Hayfields turnout workbench

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Donw said:

I can just see my wife accepting the argument 'dont worry about the cost of running the 3D printer. It is warming the room up'  countered  'your not running that in the lounge and if the train room is cold put on a jumper!

 

Don

 

 

Don

 

Thankfully my wife listened to the argument when we moved houses, instead of buying a shed as we were building an extension anyway it would be the same cost to build it in brick, and the heating would be so much cheaper as it would now be an inside room connected to the central heating, little did I realise she had sussed out she could enlarge the kitchen by nicking six square meters of my space. At least it in in the warm rather than being out in the cold

[Donw]

Actually I would imagine it might be better to have the printer away from the house I believe some create fumes. My wife responds better to complete honesty. Admit I am spending money on my hobby and it will usually be accepted. She did suggest I bought a live steam model of Dolgoch last year at £1550 so I have no complaints.

It is an interesting thought a to whether it would be better to build the track to fit in a ready cut or printed circuit or build the track and then cut the surface to fit the track.

 

Don

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, Donw said:

Actually I would imagine it might be better to have the printer away from the house I believe some create fumes.

 

Hi Don,

 

For filament printers it depends on the type of polymer (plastic). The common and easy-to-use PLA polymer gives off a very slight smell which is quite pleasant and reminiscent of jam-making (it's made from sugar cane and is non-toxic). No actual smoke or fumes.

 

Here's my well-behaved filament printer in the house:

 

 

Unfortunately PLA can't be glued with the usual modelling solvents. For that you need to use ABS polymer, which can give off unpleasant fumes, especially if you let it get too hot.

 

Resin printers (a completely different thing) do use some unpleasant chemicals with a strong smell (similar to fibreglass moulding). Not suitable for a domestic environment.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Andy Reichert]

On 07/05/2020 at 17:32, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Andy,

 

There you go again. I just don't get it.

 

I have a 3D filament printer for my hobbies. Quite a few other modellers have the same. They run unattended. Templot is free. The actual cost to us of a 3D printed insert will be the cost of the polymer, and the cost of the electricity to melt it. How you get that to several pounds per linear foot is beyond me. I estimate the total cost of infill for a turnout might be around 50p. What does it matter how slow it is if it runs unattended? There are dozens of other layout jobs to get on with while it is running. Almost certainly the printer will have produced the inserts faster than I can build the turnout for them.

 

And if we make them in winter in a temperature-controlled room we don't even need to include the cost of the electricity -- the heat will be dissipated into the room and offset the existing room heating costs.

 

Martin.

 

 

As you pointed out, this a hobby, so naturally I only considered the likely material costs in my post. How much time (and when) you spend designing and then waiting for the printer is irrelevant. But material is always an out of pocket consumable expense, no matter what your situation.

So just to make sure neither if us is misleading anyone, let’s consider an inset track surface example using actual numbers.

 

A 1 kg reel of ABS filament at a density of 1.1 to 1.2, will produce a printed solid volume of about 900 cc. For comparison a popular Slaters Plastickard plain plastic sheet at 0.5mm thickness and 220 x 330 mm has a volume of 36 cc.  So the 1 kg will produce the equivalent of 25 sheets of standard thickness Plastikard. Retail price of which is UKP 1.33 + VAT or  UKP 33.25 + VAT

 

On checking on Amazon UK, I’m seeing prices of a 1 kg reel to vary widely from UKP 20 to UKP 50. (presumably VAT included)   So basically, the 3D printing purely as a hobby material cost for flat surfaces is in the same ball park as buying Slaters Plastickard.

 

Definitely not insignificant!  

 

For printing a surface flush with the height of 4mm scale rail head, then an only 0.5mm thick surface would need height support and strengthening ribs underneath to raise the height to sit at least 2mm above the sleeper height. I would expect that would nearly double the plain sheet material volume needed for a 50 mm wide inset track ROW.

 

The equivalent Slaters size sheet will likely give you about 4 full track clearance inset surface widths of 330 mm long and. Therefore would cost moderately a little over 65 p per strip for just the material.  Or in my case, my cost for a 300 mm wide 4 lane road way with center tracks, about UKP4.00 per linear foot.

 

Based on the reasonable figures above your example of surfacing an inset track turnout would have a material cost of about 1 UKP. And buying Plastikard and adding some support thickness would be about the same.  If your typical hobbyist doesn't own his own printer and needs to use Shapeways, then I have no idea how much more that might cost.   But Recreation 21's prices may be a good guide

 

Andy

[Andy Reichert]

On 08/05/2020 at 01:22, hayfield said:

Andy

 

If I wanted tram track then I would go for it, also I am using parts I have in stock. which not only saves money but saves waiting for items in the post (Which sadly is showing signs of coping less well). Most of all this is a test piece to prove the suitably initially of the project, then the best methods using the skills I have.  Tram modelling has no interest to me at the moment, same as cast frogs which I do actually own made many years ago by Peco.

