Hayfields turnout workbench

[St Enodoc]

10 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Don

 

Not enough people actually know very much about track gauges, especially those who sell them, also those who start out track building struggle to find the appropriate advice. Sadly in some cases this leads to disappointment. One retailer for years sold inappropriate roller gauges for 00 gauge, and many fail to invest in a decent range presumably due to both cost and lack of interest

 

Soldered construction requires a gauge which holds the rail vertical, where as chaired construction requires a gauge which allows the head of the rail to rotate

 

00 gauge has an inbuilt gauge widening within its standards, P4, EM, 00SF all require gauge widening  in certain instances

 

Then you get to personal preferences, I prefer roller gauges not to have check rail gauges. That's not how you set check and wing rail gaps in P4, EM & P4 gauges !! and to be quite honest they get in the way in 00 gauge. Cost is another factor, gauges are expensive but if looked after last a life time and are really an investment

 

In the old days you could go into a model railway shop and buy a few lengths of rail, some copperclad strips and a roller gauge and cheaply build a turnout. Or buy a SMP turnout kit (still good value starting at £7.75). Many think they have to buy a C&L or Exactoscale kit at £50+, no wonder track building fails to catch on.

 

I would suggest go and buy a kit and a pair of roller gauges, it will be either slightly cheaper or dearer than a Peco Streamline turnout. If the plans have not been updated, don't use them. Download a Templot plan, they are far more accurate. Again if the instructions have not been updated (the one which states to put pins into the plan to hold the rails) just follow one of my or someones elses tutorial.  Its so easy to make a copperclad turnout, but you need a kit, a plan, some instructions and a track gauge or two

I endorse all that John has written and would just add that your first copperclad turnout might turn out to be rubbish. Your second will work but might not look all that good (OK for the fiddle yard though). Your third will be great and after that you'll never look back.

[hayfield]

6 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

I endorse all that John has written and would just add that your first copperclad turnout might turn out to be rubbish. Your second will work but might not look all that good (OK for the fiddle yard though). Your third will be great and after that you'll never look back.

 

On reflection mine was, but because I failed to buy the roller gauges, relying on the aluminum strip provided in the kit (I still have them and use then for wing rail gauges

 

You are spot on in that you get better as you build more. But I think if you have the correct tools (minimum a set of roller gauges) you can build a decent working turnout first time. The biggest/most common fault is rushing to build it and get something running. 

[St Enodoc]

24 minutes ago, hayfield said:

aluminum strip provided in the kit (I still have them and use then for wing rail gauges

Me too!

[Donw]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

Don

 

Not enough people actually know very much about track gauges, especially those who sell them, also those who start out track building struggle to find the appropriate advice. Sadly in some cases this leads to disappointment. One retailer for years sold inappropriate roller gauges for 00 gauge, and many fail to invest in a decent range presumably due to both cost and lack of interest

 

Soldered construction requires a gauge which holds the rail vertical, where as chaired construction requires a gauge which allows the head of the rail to rotate

 

00 gauge has an inbuilt gauge widening within its standards, P4, EM, 00SF all require gauge widening  in certain instances

 

Then you get to personal preferences, I prefer roller gauges not to have check rail gauges. That's not how you set check and wing rail gaps in P4, EM & P4 gauges !! and to be quite honest they get in the way in 00 gauge. Cost is another factor, gauges are expensive but if looked after last a life time and are really an investment

 

In the old days you could go into a model railway shop and buy a few lengths of rail, some copperclad strips and a roller gauge and cheaply build a turnout. Or buy a SMP turnout kit (still good value starting at £7.75). Many think they have to buy a C&L or Exactoscale kit at £50+, no wonder track building fails to catch on.

 

I would suggest go and buy a kit and a pair of roller gauges, it will be either slightly cheaper or dearer than a Peco Streamline turnout. If the plans have not been updated, don't use them. Download a Templot plan, they are far more accurate. Again if the instructions have not been updated (the one which states to put pins into the plan to hold the rails) just follow one of my or someones elses tutorial.  Its so easy to make a copperclad turnout, but you need a kit, a plan, some instructions and a track gauge or two

 

Although I tend to use templot these days because they are good you dont need them a table of leads for various crossing angles pencil ruler and something flexible like a bit of stripwood and you can just draw a few construction lines.  I did this before templot as the templates were all dead straight.

