Loco Run Round in Modern Freight yards?

[MattWallace]

Hi all,

 

I've been looking more and more at my fiddle yard and I'm wondering if I'm "doing it wrong" as I can see an issue in that the loco will be the wrong end of the service once it is in the FY.

 

"Ah ha!", I thought, "I can fix this by looking at modern intermodals because they will have an entrance at one end and buffers at the other", but apparently not.

 

I've been looking at Tilbury on Google Earth and it seems to have a point at which intermodals are pushed into the yard, however I can't work out how the get there when (as I understand it!) most services are pulled.

 

Can anyone help a confused newbie work out what's going on?

 

Thanks,

 

Matt

[The Stationmaster]

Tilbury is easy but not helped by shadows on Google. Basicallt the connect (at the left, and well in shadow) from the running lines divides into a pair of parallel loop lines and these come back together before opening into the fan of sidings which are the terminal itself (if you look closely there are what appears to be a pair of coupled locos standing on one of the loops near the point where they come down into a narrow neck before the fan.

 

I know nothing about the place but have looked at the track layout in Quail and it is as I describe above. In essence the way I would think it is worked (and I can't see much choice to do otherwise) is that arriving trains come into one of the loops, the engine(s) are cut off and then run round via the other loop in order to propel the train into one of the loading/unloading sidings. The engine(s) then either depart for shed or wait there to work an outbound train.

 

As there are only the pair of loops inwards and outwards trains need to be carefully planned to avoid engines being blocked in or unable to get to the right end of their train or shunt but that's a relatively simple planning and train regulating task.

 

Now a model railway fiddle yard is slightly different because trains (usually) run in with the engine at the front and it is then at the wrong end - as you have found. So to get round this there are a number of potential solutions - one is simple, you just pick up the engine from one end and put it on the other (this is often called 'crane shunting', you being the 'crane').

 

The other answers are a bit more complex. The most modern is to use things called cassettes which are basically sidings on a separate board of their own which you can pick up - with the train on it - and turn round. Great idea, fairly simple to make but can't be too long as you have to lift and turn them.

 

The other idea is to have a rotating fiddle yard, a sort of giant turntable on which entire trains are turned round. Not so easy to make as cassettes but possibly having an advantage on very busy layouts.

 

And the great space wasters are to either have a traverser at the end of the fiddle yard so that you can shunt engines out of the way or turn the fiddle yard into loops and just run-round the locos.

 

Go to any exhibition and you are likely to see at least one of the above methods - watch, ask and gradually learn.

Hope this has helped.

[PaulRhB]

And if you want a cassette that takes seconds to build then the Peco SL-43 loco lift is an option. It sits on the track, you drive the loco on and lift it to the other end as the cassette picks up power from the rails it's sat on.

[MattWallace]

 

Go to any exhibition and you are likely to see at least one of the above methods - watch, ask and gradually learn.

Hope this has helped.

 

Thanks, I looked at using/building a traverser in the past and then realised that it probably wasn't an option. I like the idea of a "turn-table" although turning 3' in my garage might be a bit of a struggle.

 

I'll take another closer look @ tilbury - do you have a link to Quail - I've not heard of it before.

[MattWallace]

And if you want a cassette that takes seconds to build then the Peco SL-43 loco lift is an option. It sits on the track, you drive the loco on and lift it to the other end as the cassette picks up power from the rails it's sat on.

 

Thanks, I've seen these before and I now realise how useful they can be - not sure I like the idea of having to manually intervene though, I'll have to think about it...

[Edwin_m]

There's an extra complication with Tilbury because it can receive electric trains. For obvious reasons the electric wires can't go through the loading and unloading area. Either a diesel has to be found or the electric needs to run round its train and propel it as far as the end of the wires just before the start of the loading and unloading area, being very careful not to run off the wires! The loco is then at the right end to take the train out again.

 

If the terminal is only for diesel trains there is the option of running straight in and releasing the loco via connections at the far end of the loading area. This appears to be what happens at Hams Hall.

 

Quail is not a free on-line source, it's a book subject to copyright, although many people don't treat it as such! This Bing view probably shows Tilbury better than Google, including how the overhead ends just before the loading/unloading area.

 

Another idea for a model might be to have a return loop in the fiddle yard so that trains make a tight turn either on the way in or the way out. This is more common in N gauge where it can be fitted on a board about two feet wide. You won't see it on the prototype because "real" trains can't make that sort of radius when scaled up, though there are some power stations where the coal trains go round a larger loop while unloading.

