there will be lots of spurious AWS actuations. If the signals were to the left of the right hand track then a driver on that track would see two sets of lights to one side, and the risk of confusion would be much less. The Leicester scheme in the 80s, which skimped in so many other important ways, managed to provide impressive and no doubt costly gantries so its wrong-direction signals were on the left.

 

Historically though, the Water Orton - Washwood Heath section had right handed colour lights when the whole area was converted way back in 1969.... I signed the road over ten years ago and have never had a problem with them, old or new. The only down side to me regarding the new signals along this route is that there are more of them in certain locations than there were before, thereby shortening the sections - something we have to keep in mind to avoid having a 'roll back SPAD' when releasing the brake before taking power. It can be very tight in some places!

 

Mike - those GPLs at Saltley.... had to be very careful approaching Landor Street on the bi-directional line there!

[John M Upton]

At Barnham in West Sussex, some shunt signals have had to be placed on the 'wrong' side (apparently this was something to do with the new shunt signals being ordered, delivered and then it was discovered they were too big to fit in the six foot!!) so in the six foot is a sign with the signal number and an arrow pointing to the right. Looks all a bit odd but it works!!

[TheSignalEngineer]

The Water Orton - Washwood Heath RHS signals date from 1983, when Water Orton East Junction was remodelled and the Down Goods removed between Water Orton West and Castle Bromwich due to river scouring problems at Br. 118 undermining the abutments. I can't remember the exact instruction in force on the LMR at the time but will see if I still have any details of the job.

[Guest Moria]

Many thanks to all.

 

Stationmaster... I was hoping to revert the preversed line to semaphore since i am butchering my station which is based on Paignton by so much, but I have considered using the wrong sided colour lights as in use today and was hoping that with a max speed of 25mph that might work for semaphore as well.

 

However, the colour light would be an easier fit

 

As i am going to be on that side of the Atlantic in August and paying a visit To Paignton, I may just have to spend some serious time llooking at the existing signal equipment and locations.

 

Again,thanks all and regards to all

 

Graham

[The Stationmaster]

Various Paignton/Torbay Steam Railway

Paignton station looking towards Kingswear

 

 

Goodrington Sands station looking back towards Paignton

 

 

 

New signalling control panel (for the entire line) under construction in 2009)

 

 

 

Then existing (2009) control panel for the railway in use (situated at Britannia Crossing)

 

[Guest Moria]

Awesome pics. Many thanks Mike.

 

I'll be staying in Dartmouth so i can try for a picture at Brittania halt as well while I'm there. I still remember with fondness the old halt there and some wonderful conversations with the keeper at the crossing when he had 3 levers only i believe. 2 for signals and one locking lever for the crossing gates?

 

First and only time i ever had the opportunity to pull levers in a box on the railway.

 

Regards

 

Graham

[Rugd1022]

The Water Orton - Washwood Heath RHS signals date from 1983, when Water Orton East Junction was remodelled and the Down Goods removed between Water Orton West and Castle Bromwich due to river scouring problems at Br. 118 undermining the abutments. I can't remember the exact instruction in force on the LMR at the time but will see if I still have any details of the job.

 

Thanks for the correction TSE, up to now I thought the whole stretch of line was done at the same time, when the Midland semaphores were replaced.

[The Stationmaster]

I'll be staying in Dartmouth so i can try for a picture at Brittania halt as well while I'm there. I still remember with fondness the old halt there and some wonderful conversations with the keeper at the crossing when he had 3 levers only i believe. 2 for signals and one locking lever for the crossing gates?

Graham

This is the best I can manage for a view of the railway at Britannia Crossing - those Railway Inspectorate folk get their backs in the way all over the place! BTW all these pics were taken during an IRSE official visit to the Railway and all carried out under full safety supervision (of the highest level!!!)

 

 

[Gwiwer]

I would fit your proposed signals where you can. As others have discussed it is perfectly permissable to have them "wrong side" on the real railway (both national network and heritage lines) and the GWR set the precedent big time although linked to its right-hand drive locomotive fleet.