 

Don

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Donw said:

 

Although I tend to use templot these days because they are good you dont need them a table of leads for various crossing angles pencil ruler and something flexible like a bit of stripwood and you can just draw a few construction lines.  I did this before templot as the templates were all dead straight.

 

Don

 

 

Some people like to draw the lines out, but very few know how to draw them out properly, with the subtle bends and curves, plus the correct angles. Then its knowing how the timbers are set out. Certainly the old SMP plans are incorrect starting with the points of the switch blades being on the tiebar and not a timber. I will not carry on as there may well be better plans supplied these days, the ones I have are of the era of their design and now a new company supplies them. Things may have changed a lot from the 70's

 

The other thing, for a non bespoke plan it takes seconds to make and print a simple turnout, if someone can post a reply to a thread they can make a simple turnout plan from templot, its simply a few clicks with the mouse !!!

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, Donw said:

 

Although I tend to use templot these days because they are good you dont need them a table of leads for various crossing angles pencil ruler and something flexible like a bit of stripwood and you can just draw a few construction lines.  I did this before templot as the templates were all dead straight.

 

Don

 

Hi Don,

 

Folks who draw their own templates with a bendy strip invariably fail to allow for the set bend in the turnout-side stock rail. Without it, the switch will be narrow to gauge, and the switch blades will have to be filed excessively long and thin to fit. Which means they won't open properly all along. The set bend is the key to easily building a working turnout. Which makes it surprising that it is so little mentioned in the standard track-building texts.

 

Templot puts a bold orange mark on the template where to make the set bend. It also marks the stock gauge position, where the distance between the stock rails should be exactly one rail-width wider than the track gauge. That's easy to check with an odd bit of rail in the gauge tool.

 

Templot is free to use, and as John says it takes only a few clicks to print any size of template. Here's a beginner video showing how:

 

 https://templot.com/companion/your_first_printed_template.php

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Donw]

2 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Don,

 

Folks who draw their own templates with a bendy strip invariably fail to allow for the set bend in the turnout-side stock rail. Without it, the switch will be narrow to gauge, and the switch blades will have to be filed excessively long and thin to fit. Which means they won't open properly all along. The set bend is the key to easily building a working turnout. Which makes it surprising that it is so little mentioned in the standard track-building texts.

 

Templot puts a bold orange mark on the template where to make the set bend. It also marks the stock gauge position, where the distance between the stock rails should be exactly one rail-width wider than the track gauge. That's easy to check with an odd bit of rail in the gauge tool.

 

Templot is free to use, and as John says it takes only a few clicks to print any size of template. Here's a beginner video showing how:

 

 https://templot.com/companion/your_first_printed_template.php

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

I couldn't agree more about the set bend. It is a key element without it you have a planed edge to the rail which is straight trying to meet with a curved stock rail and then it is much easier for the blade tips to meet too early and narrow the gauge or too late and wide to gauge.

I would recommend Templot to everyone especially where you have a cluster of turnouts.  One of the problems with the commercial and society templates is the fact that they are fixed so if building a layout with them or commercial turnouts for that matter so can end up with small kinks trying to adjust them to fit. Templot will subtly curve a turnout for you. 

 

One situation where I find it easier to just measure up is if I want to add an extra turnout on an existing piece of track that curves slightly I can work out where I want the track to meet and what crossing angle to use and go from there.  As for working out the timbering I know where the blades tips will be and where the crossing will be both sit on a timber so I can then laytimbers at the right spacing between them  and adjust them slightly to fit in. I rather think that was how gangers would build turnouts  only the important or high speed junctions would have been laid out in great detail. I was demonstrating years ago and explaining how you could contruct a turnout from the lead and the crossing angle, a chap sat behind commented that is how we do it on a preserved line.

 

Don

[hayfield]

3 hours ago, Donw said:

 

Although I tend to use templot these days because they are good you dont need them a table of leads for various crossing angles pencil ruler and something flexible like a bit of stripwood and you can just draw a few construction lines.  I did this before templot as the templates were all dead straight.

 

Don

 

21 minutes ago, Donw said:

 

I couldn't agree more about the set bend. It is a key element without it you have a planed edge to the rail which is straight trying to meet with a curved stock rail and then it is much easier for the blade tips to meet too early and narrow the gauge or too late and wide to gauge.

