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stove r


mark axlecounter
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just to let the people who was helping me with my 00 stove r what keeps falling off the rails

well i have glued the swinging carriers on both sides and i have elongated the middle carrier to go up an down .

tried the thing on my layout and 6 hours latter its still on rails not come off once .

thank you for your help and advice everyone who advised me on the stove r

a very happy axelcounter (mark )

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  • 6 months later...

No such joy here ; following the advice read about on RMWeb I also 'fixed' the outer axles by gluing up the revolving axlebox assemblies and enlarged the drop (for the axle) in the central block and it's now worse than it's ever been. It didn't always derail over points when pushed or pulled, but it does now!

In my opinion the manufacture of this six wheeler was made down to a price; they have tried to reinvent the wheel when there are good examples of model six wheelers out there that do work. Take a look at a Roco HO six wheeled (German) DB coach (ref 4214) or here in 16mm > http://www.ipengineering.co.uk/page169.html  In both scales the central axle is fixed between axleboxes and this whole assembly has linkage to the outer axle assemblies so that when a curve in the track is encountered and the outer axle swings, the linkage also swings the central assembly.

I just don't understand how they can get it so wrong with so much good info readily available.

 

D.

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  • 8 years later...

Sorry to drag up an old topic but I have had a stove r since they were first introduced. I've carried out all the recommended modifications (and, incidentally corrected some very suspect back to backs) but it still refuses to negotiate even the gentlest of curves. I've now given up and consigned it to the bin. 

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1 hour ago, Les Bird said:

Sorry to drag up an old topic but I have had a stove r since they were first introduced. I've carried out all the recommended modifications (and, incidentally corrected some very suspect back to backs) but it still refuses to negotiate even the gentlest of curves. I've now given up and consigned it to the bin. 

 

A shame - I'd have taken it off your hands and rechassised it.

 

John Isherwood.

Edited by cctransuk
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3 hours ago, Les Bird said:

Sorry to drag up an old topic but I have had a stove r since they were first introduced. I've carried out all the recommended modifications (and, incidentally corrected some very suspect back to backs) but it still refuses to negotiate even the gentlest of curves. I've now given up and consigned it to the bin. 

 

I have found in the past that Dapol wheel profiles are to blame - their 6 wheel milk tanks were forever de-railing till I replaced the outer wheetsets with Hornby ones (Left the Dapol ones in the middle.

 

Given Dapol ballsed up the overall design* and specified freight wagon diameter wheelsets I wouldn't be surprised if this is the cause of the de-railing.

 

 

*Fitting proper 14mm diameter coach wheelsets requires hacking about of the undeframe and then results in the vehicle riding too high. Very much a case of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory as the prototype is an attractive thing to reproduce in model form

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3 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

I have found in the past that Dapol wheel profiles are to blame - their 6 wheel milk tanks were forever de-railing till I replaced the outer wheetsets with Hornby ones

I've used quite a lot of Dapol wheels and found a few derailments, particularly with the milk tanks. I don't know about the profile but I found a wide variation in back-to-backs and too little play in the milk tank wheels to take 24" radius curves. With the Stove R the chassis design is never going to work as originally made. I cured mine by resetting the B2B, fixing the outer wheels and making sure there is adequate play in the middle axle. Not perfect but it will do for now.

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A few years ago (well at least 5) I bought a Dapol milk tanker which derailed at points all the time. The wheel back to backs were correct.  I was going to a big exhibition soon (Probably Alley Pally), and at that talked to a gentleman on the Dapol stand about it.  He said they'd had a bad batch of wheel sets, and if I emailed them with my details they'd post me a new set.  I did, they did, and the new wheel set fixed the problem.

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18 hours ago, Les Bird said:

It's still here if you're interested

 

I'll be happy to take it as the basis of a hack-about - what do you want for it?

 

My address can be found at https://www.cctrans.org.uk/

 

Regards,

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

Edited by cctransuk
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I got mine to run OK.  Basically I fixed the outer wheelsets so that they can't swivel any longer, and opened out the slot that the middle one runs in so that it's got more vertical play.  I don't know why they thought it was a good idea to make the outer wheels swivel in an uncontrolled way (unlike a Cleminson truck arrangement for example); the first thing anyone tells you about making a wagon is to make sure the axles are parallel to each other and at right angles to the longitudinal centre line, yet here we have a van where the axles are deliberately designed to be NOT fixed parallel to each other!  I fitted 14mm wheels, I think it looks better for it and the extra height is only 1mm - tolerable differences in suspension and / or tyre thickness on the real thing?  In fitting the bigger wheels I did have to alter the brake shoes, although you could just chop them off I suppose.

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4 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I've used quite a lot of Dapol wheels and found a few derailments, particularly with the milk tanks. I don't know about the profile but I found a wide variation in back-to-backs and too little play in the milk tank wheels to take 24" radius curves.

