Hayfields turnout workbench

[Grovenor]

1 hour ago, mullie said:

Where do you buy girder rail?

Pay attention to Andy Reicherts posts, he sells it. And gave a link a few posts ago.

http://www.proto87.com/Paved_industrial_or_dockside_track.html

[hayfield]

I am sorry but I just assumed mullie was after a UK supplier, it makes life both simpler and postage wise a lot cheaper plus less hassle with import tax

[martin_wynne]

Hi John,

 

Nothing to do with this topic, but I thought you might like to know that the latest Templot update (226a) now shows the total lengths of pointwork timbering and plain track sleepering separately. Also the total numbers of each. I know it is something you wanted. More info:

 

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3659&forum_id=1

 

Templot can update automatically if you restart it.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

4 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

Hi John,

 

Nothing to do with this topic, but I thought you might like to know that the latest Templot update (226a) now shows the total lengths of pointwork timbering and plain track sleepering separately. Also the total numbers of each. I know it is something you wanted. More info:

 

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3659&forum_id=1

 

Templot can update automatically if you restart it.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Martin

 

Thanks for posting the update, after emails I look at Templot club first (just a routine of 4 sites I check) looks very impressive. I will struggle on the cleaning up bit but having the bare bones will help a lot.

 

What is the minimum crossing angle please? 

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

What is the minimum crossing angle please? 

 

Hi John,

 

The minimum angle in the diamond is the same as elsewhere in Templot, 1:1.5

 

Of course it would be a struggle to put any sort of slip road in that, but you can use exactly the same process to create a half-scissors side road on it:

 

 

That's a 1:3 diamond-crossing.

 

For an outside slip (i.e. where one rail cuts through the diamond) something around 1:4.5 is typical:

 

 

When you get to 1:6 and above, you would usually go for a conventional inside slip, because an outside slip would need too much space.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited May 6, 2020 by martin_wynne

[hayfield]

 

Final turnout of the inglenook nearly finished, might need to gauge widen (or narrow the infill) a bit on this one on the right hand road, I have used a 3 point gauge, just need to see how things progress

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi John,

 

The minimum angle in the diamond is the same as elsewhere in Templot, 1:1.5

 

Of course it would be a struggle to put any sort of slip road in that, but you can use exactly the same process to create a half-scissors side road on it:

 

 

That's a 1:3 diamond-crossing.

 

For an outside slip (i.e. where one rail cuts through the diamond) something around 1:4.5 is typical:

 

 

When you get to 1:6 and above, you would usually go for a conventional inside slip, because an outside slip would need too much space.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Martin

 

Thanks another bit of extra learning

[Andy Reichert]

20 hours ago, hayfield said:

I am sorry but I just assumed mullie was after a UK supplier, it makes life both simpler and postage wise a lot cheaper plus less hassle with import tax

 

I have a Hertfordshire address for shipping popular items in the UK with zero hassle.  Just email me and ask for that service when ordering from the the UK. 

 

Andy

 

 

[Andy Reichert]

 

Just when you thought life was too complicated, along comes a picture of an actual prototype girder rail double slip.   I need a few of these personally, so yes it's on on my hand building track parts to do list, later this year hopefully.

 

Enjoy.

 

Andy

 

[hayfield]

Does not look like anything that was in and around the west country(UK) in the steam era

[Andy Reichert]

10 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi John,

 

The minimum angle in the diamond is the same as elsewhere in Templot, 1:1.5

 

Of course it would be a struggle to put any sort of slip road in that, but you can use exactly the same process to create a half-scissors side road on it:

 

 

That's a 1:3 diamond-crossing.

 

For an outside slip (i.e. where one rail cuts through the diamond) something around 1:4.5 is typical:

 

 

When you get to 1:6 and above, you would usually go for a conventional inside slip, because an outside slip would need too much space.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

The minimum frog number for diamond crossing (and inside slip variations) with fixed "K" frogs varies by national prototype standards.  In the US it's #6, in Germany it's #9 and in the UK, (I think) it's #8.  Beyond those numbers the "K" frogs are replaced with pairs of moving points.

 

The technical reasons are a little complex, but basically, it's dangerous to have frog vee gaps that are close to dead opposite each other and divewrging in the same direction. Then check rails can't properly protect the which route a wheel can take. The smaller the minimum wheel diameter, the worse the risk.