 

The rail is in a tube marked PSM, standard nickle silver rail I have had for years, bought cheaply off eBay years ago

The copperclad also I have in stock, but will cost to replace, but as I am using about a third than a usual turnout costs are relatively low

Card was free from work, balsa left over from other projects as was the cork.

 

Martin's thoughts are of interest and I guess when home printers become the norm it may be a method that could be used with Templot, may even be possible to use interlocking parts to hold the rails and all soldering done with 70 degree solder, the cost being partly offset by not using expensive copperclad strip 

 

I presume track hand building topics on RM WEB are not  intended for we older generations who mostly by now already know how to do it, at least by published traditional methods . So in suggesting expected costs, for the current averageage  readers, I tend to think in terms of the current cost of materials and components. For example I still have sufficient unused "Jones of Chiswick" BH rail hidden away somewhere to build a small size UK layout.  But my consequent net cost of perhaps Half a Crown per turnout if I used it today, sadly isn't something I could pass on the others.

 

Andy

[martin_wynne]

Hi Andy,

 

For the 3D printing you assumed 100% density fill. That is usually used only for structural items. For cosmetic items, a 20% fill honeycomb is the usual output, with a solid skin, about 0.2mm thick. This uses far less polymer and prints a lot faster.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

13 minutes ago, Andy Reichert said:

 

I presume track hand building topics on RM WEB are not  intended for we older generations who mostly by now already know how to do it, at least by published traditional methods . So in suggesting expected costs, for the current averageage  readers, I tend to think in terms of the current cost of materials and components. For example I still have sufficient unused "Jones of Chiswick" BH rail hidden away somewhere to build a small size UK layout.  But my consequent net cost of perhaps Half a Crown per turnout if I used it today, sadly isn't something I could pass on the others.

 

Andy

 

Andy

 

As you well know track building topics in RMweb vary greatly, from using old Bonds castings pinned to timbers, to 3D printing at the other spectrum

 

I am also of the older generation, whilst I am not into 3D printing (other than buying the odd parts from Modelu or Shapeways) there is always something new to learn. In someways there is nothing wrong with traditional methods, unless they become obsolete

 

Not using something for several decades is not the only way of buying inexpensive parts. Those PSM rails I have had for 10-15 years and were a very cheap buy off eBay, still buying the odd item as and when I see them, but somethings you have pay full price for. The price of many of the Exactoscale parts had in some cases large price reductions about 2 years ago.

 

Other money saving methods are to reuse old unwanted flexitrack rail. A word of warning about your Jones rail, its profile may struggle to fit into plastic chairs 

[hayfield]

Just posted a free standing thread on using the EMGS common crossing jig

 

 

I have had one for ages but never used it

 

So easy to use

 

 

Just totally missed this super little aid

 

 

Link to my post

 

 

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

Just posted a free standing thread on using the EMGS common crossing jig

 

 

 

I have had one for ages but never used it

 

 

So easy to use

So simple! I might make one for myself.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

So simple! I might make one for myself.

 

I was going to say is it work it as it costs a few £'s but then I see where you live. The gaps for 4 mm scale need to match the width of either the timbers or the material you are using. Such a simple solution to an issue that causes folk so many issues

 

The hair grips are fine for the job, but I will look out for some small bulldog clips

[St Enodoc]

1 minute ago, hayfield said:

 

I was going to say is it work it as it costs a few £'s but then I see where you live. The gaps for 4 mm scale need to match the width of either the timbers or the material you are using. Such a simple solution to an issue that causes folk so many issues

 

The hair grips are fine for the job, but I will look out for some small bulldog clips

Thanks John. I assume you need to be an EMGS member too?. No problem filing some slots to match SMP copperclad strip I think. I like the trick for using the filing jig to form wing rails too - I'll be trying that (I've got a vee jig and a blade jig which a kind member obtained on my behalf. I can't get on with the blade jig though - I just use it to start the front of the blade to keep clear of the foot).

[Tim Dubya]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

So simple! I might make one for myself.

 

We'll send the toys around! (not me, I'm a lover, not a fighter).

 

[hayfield]

 

I have not been idle recently, just the job to test out/get used to the EMGS common crossing assembly jig. Simple 00 gauge single slip, Exactoscale chairs and timbers and C&L HiNi rail

[hayfield]

 

I am building a 3 way in P4 gauge, the timbers have been placed on the plan (on a larger building board) and last night I started building the common crossings. I have a couple of smaller building boards either for very small turnouts or for building sub assemblies. Brass 2 x 0.5 mm strips for strength, these and the rails now need cutting to length and filing.