 

I had this issue with the milk tanks too. They made a noticeable grinding noise on curves and stumbled over pointwork - a close look at the wheel flanges revealed they were at sharp right-angles to the treads. I replaced them all with Hornby wheelsets which I happened to have to hand, having stocked up while they were very reasonably priced, and that solved the problem.

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I can't recall any RTR 6 wheeled vehicle that was a success.  I modified several old Hornby 6 wheelers (Insul Milk, Palethorpes Sausage, LMS and GWR) by basically scratchbuilding the underframes.

 

The Dapol Stove R could have been a winner, the body was pretty good IMO, (except that the middle line on the LMS version was in the wrong place).  I think the design of the underframe was rushed and riddled with compromise.  I got mine working by adding 3'6" wheels and replacing the bearing carriers with Comet W-irons:

 

P1010060.JPG.98f793ed482a85357896babdf5a99cab.JPG

 

I eventually built the Comet Stove R kit.

 

John

 

 

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14 hours ago, Ben Alder said:

Five79 (son of Chivers) is releasing the six wheel underframe from their fish van kit later this year which should provide an answer to the problem.

I have one of these fish vans built and running, and am very pleased with it.  It is fine on my minimum radius curve, a Hornby curved turnout in the fiddle yard, and the dummy centre wheels are barely noticeable on Peco medium radius turnouts, the standard on the scenic part of the layout.  The trick is to paint all the wheels the same colour, track colour in my case, so that the centre dummies do not draw attention to themselves.  
 

I like steam era NPCCS and may well acquire a Dap Stove R and fit Five79 underpinnings to it if the only difference is the handbrake levers having to be left off. 
 

I have learned by experience to replace the wheels of any Dapol rolling stock in between getting it out of the box and putting it on the track.  Don’t know why they are an issue, b2b seems ok and they run true, must be profile.  My Dapol wheels are given the opportunity of an exciting new career in the landfill industry…

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Here's the underside of my Comet Stove R:

 

P1010002a.JPG.d39c36fc71aa2dbcdf05af283113f220.JPG

 

You can see it is much more refined than the Dapol example pictured.  Note the center axle.  Wheels are mounted on brass tube and a 1mm steel rod inserted to fit in the bearings.  Rather than use dummy wheels on the Chivers fish van, this method is pretty simple to adapt.

 

John

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On 15/08/2021 at 16:36, Les Bird said:

Sorry to drag up an old topic but I have had a stove r since they were first introduced. I've carried out all the recommended modifications (and, incidentally corrected some very suspect back to backs) but it still refuses to negotiate even the gentlest of curves. I've now given up and consigned it to the bin. 

 

Thanks to the generosity of Les Bird (above), a Dapol / Hornby Magazine STOVE R arrived by post this morning; it's the first time that I've seen one 'in the flesh'. It does look a little 'tubby', and could probably be narrowed, but I can live with it for now.

 

What interested me more was the apparent diabolical running characteristics that have been widely reported. Of course, the wheels are too small, and the only realistic way to remedy this will be to fit a Five79 fish van underframe - which will happen when they become available as a separate item. For now, I wanted to see if it is possible to get it running satisfactorily with the wheels as supplied.

 

Inverting the model and laying a straight edge along the wheel treads, it was clearly apparent that the centre wheels have zero vertical movement, and that the centre wheel flanges sit on the underside of the chassis with the tread higher (when inverted) than the outer wheels; no wonder the thing won't run properly!!!

 

Having removed the centre axle and wheels, it was clearly apparent that all of the plastic 'slabs' that connect the centre axleguards to the inside axle bearing would have to be removed; this was achieved using a burr in a mini-drill. In the course of this somewhat drastic and messy job, the axleguards fall free, as they rely on the plastic 'slabs' for fixing. (Panic not - they'll glue back in place in due course)!

 

Having got rid of the two joining 'slabs', and tidied up any resulting 'furry' bits, the burr was also used to deepen the slot for the centre axle until, when dropped into the bearing with the model inverted, the wheel treads were at least 1mm. below a straight edge laid across the outer wheel treads.

 

Satisfied that the centre wheels could now revolve freely, I glued the axleguards to the solebars with cyanoacetate glue - alignment is simple as they fit snugly between other solebar fittings.

 

Once the glue had set, I refitted the centre axle / wheels. A drop of oil on the bearings, and the model was placed on the track - and it ran freely and smoothly! I could even propel it through points with no problem whatsoever.

 

So, the model in question is not beyond redemption and, if you can live with the width of the body and the small wheels, it can be turned into a good runner in less than an hour. Reducing the width and fitting correct wheels will be Episode 2, and is for another day.

 

John Isherwood.