[MattWallace]

There's an extra complication with Tilbury because it can receive electric trains. For obvious reasons the electric wires can't go through the loading and unloading area. Either a diesel has to be found or the electric needs to run round its train and propel it as far as the end of the wires just before the start of the loading and unloading area, being very careful not to run off the wires! The loco is then at the right end to take the train out again.

 

If the terminal is only for diesel trains there is the option of running straight in and releasing the loco via connections at the far end of the loading area. This appears to be what happens at Hams Hall.

 

Quail is not a free on-line source, it's a book subject to copyright, although many people don't treat it as such! This Bing view probably shows Tilbury better than Google, including how the overhead ends just before the loading/unloading area.

 

Another idea for a model might be to have a return loop in the fiddle yard so that trains make a tight turn either on the way in or the way out. This is more common in N gauge where it can be fitted on a board about two feet wide. You won't see it on the prototype because "real" trains can't make that sort of radius when scaled up, though there are some power stations where the coal trains go round a larger loop while unloading.

 

Thanks, that's a huge amount of help.

 

As I'm limited to 2' and this is 00, I think I'm going to have a "mini-traverser" in the Fiddle Yard that is just big enough to take my 66 so I can run trains into the FY with the train off the other end and then traverse "around" onto a second track and back to the correct end to pull it out the FY again.

 

The new layout (I'll update my layout thread in a few minutes) will look like this:

 

 

The purple piece of track is the traverser and as you can see it allows for locos to come into the FY, disconnect (I'm running Kadee's so uncoupling should be easy to deal with!), traverse down the width of the board and emerge from the Shed or run around and pick up other wagons from other roads on the FY.

 

I realise that this may not be "prototypical", however I think that I might have to accept that the rules of Prototype go out the window once you're into the Fiddle Yard...

[melmerby]

do you have a link to Quail - I've not heard of it before.

Quail has changed to Trackmaps - several years ago.

See here: http://www.trackmaps...uk/diagrams.htm

 

N.B. most of the individual books 1-5 haven't been updated for a while AFAIK the Western is the most recent. (2010)

Keith

[big jim]

a good example is dirft, just south of rugby on the northampton line, that accepts electric locos into the reception sidings and the unwired unloading area is off to the left, when i used to work intermodals into there for DRS coming from the north you would enter the reception sidings and work the train down to the shunt signal, uncouple the loco, draw forward to behind a signal to return north, you then went back north past your train to stable the loco either in the north headshunt or on the line that your train would be coming back on to once reloaded (head down for a few hours, the buffering up acting as a handy alarm clock!)

 

an internal use shunter (class 08) would then come along and collect your train and take it south out of the reception siding then it would then propel it back onto the hard standing for unloading, once loaded it pulled the train south off the hard standing then propel north back into the reception sidings

 

if you were parked in the headshunt once the shunter was out of the way you would then return to your train, recouple, brake test, paperwork etc and away.

 

there are so many different methods of work at different terminals that you can really get away with doing as you pleased as long as you feel its right, my suggestion would be a shunter or first loco bringing the train in from the fiddle yard (which can be your "reception siding") then a 2nd loco enters the layout (or comes out of the shed/headshunt) to take over the train, i used to do this quite often at dirft, work one loco in and leave with another, had a nice job one day where i worked a 66 in and left with 47815 and 47832 with 1000+ ton trailing load!

 

i'd say the track plan you have posted looks over complicated to my eyes for a modern intermodal terminal, the right side in particular, i'd just have a couple of lines with loco release, remember you need to be able to get unloading equipment of some sort between the sidings

[edcayton]

Thanks, that's a huge amount of help.

 

As I'm limited to 2' and this is 00, I think I'm going to have a "mini-traverser" in the Fiddle Yard that is just big enough to take my 66 so I can run trains into the FY with the train off the other end and then traverse "around" onto a second track and back to the correct end to pull it out the FY again.

 

The new layout (I'll update my layout thread in a few minutes) will look like this:

 

 

The purple piece of track is the traverser and as you can see it allows for locos to come into the FY, disconnect (I'm running Kadee's so uncoupling should be easy to deal with!), traverse down the width of the board and emerge from the Shed or run around and pick up other wagons from other roads on the FY.