 

Chair selection will be interesting as there are no special chairs for 3 ways, plus a couple of odd sized common crossings, as well as the standard special chairs I find old sprues from slips and obtuse crossings to be helpful, the odd near enough chair is OK and better than a chopped up or missing one

[martin_wynne]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

I am building a 3 way in P4 gauge

 

 

Hi John,

 

That's a coincidence -- Tony Wilkins has also just posted about building a tandem in P4, in his topic on turnout construction:

 

 https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=77318#p77318

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

 

Gardening and football keep getting in the way lately, still it gives the sub assemblies time to set, along the top tone of the stock rails is taking shape, just a few more chairs required before fitting can commence.

 

[hayfield]

 

The 3 way moved on a bit over the weekend the common crossings are all set and checked

 

 

I am starting to fit and chair the switch rails, but its a case of checking all 6 rails are interacting with each other

 

 

The missing timber will be copperclad and will act as the tiebar. Next up are the special switch chairs, but as these are not quite standard size which Exactoscale has plans for its a bit of trial and error which ones fit

[hayfield]

 

The latest item on the workbench is an EM gauge B8 curved trailing crossover

 

 

The curve of the crossover adds a slightly more difficulty into the build. I have decided to to fix in place the start of the common crossings first, leaving the exits to the common crossing loose to start with 

[hayfield]

 

Setting the common crossings up with the inner stock rails to ensure a smooth transition 

[hayfield]

 

Stock rails are being fitted, and a start on the switch rails. I tend to fit the straight or outside stock rail first, the other stock rail is tacked into position. I then fit the switch rail that is opposite the stock rail which is stuck in place, this allows me to fit the center parts of the special switch rails. The remaining stock and switch rail can now be fitted together.

[down the sdjr]

Hi Hayfield,

Built my 2nd ever point, 1st with a Templot print out, made mistakes but getting better i hope. Managed to do the soldering on this one, i needed a lesson in tinning the soldering iron tip, so much better now. I also filed the stock rails for the switch blades.

It is a 00 BF 1.25mm common crossing from C&L, plan to make the next couple in 00 SF 1mm.

I am using thin sleepers as i bought a job lot off ebay, i am using poly cement to glue sleepers to the paper, they seem to hold well and do not curve with the Liquid glue for the chairs.

Onwards and upwards.

Paul.

 

 

[martin_wynne]

Hi Paul,

 

Well done, you're getting there.

 

Looking at the template, I think that's an A-4.5? Curving one of those makes for a very tight inside radius, as you can see.

 

You would get a much easier radius for the same length of turnout by changing to a 9ft switch instead of the "A" switch. In Templot, click template > switch settings... , and then click 9ft straight heel switch at the top of the list.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[down the sdjr]

2 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

Looking at the template, I think that's an A-4.5? Curving one of those makes for a very tight inside radius, as you can see.

Hi Martin,

Thank you i will have a look at that, i know i can do a lot more with Templot going forward. It is a A-4.5 its for a coal siding based on Blandford Forum that to me looks a very tight curve.

 

I dont have permmision to post this picture and i dont know who to credit it to, i hope i am not breaking any rules posting it but that is what i am trying to achieve.

Paul.

 

[martin_wynne]

11 hours ago, down the sdjr said:

its for a coal siding based on Blandford Forum that to me looks a very tight curve.

 

 

 

 

Hi Paul,

 

Thanks for the pic. It needs a curviform V-crossing for such a sharp divergence. More about that in this video:

 

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=pu2F-wveux5-EWGYuqPd3g2

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

On 29/08/2020 at 16:19, down the sdjr said:

Hi Hayfield,

Built my 2nd ever point, 1st with a Templot print out, made mistakes but getting better i hope. Managed to do the soldering on this one, i needed a lesson in tinning the soldering iron tip, so much better now. I also filed the stock rails for the switch blades.

It is a 00 BF 1.25mm common crossing from C&L, plan to make the next couple in 00 SF 1mm.

I am using thin sleepers as i bought a job lot off ebay, i am using poly cement to glue sleepers to the paper, they seem to hold well and do not curve with the Liquid glue for the chairs.

Onwards and upwards.

Paul.

 

 

 

 

Paul

 

Looking good, I think you have to tin the tip on the first time of using, I try and not file the stock rails unless they are either FB rail where I level up the foot with the head, or the prototype requires it. As for the solvent, I have often thought a weaker solvent may be kinder on the timbers. The Exactoscale timbers are cheap enough £2 , a very large sprue enough for at least 3 turnouts. Modern flexi track is now using thick timbers.

 

Keep up the good work, curviform Vees next?