Hayfields turnout workbench

[2996 Victor]

Hi,

 

I've been reading through this and your Copperclad Turnout Construction threads. I'm increasingly convinced that I will need to build my own track and turnouts for my various projects (4mm narrow gauge), as I am not happy with the massively over-scale rail and noddy appearance of the sleepering on readily available products. Your threads make everything look straightforward.

 

However, it's still a somewhat daunting step as its not something I've attempted before, and, to be honest, I'm no wizard with a soldering iron! As such, I'd be really grateful if you could suggest a few basic tools/materials to get me started. I'm thinking that Code 40 or Code 55 rail is the way to go, flat-bottom,  with copperclad sleeper strip.

 

I'd also be interested to know if anyone can suggest a source for 009 turnout templates, other than the PECO ones, of course.

 

Thanks for any help, and best regards,

 

Mark

[Siberian Snooper]

You can set up Templot to produce templates to your own specification, it's a steep learning curve, but once you see the light, it can be very addictive. it took me 4 or 5 months to get my head around it, but very satisfying once the light was finally turned on.

 

Templot is a free download.

 

 

 

[hayfield]

Mark

 

As Siberian Snooper has suggested Templot is a good place to start with, however as there is no automatic narrow gauge settings you will have to reset them yourself, Both Martin and the Templot club members are extremely helpful and I know will guide you in the right direction

 

Tools are very basic,

I find Antex 25 watt are very good irons for the size of rail you are using, use solder wire (not resin cored) and a good quality liquid flux

I have a selection of files, but a new fine cut 6" or 8" for the rail, plus an old file for the copperclad (glass fibre blunts files), the odd needle file also helps

A decent set of medium wire cutters for the rail and a junior hacksaw for cutting the copperclad strip and making the electrical break (a mini drill cutting disk can be used for this

 

Do get a set of gauges, for 9 & 12 mm gauges go to Marcway, they also do copperclad strip in different widths

 

Most of the tools required you will have to hand, its a simple learning curve, you might be a bit disappointed with the first one or two you build, but that's normal and only a learning curve that all go through. You will never look back, good luck and enjoy

 

 

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, hayfield said:

its a simple learning curve, you might be a bit disappointed with the first one or two you build, but that's normal and only a learning curve that all go through. You will never look back, good luck and enjoy

John is absolutely right. The first point you build will probably be rubbish. The second will work but might not look great. From the third onward you will never look back.

[hayfield]

I think its a case of you are always developing your own style, finding out what works for you and what processes you enjoy more.

 

The other thing is do not rush the build !!. Take care on every step, if something is slightly out, don't leave it, alter it. I find tacking things in place works, when you are happy solder it up properly, another common mistake is using too much solder, I use very thin solder wire. 

[2996 Victor]

Dear All,

 

thank you all for your very helpful replies - you've given me the extra confidence to "have a go"! The first step is to find myself a new soldering iron, solder and flux (as all my stuff is decades old!), and rail and sleeper strip. I'm perfectly prepared for the first few attempts to be poor, but hopefully I'll get the hang of it fairly quickly!

 

For rail, I'm thinking MicroEngineering (made in the USA and available from NGTrains). Good to know that Marcway is a good source for sleeper strip and also track gauges - I didn't know they did narrow gauge ones! Even though it's 009, I'm leaning toward using EM standards for flangeways etc (it's strange, perhaps even sad, that so few attempts seem to be made at finescale narrow gauge). I've got no issue with re-wheeling stock to suit and hopefully the track will have a better appearance and (when I've got the hang of track building!) better running qualities. I'd be grateful for any thoughts on this strategy.

 

What are the thoughts on using soldered sleepers intermittently (every three or four, for instance) with wooden ones in between? I had thought about this approach with the ME rail, using their spikes on wooden sleepers semi-cosmetically between the "structural" soldered ones.

 

I think I've got most of the tools mentioned, although a new fine cut file wouldn't go amiss. For cutting the rail, do the wire cutters give a clean enough cut? What are thoughts on the Xuron rail cutters? Worthwhile?

 

I did briefly look at Templot a couple of years ago when I was first getting back into railway modelling. However, I felt that while I'm fairly computer-literate, the amount of spare time I have available would be better-used in modelling rather than learning a new piece of software, so I didn't pursue it. The kind of layouts I'm planning are small, so I've stuck with more traditional methods of planning. I do use AutoCAD, so I'm considering that as a possibility for transferring my hand-drawn layout plans from paper to digital, and of course that could be used to create point templates for bespoke track layouts.

 

Thanks again for all your help and suggestions - at some point (!), if you don't mind your thread being hijacked, I'll post a photo or two showing my efforts!