I would recommend Templot to everyone especially where you have a cluster of turnouts.  One of the problems with the commercial and society templates is the fact that they are fixed so if building a layout with them or commercial turnouts for that matter so can end up with small kinks trying to adjust them to fit. Templot will subtly curve a turnout for you. 

 

One situation where I find it easier to just measure up is if I want to add an extra turnout on an existing piece of track that curves slightly I can work out where I want the track to meet and what crossing angle to use and go from there.  As for working out the timbering I know where the blades tips will be and where the crossing will be both sit on a timber so I can then laytimbers at the right spacing between them  and adjust them slightly to fit in. I rather think that was how gangers would build turnouts  only the important or high speed junctions would have been laid out in great detail. I was demonstrating years ago and explaining how you could contruct a turnout from the lead and the crossing angle, a chap sat behind commented that is how we do it on a preserved line.

 

Don

 

Don

 

I am sorry but its not this easy to do it correctly, and even for the most experienced draftsman would take an awful lot of time making a working drawing

 

To start off with I was talking about someone starting out, its highly unlikely they would go to these lengths. Have no idea about turnout geometry, timber positioning or things like a "set" or plaining

 

If they have bought a kit, that is what they want to build. On the other hand if the plan is incorrect, and they have either the wrong gauge or no gauge at all, how can they build something that works well ?

 

Any decent plan is better than a poor one. Next up is an easy to understand set of good instructions.

 

 

 

 

 

[Donw]

17 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 

Don

 

I am sorry but its not this easy to do it correctly, and even for the most experienced draftsman would take an awful lot of time making a working drawing

 

To start off with I was talking about someone starting out, its highly unlikely they would go to these lengths. Have no idea about turnout geometry, timber positioning or things like a "set" or plaining

 

If they have bought a kit, that is what they want to build. On the other hand if the plan is incorrect, and they have either the wrong gauge or no gauge at all, how can they build something that works well ?

 

Any decent plan is better than a poor one. Next up is an easy to understand set of good instructions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is the big problem when I first built my own track using ply and rivet construction the articles I read and the templates I obtained didn't mention set or explain the planning angles on switches or lots of other things. I found trying to understand how the real railways did it to draw my own simple sketch got me to understand how it actually works. The timbering is not critical apart from being level, except from a cosmetic angle.

Once I understood about the planning angles I realised measure the rail head then mark mark the distance off along the rail and you have a guide to file the rail. So if the switch angle is 1:32 and the rail head is 1mm the taper should 32 mmm to the tip. This works irrespective of scale so if your rail is a finer section the taper will be shorter  for the same angle. In practice as long as the set and the taper match it will be fine.

The best suggestion for the novice is to get a simple print of a turnout from templot and build it. If you take the trouble to find out what the chair information, the set, the stock gauge, etc all mean you will learn about turnouts much quicker than I did.

Don

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Donw said:

The best suggestion for the novice is to get a simple print of a turnout from templot and build it.

Not wishing to take anything away from Martin's product but C&L templates are not bad for the novice either (can you still get them?). I do realise that Templot is free of course.

Edited November 14, 2020 by St Enodoc

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

Not wishing to take anything away from Martin's product but C&L templates are not bad for the novice either (can you still get them?). I do realise that Templot is free of course.

I don't think Martin will mind and yes they are still available either singly or as a much larger set including 3 ways, diamonds and slips

 

The set is on the plans as you would expect, but unlike Templot no real mention of it, which a novice builder may miss (should be in the instructions anyway) They are very good plans but there are a few errors in some of them (I am looking at a P4 B6 where the last 16 timbers are inaccurate.

 

The other bonus for more advanced builders is that chair positions are shown, especially as C&L now sell bridge and J chairs in their new sprues,

[martin_wynne]

51 minutes ago, hayfield said:

The other bonus for more advanced builders is that chair positions are shown, especially as C&L now sell bridge and J chairs in their new sprues,

 

 

But be aware that the special crossing chairs are wrongly shown square to the main road. They should be equalized square to the centre-line of the crossing. i.e. slightly skewed if the timbers are square-on to the main road.