 

I realise that this may not be "prototypical", however I think that I might have to accept that the rules of Prototype go out the window once you're into the Fiddle Yard...

 

I think you are wasting a lot of space in the FY with the traverser. You may find it tricky to build if you're a newbie. If you use the Peco Locolift as suggested you will effectively gain one foot per siding, as soon as you have lifted the loco just push the rest of the train uo to the buffers. Using Kadees I would think would be better than tension lock type couplings.

 

Ed

[roythebus]

Edwin says real trains don't do reverse loops..Eurotunnel terminal? Heathrow T4? Kennington loop on the Northern Line....

 

As for Freightliner termini, how about using an upgraded container crane to lift the loco from one end to the other?

[Fat Controller]

My 'train set' doesn't have a reverse loop- it's a continuous run with tracks branching off to 'fiddle yards' marked 'Network Rail' and 'RFF'...

Felixstowe North FLT is on a return loop, with the tracks into the terminal from the north continuing to rejoin the Felixstowe Beach branch- I suspect the option of running in this way is avoided where possible, as there are 9 level crossings. The normal method of operation is for trains to run either into one of the crane roads (if unoccupied), with the loco running on past the end of the loops, then returning via the reception sidings to the Ipswich end of the yard, or to use the reception loops.

Tilbury has 'dead-end' roads under the cranes, but there is a loop on the approach to them for the loco to run round.

[Edwin_m]

Edwin says real trains don't do reverse loops..Eurotunnel terminal? Heathrow T4? Kennington loop on the Northern Line....

 

I actually said such loops do exist and gave the example of power stations. It's just that they are on a much larger radius than you'd need for a model fiddle yard. Minimum radius for one type of container flat is about 80 metres IIRC.

[edcayton]

 

As for Freightliner termini, how about using an upgraded container crane to lift the loco from one end to the other?

 

And then you could prototypically drop a class 70

 

Ed

[Bar Side]

Have a look at Ipswich - all trains in from Felixstowe come in to the yard by diesel. Trains out towards London go straight on but change over to a class 90 electric. The rest reverse & take a class 66 or 70 out to the midlands via Ely.

[MattWallace]

a good example is dirft, just south of rugby on the northampton line, that accepts electric locos into the reception sidings and the unwired unloading area is off to the left, when i used to work intermodals into there for DRS coming from the north you would enter the reception sidings and work the train down to the shunt signal, uncouple the loco, draw forward to behind a signal to return north, you then went back north past your train to stable the loco either in the north headshunt or on the line that your train would be coming back on to once reloaded (head down for a few hours, the buffering up acting as a handy alarm clock!)

 

an internal use shunter (class 08) would then come along and collect your train and take it south out of the reception siding then it would then propel it back onto the hard standing for unloading, once loaded it pulled the train south off the hard standing then propel north back into the reception sidings

 

if you were parked in the headshunt once the shunter was out of the way you would then return to your train, recouple, brake test, paperwork etc and away.

 

there are so many different methods of work at different terminals that you can really get away with doing as you pleased as long as you feel its right, my suggestion would be a shunter or first loco bringing the train in from the fiddle yard (which can be your "reception siding") then a 2nd loco enters the layout (or comes out of the shed/headshunt) to take over the train, i used to do this quite often at dirft, work one loco in and leave with another, had a nice job one day where i worked a 66 in and left with 47815 and 47832 with 1000+ ton trailing load!

 

i'd say the track plan you have posted looks over complicated to my eyes for a modern intermodal terminal, the right side in particular, i'd just have a couple of lines with loco release, remember you need to be able to get unloading equipment of some sort between the sidings

 

Thanks, that's great.

 

I've worked on a new trackplan this morning and I'll hopfully post it later on today.

 

I've simplified the main layout and I'm working on the FY to see if I can simplify that as well, The way things are going this could end up with a complete redesign (again).

 

One of these days I'm going to have to bite the bullet and just start building, however I need to get all the baseboards built first - at least I've decided on the era and the theme!

[MattWallace]

And then you could prototypically drop a class 70

 

Ed

 

LOL, If Dapol did a kit of the 70, I'd be tempted to melt it slightly so it bowed in the middle and base an entire docks scene around it...

 

Have a look at Ipswich - all trains in from Felixstowe come in to the yard by diesel. Trains out towards London go straight on but change over to a class 90 electric. The rest reverse & take a class 66 or 70 out to the midlands via Ely.

 

Thanks, I'll take a look.