 

This definitely complicates thing for scale modelling, but IMHO, the appearance of the fully working models on a layout justifies going the extra miles. Plus of course trains with long passenger coaches look a lot better if curving through a higher number slip. I have some of my own #8 slips that are currently under construction.  Hopefully I'll be able to post some pictures soon.

 

Andy

[martin_wynne]

10 minutes ago, Andy Reichert said:

The minimum frog number for diamond crossing (and inside slip variations) with fixed "K" frogs varies by national prototype standards.  In the US it's #6, in Germany it's #9 and in the UK, (I think) it's #8.  Beyond those numbers the "K" frogs are replaced with pairs of moving points.

 

Hi Andy,

 

In the UK for bullhead track for most companies it was 1:8, for some it was 1:9. But those apply only where all 4 legs of the diamond are straight.

 

If there is curving the limit is smaller. All the information is available in the help notes inside Templot (and has been for 20 years):

 

 

The modern Network Rail rules are broadly similar, but vary with line speed and other factors. I can't scan them for copyright reasons.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Andy Reichert]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

Does not look like anything that was in and around the west country(UK) in the steam era

 

Defintely Steam Era but heavily used by trains of almost 70  ft long Interurban cars. This was one of at least 3 located in Los Angeles, but was possibly manufactured in the UK, as was much of the US street "special work" and around the early part of the 20 th century.

 

Andy

[Andy Reichert]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

Does not look like anything that was in and around the west country(UK) in the steam era

 

 

 

 

Definitely Steam Era but heavily used by trains of almost 70  ft long Interurban cars. This was one of at least 3 located in Los Angeles, but was possibly manufactured in the UK, as was much of the US street "special work" and around the early part of the 20 th century.

 

Andy

Edited May 6, 2020 by Andy Reichert
Add picture

[Andy Reichert]

1 hour ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Andy,

 

In the UK for bullhead track for most companies it was 1:8, for some it was 1:9. But those apply only where all 4 legs of the diamond are straight.

 

If there is curving the limit is smaller. All the information is available in the help notes inside Templot (and has been for 20 years):

 

 

 

The modern Network Rail rules are broadly similar, but vary with line speed and other factors. I can't scan them for copyright reasons.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Yes, I think I still have my museum piece purchased Templot CD from the last century somewhere.    But back then it didn't make laying FB rail at all easy, so ended up gathering dust I'm afraid, as the assembly jigs happened much faster.

 

 

Here's a US HO model #8 FB Switched diamond prototype. You can see the bending notches at the shallow vees. Note the switch points are relatively short. Would those also be need to hinged in UK (non GWR) versions I wonder?

 

Making these points in FB was a pain.  Fortunately I've almost finished "3D printed" versions now for new builds.

 

Andy

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, Andy Reichert said:

 Would those also be need to hinged in UK (non GWR) versions I wonder?

 

Not usually, they are flexible switches in the UK.

 

UK flat-bottom switch-diamonds.

 

 

clamped out of use:

both photos © thanks to Mick Nicholson

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

The turnout was finished then experiment 3 was started

 

 

the cork is very easy to cut, and looks OK but to form its a lot more difficult. At the moment balsa may have the edge probably id I use sanding sealer first to stiffen it up. On the other hand I may try making card templates then cut out the cork.  

 

To stiffen up card you use shellac, is knotting sealer the same/similar stuff ? 

Edited May 7, 2020 by hayfield

[martin_wynne]

Hi John,

 

It has just struck me that inset track infills would be a great project for a 3D filament printer. Could be done from the Templot files, and have setts or other paving included on the surface.

 

I will see what can be done as 3D-printer-ready exports from Templot.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

23 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

Hi John,

 

It has just struck me that inset track infills would be a great project for a 3D filament printer. Could be done from the Templot files, and have setts or other paving included on the surface.

 

I will see what can be done as 3D-printer-ready exports from Templot.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

 

Martin

 

The 3D printer will be far more accurate than the track builder

[Andy Reichert]

1 hour ago, martin_wynne said:

Hi John,

 

It has just struck me that inset track infills would be a great project for a 3D filament printer. Could be done from the Templot files, and have setts or other paving included on the surface.