 

With very best regards,

 

Mark

Edited March 29, 2019 by 2996 Victor

[2996 Victor]

Incidentally, could a roller-type track gauge designed for Code 55 rail be successfully used with Code 40 rail? Or could it lead to minor variations in track gauge? Just a thought!

 

Thanks again and best regards,

 

Mark

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

What are the thoughts on using soldered sleepers intermittently (every three or four, for instance) with wooden ones in between? I had thought about this approach with the ME rail, using their spikes on wooden sleepers semi-cosmetically between the "structural" soldered ones.

That should work fine. I do exactly that for my fiddle yard points, leaving out about 2/3 of the timbers altogether. Saves both copperclad and time.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

Dear All,

 

thank you all for your very helpful replies - you've given me the extra confidence to "have a go"! The first step is to find myself a new soldering iron, solder and flux (as all my stuff is decades old!), and rail and sleeper strip. I'm perfectly prepared for the first few attempts to be poor, but hopefully I'll get the hang of it fairly quickly!

 

For rail, I'm thinking MicroEngineering (made in the USA and available from NGTrains). Good to know that Marcway is a good source for sleeper strip and also track gauges - I didn't know they did narrow gauge ones! Even though it's 009, I'm leaning toward using EM standards for flangeways etc (it's strange, perhaps even sad, that so few attempts seem to be made at finescale narrow gauge). I've got no issue with re-wheeling stock to suit and hopefully the track will have a better appearance and (when I've got the hang of track building!) better running qualities. I'd be grateful for any thoughts on this strategy.

 

Narrow gauge normally uses sizes of timbers/sleepers similar to standard gauges, just work out the width you require and buy the nearest size. As for your flangeways, your wheel sets will determine the standards you can use the unless you can change the wheel profile/back to back gauges, might be worth looking up on whats available in N gauge now. with both 0 & 00 gauges they narrow the track gauge 0.5 & 0.3 respectively to make better use of the higher quality of ready to run wheels now available, having said this one of the charms of narrow gauge is the eccentric track work

 

1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

What are the thoughts on using soldered sleepers intermittently (every three or four, for instance) with wooden ones in between? I had thought about this approach with the ME rail, using their spikes on wooden sleepers semi-cosmetically between the "structural" soldered ones.

 

No issues doing this and with the cost of copperclad strip an economical solution. Thin ply is quite easy to cut into strips 

 

1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

 

I think I've got most of the tools mentioned, although a new fine cut file wouldn't go amiss. For cutting the rail, do the wire cutters give a clean enough cut? What are thoughts on the Xuron rail cutters? Worthwhile?

 

Medium wire cutters are fine, many use Xuron cutters, as I always prepare the rail ends with files medium size good quality cutters are fine

 

1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

I did briefly look at Templot a couple of years ago when I was first getting back into railway modelling. However, I felt that while I'm fairly computer-literate, the amount of spare time I have available would be better-used in modelling rather than learning a new piece of software, so I didn't pursue it. The kind of layouts I'm planning are small, so I've stuck with more traditional methods of planning. I do use AutoCAD, so I'm considering that as a possibility for transferring my hand-drawn layout plans from paper to digital, and of course that could be used to create point templates for bespoke track layouts.

 

In normal cases Templot is very easy to use, as I said for narrow gauge you have to manually input sleeper/timber sizes and spacing, then for finer flangeways alter the sizes of them, I would warn against this initially until you settle on what wheels you will be using

 

I would be tempted to do a bit of a cheat, by loading an N gauge turnout, remove every other timber  (using the shove timbers facility). You could manually widen every timber, or just adjust timber spacing on the plan by eye. This is a quick and easy process, allowing you an infinite range of sizes, plus curved to a radii of your choosing 

 

1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

Thanks again for all your help and suggestions - at some point (!), if you don't mind your thread being hijacked, I'll post a photo or two showing my efforts!

 

With very best regards,

 

Mark

In Templot a bit of a cheat would be to load an N gauge turnout, remove every other timber. You could manually widen every timber, or just adjust timber spacing on the plan by eye 

 

[hayfield]

Just had a quick play, too a minuet or so

 

 

Bottom plan a N gauge plan

Second from bottom, every other timber removed

Second from top, timbers widened

Top curved

 

Think I used a B6 size so simple

[2996 Victor]

3 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

That should work fine. I do exactly that for my fiddle yard points, leaving out about 2/3 of the timbers altogether. Saves both copperclad and time.

 

Many thanks for confirming what I thought.

 

One of my other planned projects (very early stages of!) will be a quayside scene where the tracks will be buried, so theoretically I should be able to get away with at least double spacing (although it will need continuous check rails and being buried there'll no room for re-doing anything once finished!).