 

p.s. whatever it is you think I might mind, I don't.

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

Marin

 

I think its a case of an engineer rather than a permanent way draftsman making the drawing, and as I said if you follow the plan with the error in the timbering it will look lop sided.

 

But this may just be this plan

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, hayfield said:

I don't think Martin will mind and yes they are still available either singly or as a much larger set including 3 ways, diamonds and slips

 

The set is on the plans as you would expect, but unlike Templot no real mention of it, which a novice builder may miss (should be in the instructions anyway) They are very good plans but there are a few errors in some of them (I am looking at a P4 B6 where the last 16 timbers are inaccurate.

 

The other bonus for more advanced builders is that chair positions are shown, especially as C&L now sell bridge and J chairs in their new sprues,

 

7 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

But be aware that the special crossing chairs are wrongly shown square to the main road. They should be equalized square to the centre-line of the crossing. i.e. slightly skewed if the timbers are square-on to the main road.

 

p.s. whatever it is you think I might mind, I don't.

 

Martin.

 

6 hours ago, hayfield said:

Marin

 

I think its a case of an engineer rather than a permanent way draftsman making the drawing, and as I said if you follow the plan with the error in the timbering it will look lop sided.

 

But this may just be this plan

Thanks both. As a copperclad user I don't need to worry about the different chair types. I also slice the plans up and stick them down again to represent equalised timbering and, when necessary, with the centre lines on a curve.

 

It would probably be quicker to learn Templot...

[hayfield]

57 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

 

 

Thanks both. As a copperclad user I don't need to worry about the different chair types. I also slice the plans up and stick them down again to represent equalised timbering and, when necessary, with the centre lines on a curve.

 

It would probably be quicker to learn Templot...

 

St Enodoc

 

Nothing to worry about which chair to use as Exactoscale supply detailed simple to understand diagrams. Where it does become interesting iw haen you are using the special chairs for unsupported turnouts and crossings. A bit like a 3D jigsaw

 

Also nothing wrong with adapting paper plans, in fact I am very impressed if you are equalising the timbers by hand. As you say it is so much easier with Templot as its only two or three clicks with the mouse. If you are this dedicated you will find the basics in Templot easy to use

 

I find threading chairs quite therapeutic, and the special chairs adds a bit of variety

 

 

I have no idea why it uploads sideways are its the correct way up in my album ?

 

This is my special chair storage unit, I got worried they may have been hard to get once Exactoscale only sold via societies !! 

 

 

[down the sdjr]

I have recently had a EMGS delivery. Sleepers, 3 bolt chairs, sliding chairs, code 75 bullhead rail and copper clad strip.

 

I like the Exactoscale chairs big and easy to adjust.

Todays effort.

[St Enodoc]

36 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

St Enodoc

 

Nothing to worry about which chair to use as Exactoscale supply detailed simple to understand diagrams. Where it does become interesting iw haen you are using the special chairs for unsupported turnouts and crossings. A bit like a 3D jigsaw

 

Also nothing wrong with adapting paper plans, in fact I am very impressed if you are equalising the timbers by hand. As you say it is so much easier with Templot as its only two or three clicks with the mouse. If you are this dedicated you will find the basics in Templot easy to use

 

I find threading chairs quite therapeutic, and the special chairs adds a bit of variety

 

 

I have no idea why it uploads sideways are its the correct way up in my album ?

 

This is my special chair storage unit, I got worried they may have been hard to get once Exactoscale only sold via societies !! 

 

 

Thanks John

 

Here's one of my home-made templates - just drawn over the original this time as the straight road is still straight. I cobbled up the timber spacing after reading David Smith's GWR trackwork book.

 

This one is even more of a cobble-up. A friend drew this combination in Templot for me but only concentrated on the rail positions, not the timbers. I modified those myself.

 

Apologies for cheating - I use the third timber as a tiebar.

[hayfield]

10 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Thanks John

 

Here's one of my home-made templates - just drawn over the original this time as the straight road is still straight. I cobbled up the timber spacing after reading David Smith's GWR trackwork book.

 

This one is even more of a cobble-up. A friend drew this combination in Templot for me but only concentrated on the rail positions, not the timbers. I modified those myself.

 

Apologies for cheating - I use the third timber as a tiebar.