 

I will see what can be done as 3D-printer-ready exports from Templot.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

 

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

 

Martin

 

The 3D printer will be far more accurate than the track builder

 

See Simon Dawson's 'Recreation21' 3D printed inset tram track system in Shapeways. (He  is "rue_d_etropal" on RM WEB). In my experience ofmaking large quantities of Inset track, it's fair to say that comparatively, filler insert 3D printing costs will be measured in Pounds per linear foot, whereas a similar exercise by laser cutting is measured in feet per Pound. 3D printing is also about 20 times slower.

 

 

 

 

In my case I can produce the whole surrounding street for hardly more that cost and time of a narrow single track.

 

I completely agree with Hayfield about not trying to fit precision machine produced output on top of hand crafted track work that is only hand aligned to paper templates. Back in my engineering drawing days, I learned that a pencil line was around 0.015" across. So expect traditional 1960's type hand building to easily vary off Templots plotted position by at least +/- 0.1mm.

 

Andy

[martin_wynne]

7 hours ago, Andy Reichert said:

it's fair to say that comparatively, filler insert 3D printing costs will be measured in Pounds per linear foot

 

Hi Andy,

 

There you go again. I just don't get it.

 

I have a 3D filament printer for my hobbies. Quite a few other modellers have the same. They run unattended. Templot is free. The actual cost to us of a 3D printed insert will be the cost of the polymer, and the cost of the electricity to melt it. How you get that to several pounds per linear foot is beyond me. I estimate the total cost of infill for a turnout might be around 50p. What does it matter how slow it is if it runs unattended? There are dozens of other layout jobs to get on with while it is running. Almost certainly the printer will have produced the inserts faster than I can build the turnout for them.

 

And if we make them in winter in a temperature-controlled room we don't even need to include the cost of the electricity -- the heat will be dissipated into the room and offset the existing room heating costs.

 

Martin.

Edited May 8, 2020 by martin_wynne
typo

[hayfield]

Andy

 

If I wanted tram track then I would go for it, also I am using parts I have in stock. which not only saves money but saves waiting for items in the post (Which sadly is showing signs of coping less well). Most of all this is a test piece to prove the suitably initially of the project, then the best methods using the skills I have.  Tram modelling has no interest to me at the moment, same as cast frogs which I do actually own made many years ago by Peco.

 

The rail is in a tube marked PSM, standard nickle silver rail I have had for years, bought cheaply off eBay years ago

The copperclad also I have in stock, but will cost to replace, but as I am using about a third than a usual turnout costs are relatively low

Card was free from work, balsa left over from other projects as was the cork.

 

Martin's thoughts are of interest and I guess when home printers become the norm it may be a method that could be used with Templot, may even be possible to use interlocking parts to hold the rails and all soldering done with 70 degree solder, the cost being partly offset by not using expensive copperclad strip 

[St Enodoc]

30 minutes ago, hayfield said:

Andy

 

If I wanted tram track then I would go for it, also I am using parts I have in stock. which not only saves money but saves waiting for items in the post (Which sadly is showing signs of coping less well). Most of all this is a test piece to prove the suitably initially of the project, then the best methods using the skills I have.  Tram modelling has no interest to me at the moment, same as cast frogs which I do actually own made many years ago by Peco.

 

The rail is in a tube marked PSM, standard nickle silver rail I have had for years, bought cheaply off eBay years ago

The copperclad also I have in stock, but will cost to replace, but as I am using about a third than a usual turnout costs are relatively low

Card was free from work, balsa left over from other projects as was the cork.

 

Martin's thoughts are of interest and I guess when home printers become the norm it may be a method that could be used with Templot, may even be possible to use interlocking parts to hold the rails and all soldering done with 70 degree solder, the cost being partly offset by not using expensive copperclad strip 

PSM - Precision Scale Models of Newport?

[hayfield]

1 minute ago, St Enodoc said:

PSM - Precision Scale Models of Newport?

 

 

Spot on, I think I have has things like tiebars etc as well over time

[Donw]

I can just see my wife accepting the argument 'dont worry about the cost of running the 3D printer. It is warming the room up'  countered  'your not running that in the lounge and if the train room is cold put on a jumper!

 

Don