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[2996 Victor]

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Narrow gauge normally uses sizes of timbers/sleepers similar to standard gauges, just work out the width you require and buy the nearest size. As for your flangeways, your wheel sets will determine the standards you can use the unless you can change the wheel profile/back to back gauges, might be worth looking up on whats available in N gauge now. with both 0 & 00 gauges they narrow the track gauge 0.5 & 0.3 respectively to make better use of the higher quality of ready to run wheels now available, having said this one of the charms of narrow gauge is the eccentric track work

 

Thanks, John, the whole sleeper size to rail size is the main reason I want to hand-build track, I just don't like the appearance of the RTR 009 track as it looks completely incorrect when compared to the track of the railways I'm interested in. I'm perfectly happy to re-wheel or adjust the back-to-back on stock to suit finer track. 

 

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

No issues doing this and with the cost of copperclad strip an economical solution. Thin ply is quite easy to cut into strips 

 

Need to source some plywood strips.....although I stole some coffee stirrers from a high street coffee shop at lunchtime 

 

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Medium wire cutters are fine, many use Xuron cutters, as I always prepare the rail ends with files medium size good quality cutters are fine

 

I need to get some new cutters as mine are generally used in the garage for cutting split pins and locking wire on vintage car gearboxes.....

 

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

In normal cases Templot is very easy to use, as I said for narrow gauge you have to manually input sleeper/timber sizes and spacing, then for finer flangeways alter the sizes of them, I would warn against this initially until you settle on what wheels you will be using

 

I would be tempted to do a bit of a cheat, by loading an N gauge turnout, remove every other timber  (using the shove timbers facility). You could manually widen every timber, or just adjust timber spacing on the plan by eye. This is a quick and easy process, allowing you an infinite range of sizes, plus curved to a radii of your choosing 

 

In Templot a bit of a cheat would be to load an N gauge turnout, remove every other timber. You could manually widen every timber, or just adjust timber spacing on the plan by eye 

 

 

You've made Templot sound quite tempting and it sounds quite versatile, so I may well give it another go over the next few days.

 

In the meantime, thanks once again for all your advice.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[2996 Victor]

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

Just had a quick play, too a minuet or so

 

 

Bottom plan a N gauge plan

Second from bottom, every other timber removed

Second from top, timbers widened

Top curved

 

Think I used a B6 size so simple

 

That's an interesting development progression. Yes, I think I'll revisit Templot over the next few days.

 

In the meantime, I've plumped for Code 55 and ordered some Trifecta 3-point track gauges from FastTracks, and some Micro Engineering rail from NG Trains, together with some of their spikes for the inter-PCB wooden sleepers. I'm also going to order some roller gauges, probably from Marcway, Next job is a bit of research on my chosen prototypes - Ashover Light Railway and Lynton & Barnstaple Railway - to determine their sleeper size, and I can then decide which size PCB sleepers to order.

 

Thanks again to everyone for all your advice!

 

With very best regards,

 

Mark

[hayfield]

Mark

 

Various companies sell ply timbers, C&L, Timber Tracks and Exactoscale to name a few.

 

You could buy thin sheets of ply from model shops and cut them with Stanley knife

 

Those coffee stirrers can be bought in boxes, just need to find the sizes, or a more expensive route is wood strip from model shops

 

Timber track for example sell packs of 50 lengths in 4 mm scale  (I think 17" long) 12" & 14"  are about £9 a pack with 10" being £12 0.8 mm thick

[2996 Victor]

1 minute ago, hayfield said:

Mark

 

Various companies sell ply timbers, C&L, Timber Tracks and Exactoscale to name a few.

 

You could buy thin sheets of ply from model shops and cut them with Stanley knife

 

Those coffee stirrers can be bought in boxes, just need to find the sizes, or a more expensive route is wood strip from model shops

 

Timber track for example sell packs of 50 lengths in 4 mm scale  (I think 17" long) 12" & 14"  are about £9 a pack with 10" being £12 0.8 mm thick

 

Thanks again, John! I did briefly look at Timber Tracks yesterday, so will have another look there. The coffee stirrers were a bit of a joke as they're a bit wide, but there may be a use for them.

 

Best regards,

 

Mark

[Tom D]

Just a word of warning on using spikes, spikes generally tend to work better on soft woods like pine, and in North America, most modelers use spikes by driving the spike into the sleeper without pre-drilling a hole, if you are using plywood, you may have to pre-drill the hole for the spike to prevent the sleeper from splitting.

[martin_wynne]

8 hours ago, hayfield said:

In Templot a bit of a cheat would be to load an N gauge turnout, remove every other timber. You could manually widen every timber, or just adjust timber spacing on the plan by eye

 

Hi John,

 

There are some sample Templot 009 templates available for downloading. Much faster than fiddling about converting from N gauge, and using F5 you can change them to any crossing angle:

 

 

They are fictional designs based on no specific prototype.