 

 

Looking very good, I am surprised you have not taken the step of using Templot yourself. I must confess sometimes I adjust the timbering by hand on the plan.

 

 

Sometimes I use a similar method using a copperclad timber and brass slide chairs

[hayfield]

10 hours ago, down the sdjr said:

I have recently had a EMGS delivery. Sleepers, 3 bolt chairs, sliding chairs, code 75 bullhead rail and copper clad strip.

 

I like the Exactoscale chairs big and easy to adjust.

Todays effort.

 

 

Looking very good, might be worth looking at these Exactoscale products

 

4CH 403A   Check chairs

4CH 201A    Bridge chairs

4CH 501A   Additional slide chairs

4CH 402A   Common crossing chairs

4XX FP01    Locking Fishplates

 

https://exactoscale.com/track-components/chair-positions/

[hayfield]

14 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Thanks John

 

Here's one of my home-made templates - just drawn over the original this time as the straight road is still straight. I cobbled up the timber spacing after reading David Smith's GWR trackwork book.

 

This one is even more of a cobble-up. A friend drew this combination in Templot for me but only concentrated on the rail positions, not the timbers. I modified those myself.

 

Apologies for cheating - I use the third timber as a tiebar.

 

 

Here is my method of a Timber tiebar

Components, copperclad tiebar, two brass slide chairs cut in half

I tin the components

Then solder the slide plates to the copperclad timber

 

Switch rail points soldered to the base plates

Outer parts of the slide chair soldered to the rail (not copperclad strip)

 

One disguised tiebar 

 

[martin_wynne]

Hi John,

 

Just to let you know that in the next Templot program update, there will be a new function to create symmetrical Y-turnouts automatically. Here's a bit of video:

 

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=dNJO8HaY3G73Z2URE_7xQw2

 

I know it's something that has had folks scratching their heads.

 

Update should be available in a week or two.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

Thanks for this, it will save me quite a bit of time, I noticed it on Templot Club earlier, but I thought the video was to follow

 

Thanks very much

6 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

Hi John,

 

Just to let you know that in the next Templot program update, there will be a new function to create symmetrical Y-turnouts automatically. Here's a bit of video:

 

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=dNJO8HaY3G73Z2URE_7xQw2

 

I know it's something that has had folks scratching their heads.

 

Update should be available in a week or two.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

[down the sdjr]

Hi everyone, I would like to butt in with another question as usual, if you don't mind.

I have ordered a job lot of 1.6 mm x 300 mm copper clad sleeper from Wizard models to use for 3rd sleeper tie bars. As I have so much I fancy having a go at a copper clad turnout.

Now, I have a load of EMGS 75 BH but also lots of 75 BH Legacy steel rail. Going to have a go with the steel first but my question is will the BH rail work soldered direct to the sleepers? I know it is not flat bottom but will that make it unusable?

Thanks

Paul.

[martin_wynne]

26 minutes ago, down the sdjr said:

Now, I have a load of EMGS 75 BH but also lots of 75 BH Legacy steel rail. Going to have a go with the steel first but my question is will the BH rail work soldered direct to the sleepers? I know it is not flat bottom but will that make it unusable?

 

There's no problem soldering bullhead rail direct to copper-clad. Folks have been doing it for decades. But make sure you have the rail the right way up -- the thick edge is the top.

 

However, soldering nickel-silver rail will be 100 times easier than soldering steel rail, especially if it is stainless steel. Steel requires higher temperatures and a more aggressive flux, and you risk the copper foil de-laminating if you use steel rail with copper-clad.

 

Martin.

[down the sdjr]

4 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

There's no problem soldering bullhead rail direct to copper-clad. Folks have been doing it for decades. But make sure you have the rail the right way up -- the thick edge is the top.

 

However, soldering nickel-silver rail will be 100 times easier than soldering steel rail, especially if it is stainless steel. Steel requires higher temperatures and a more aggressive flux, and you risk the copper foil de-laminating if you use steel rail with copper-clad.

 

Martin.

Thanks, Martin,

Wise words. I do like working with the nickel-silver rail, I just have so much stainless steel rail at my disposal and trying to find a use for it.

I will use the nickel for a first try, soldered directly to the sleepers. Going to do an EM a5 or b6 curved for my fiddle yard.

Paul.