 

 

Edited by cctransuk
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Strikes me that, if the Dap Stove runs ok with the centre axles and wheels removed as Metroland has doen, a simple bodge satisfactory for those of us prepared to compromise on appearance enough to allow a Five79 fish van on their layouts would be to remove the centre axle and wheels, use a slitting disc to cut flats in the wheels Five 79 style, and glue them in position as a dummy wheelset.  Goes against the modelling grain, but as I've said I have to look pretty hard to see that my fish van's centre wheels are not revolving or in line with the railhead on my medium radius Peco turnouts, and this van gives no problems whatsoever in running, using Hornby coach wheels as a 4-wheeler.  I think I'd be aware of and bothered by the complete abscence of the centre set.

 

Is the Dap Stove too fat?  It may be an optical illusion as this is a fairly short vehicle to full coach profile with the addition of duckets.  There is an alternative though it costs a little more, Rue d'Etropal (Recreation Models, Shapeways 3D prints) does both diagrams of Stove R.  The print is a complete bodyshell including buffers and gangways, and has the solebars, w irons, and axleboxes printed in.  Requires floor, wheels, bearings, and brake cylinder/rodding, battery boxes, not to mention brakes!  One could provide interior detail as well.

 

Current state of play for me is a Dap with Five79 underbits when they are available, dependent on availability on the Bay of e for the van, or the Recreation if this proves a problem.  I want one; a distinctive and characterful van that would be a good running mate for my LMS 50' BG, but it is important that the body profiles match.

 

There is of course another alternative, the Comet brass kit.  I have build a few Comet coaches and am happy that they are largely within my comfort zone, but a 6 wheeler... confident I can build it to look reasonably like a Stove R, but the running might be a different matter!

Edited by The Johnster
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2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

a simple bodge satisfactory for those of us prepared to compromise on appearance enough to allow a Five79 fish van on their layouts would be to remove the centre axle and wheels, use a slitting disc to cut flats in the wheels Five 79 style

About 40 years ago I built a Ks 6-wheel Siphon. It wouldn't go through my points so I glued the centre axles in position and filed off the bottom of the flanges. Didn't have a problem after that.

 

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

Is the Dap Stove too fat? 

Indeed it is. Tatlow's Historic NPCCS book shows 8'6" over body and 9' over the duckets. The model scales at about 9'1" and 10'1" respectively.

 

It is certainly evident when coupled to a Bachmann 50' BG. The body of that is more or less correct width but unfortunately the underframe is about 2mm too wide. I don't know the dimensions of the Hornby one.

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Which is probably enough to rule out the Dapol; 4mm excess over the duckets, 2mm each side, and 2mm excess over body width, especially as I now know about it(!) is a deal breaker.  The way to go for me is probably the Comet kit and my suggested fixed dummy Five79 type centre wheelset with the flats cut at the bottom.  I'll leave it for now as I have another project to complete first, but it may well be the next project!

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1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Which is probably enough to rule out the Dapol; 4mm excess over the duckets, 2mm each side, and 2mm excess over body width, especially as I now know about it(!) is a deal breaker.  The way to go for me is probably the Comet kit and my suggested fixed dummy Five79 type centre wheelset with the flats cut at the bottom.  I'll leave it for now as I have another project to complete first, but it may well be the next project!

 

If you scroll up a few posts you will see my Comet model and how I did the center axle.

 

John

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I always wanted an LMS six wheel van in 7mm and even once bought one second hand. But it was not up to scratch and ended up being sold on and replaced by a parcels van.
Before I consider another purchase (kit / 'used') I was wondering about its likely fit with my layout and its operations, where I wish to use it as an occasional brake (BGZ). My pre war branch passenger train - LMS 2P plus two or three Clayton coaches - would have the van attached to the rear.
Would this be OK or were the vans essentially for faster passenger trains - hence them often having corridor connections fitted? Could I simply remove/not build these connections as all my coaches are non-corridor? I already add a daily horsebox to one service in a similar way.
I'd prefer some precedence rather than just relying on rule one. Bob

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I have had a fascination with 6 wheeled vehicles for a long time.  As I mentioned above I did a lot of work on various Stove R models in 4mm.  I also converted the old Hornby 6 wheeled Palethorpes (LMS and GWR) and the Insulated Milk vans into something more accurate, underframewise anyway.

 

In 7mm I have built a BR 6 wheeled brake using the CRT kit:

 

P1010007a.JPG.73c7231d2741ac9737024d8c027e86cf.JPG

 

This is for my milk train.  Perhaps one day I will do the Stove R, but, for now I have the stock I need.

 

Steamline is good source for second hand:  http://www.steamline.co.uk/, but just not right now as there are no 6 wheeled brakes on offer.  I check every so often for un-built kits.  I am always suspicious of kit built models because they are probably not up to my  standard and would have to be redone, so twice the work.

 

John

 

 

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