 

Positioning of each and every signal always used to be referred to the local signal sighting committee to ensure the drivers were as happy as the S&T chaps with what was being installed. It's one thing to be the World's best signal engineer but quite another to be driving into horizontal sunlight and unsure of whether that aspect ahead applies to you - or indeed whether you can see it clearly or even at all.

[Guest Moria]

Thanks again Mike and good advice Gwiwer.

 

One last question if I may.. the base of the new Dapol Signals is 30mm x 20mm. By my reckoning, with no mods, that places the post with a clearance of approx 6' from the rail. I have looked around a lot on the net and can't find anything that gives a dimension of the clearance of a signal post from the rail (although having said that I am sure someone will post a link immediately).

 

Is there a minimum clearance, or a recommended distance.. looking at it from a purely esthetic point of view, I am guessing at about 7' from rail.

 

Regards to all

 

Graham

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks again Mike and good advice Gwiwer.

 

One last question if I may.. the base of the new Dapol Signals is 30mm x 20mm. By my reckoning, with no mods, that places the post with a clearance of approx 6' from the rail. I have looked around a lot on the net and can't find anything that gives a dimension of the clearance of a signal post from the rail (although having said that I am sure someone will post a link immediately).

Is there a minimum clearance, or a recommended distance.. looking at it from a purely esthetic point of view, I am guessing at about 7' from rail.

Graham

In the 1950 issue of the Requirements the standard permitted distance was 4ft 5.75ins from the nearest (inside) rail edge but it was permissible to reduce this by 6ins in situations where the distance between adjacent tracks or tracks and other structures left no alternative. That distance was applicable to the nearest (to rail) part of the structure which in the case of a straight post signal would be the ladder edge (or perhaps on a short signal the arm itself).

 

Look at the pic below and you'll get an impression of just how tight things could get (although this is an ex GW line and the 6ft interval was - and remains - somewhat wider than that of lesser railways which used cart axle length gauge. IN addition the signal would have been a 'like for like' renewal of one erected c.1911 and the GWR might well have been working to slightly different standards back then).

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Note that your picture also has a narrow (8") ladder rather than the usual 11" one to make it fit in a smaller space. The weight bar is also lower than normal to get it into the place where there is more clearance.

[Guest Moria]

Many thanks Mike:) Yeah.. that ones a little close and not sure if the hole needed would fit, even if the signal would That might have to be a drill hole, plant signal then lay track to make it work.

 

OK looking at all the bits, I'm going to be running these posts about 6' from the rail which should allow fitting without major mod to the baseplates.

 

Regards

 

Graham

[Joseph_Pestell]

In the 1950 issue of the Requirements the standard permitted distance was 4ft 5.75ins from the nearest (inside) rail edge but it was permissible to reduce this by 6ins in situations where the distance between adjacent tracks or tracks and other structures left no alternative. That distance was applicable to the nearest (to rail) part of the structure which in the case of a straight post signal would be the ladder edge (or perhaps on a short signal the arm itself).

 

Look at the pic below and you'll get an impression of just how tight things could get (although this is an ex GW line and the 6ft interval was - and remains - somewhat wider than that of lesser railways which used cart axle length gauge. IN addition the signal would have been a 'like for like' renewal of one erected c.1911 and the GWR might well have been working to slightly different standards back then).

 

 

 

E PERICOLOSO SPORGERSI

[beast66606]

E PERICOLOSO SPORGERSI

 

Depends which side ..

[The Stationmaster]

I've finally got an operational scanner and have been finding my way round it - so here's a proper example of a signal on the wrong side - Twyford East's Up Main Line Home Signal in 1961

 

[Grovenor]

Here's another for you. Teignmouth Up starter I think, and it looks like the Down outer home in the distance is probably wrong side as well.

Keith

[essexexpress]

There is as they say, a prototype for everything!

 

 

Mike