 

Downloads from: http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=28&forum_id=10

 

I have updated the files for Templot2, and also added the option for flat-bottom rails.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[martin_wynne]

17 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

 

Thanks again, John! I did briefly look at Timber Tracks yesterday, so will have another look there. The coffee stirrers were a bit of a joke as they're a bit wide, but there may be a use for them.

 

Hi Mark,

 

A wide range of limewood strip sizes is available from model boat suppliers. See for example: https://www.model-dockyard.com/acatalog/Lime.html

 

You are probably looking for 1.5mm or 2mm thick, by 3mm wide (9" scale). See above link sizes LS1.5X3 , LS2X3

 

Other boatbuilding suppliers may be cheaper, but smaller range. Worth a google.

 

Limewood is a soft easily worked wood (similar/same wood as Basswood).

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[2996 Victor]

1 hour ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Mark,

 

A wide range of limewood strip sizes is available from model boat suppliers. See for example: https://www.model-dockyard.com/acatalog/Lime.html

 

You are probably looking for 1.5mm or 2mm thick, by 3mm wide (9" scale). See above link sizes LS1.5X3 , LS2X3

 

Other boatbuilding suppliers may be cheaper, but smaller range. Worth a google.

 

Limewood is a soft easily worked wood (similar/same wood as Basswood).

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Hi Martin,

 

Many thanks for the pointers!

 

I had another look at Timber Tracks and also C+L, but their wood sleepers seem to be available only in 4mm widths. I'll need 3mm width for the L&B and 2mm width for the ALR, so it's good to know what's out there!

 

Many thanks again and best regards,

 

Mark

[St Enodoc]

On 29/03/2019 at 22:43, St Enodoc said:

That should work fine. I do exactly that for my fiddle yard points, leaving out about 2/3 of the timbers altogether. Saves both copperclad and time.

Here are some fiddle yard points that I've recovered from my previous layout for reuse , which should give you the general idea.

 

[hayfield]

7mm scale 3 way on the workbench (too big for thee workbench but on the base of what will be a new layout)

 

 

The common crossings were made as sub assemblies first, then fitted together and assembled on the timbers, using gauges the stock rails are fitted from right to left.

 

 

A closer view of the crossing. Before I do any more I will run or two a loco through the crossings, if all OK I can then fix the rest of the top stock rail in place before fitting the switch rails and the remainder of the bottom stock rail

[hayfield]

The latest project on the bench is a B8 in P4 gauge, ply timbers and 2 bolt GWR chairs. Here are a few photos to explain my methods

I start by sticking the timbers to some tracing paper over the plan with some very thin double sided tape, then plan where the different chairs go

After building the common crossing I fit the standard chairs

Then stick the common crossing to the timbers (checking its dead centre) and fit half chairs, slab and bracket chairs and other details

Close up view of the added details

Being GWR the stock rails need a joggle, a couple of bits of scrap are taped to the rail

Then squashed in a vice

Chairs fitted to the stock rail

Which is then fitted at the heal end with gauges and by eye at the toe end

A steel rule is used to ensure the stock rail is straight

[St Enodoc]

28 minutes ago, hayfield said:

The latest project on the bench is a B8 in P4 gauge, ply timbers and 2 bolt GWR chairs. Here are a few photos to explain my methods

I start by sticking the timbers to some tracing paper over the plan with some very thin double sided tape, then plan where the different chairs go

After building the common crossing I fit the standard chairs

Then stick the common crossing to the timbers (checking its dead centre) and fit half chairs, slab and bracket chairs and other details

Close up view of the added details

Being GWR the stock rails need a joggle, a couple of bits of scrap are taped to the rail

Then squashed in a vice

Chairs fitted to the stock rail

Which is then fitted at the heal end with gauges and by eye at the toe end

A steel rule is used to ensure the stock rail is straight

John, can you please show us a close-up of the joggle? I've read about that method but never used it yet, just relying on pliers.

[hayfield]

1 minute ago, St Enodoc said:

John, can you please show us a close-up of the joggle? I've read about that method but never used it yet, just relying on pliers.

 

I can but it will be a few days when I start another one

 

The theory is quite simple, just get 2 pieces of brass shim, Mark the joggle point, at the toe of the turnout the shim goes on the outside, the other side of the line the shim goes on the inside. make sure there is a 2 to 3 mm gap between the two (this is where the joggle occurs. Then just squash them in a vice, job done

[St Enodoc]

5 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

I can but it will be a few days when I start another one

 

The theory is quite simple, just get 2 pieces of brass shim, Mark the joggle point, at the toe of the turnout the shim goes on the outside, the other side of the line the shim goes on the inside. make sure there is a 2 to 3 mm gap between the two (this is where the joggle occurs. Then just squash them in a vice, job done

Thanks John. Look forward to comparing the outcome with mine. How thick is the shim you use - about 0.5mm?