Hayfields turnout workbench

[Hayfield2]

Gordon

 

Good evening, are you going to build a small module for the challenge ?

 

Trouble is it wont let me change my Hayfield password. Anyway just about to use the gauges you sent. Never realised that flatbotom rail had a narrower head size than bullhead rail. Learn new things every day, or as in my case re-learn what I learnt the previous day.

[martin_wynne]

Never realised that flatbotom rail had a narrower head size than bullhead rail.

 

Hi John,

 

It doesn't.

 

In the UK the head width for virtually all bullhead and flat-bottom rail for standard-gauge is the same -- 2.75"  = 0.92mm in 4mm/ft scale. 

 

Narrow-gauge, light railways and the latest heavy rail flat-bottom may differ, but you are not modelling those.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Donw]

Hi John,

 

It doesn't.

 

In the UK the head width for virtually all bullhead and flat-bottom rail for standard-gauge is the same -- 2.75"  = 0.92mm in 4mm/ft scale. 

 

Narrow-gauge, light railways and the latest heavy rail flat-bottom may differ, but you are not modelling those.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

That may be true full size but not in model size it depends on which rail you use Code 70 has a smaller head than code 100  and  Peco code 83 rail has a significantly smaller head I believe comparatively speaking.

Don

[Hayfield2]

Hi John,

 

It doesn't.

 

In the UK the head width for virtually all bullhead and flat-bottom rail for standard-gauge is the same -- 2.75"  = 0.92mm in 4mm/ft scale. 

 

Narrow-gauge, light railways and the latest heavy rail flat-bottom may differ, but you are not modelling those.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

 

Martin

 

My original 00sf gauges from Polybear are fine for both code 75 bullhead and code 82 flatbottom. I have a set of DCC concepts 00sf gauges which states is for code 75 but for use with flatbottom rail, They fit fine on code 82 flatbottom, but not on code 75 bullhead rail. Code 82 fb measures in at about 0.78 mm and code 75 bh at 0.85 mm  !!

 

I was given the gauges by a well known contributor on here who uses bullhead rail, and it was not fitting his rail either

[martin_wynne]

and code 75 bh at 0.85 mm  !!

 

Hi John,

 

That may be SMP bullhead rail which is known to be under scale width. Try C&L bullhead.

 

I can only repeat that the correct scale head width for 4mm/ft scale is 0.92mm -- I suspect the narrower FB rails are intended for H0 scale (3.5mm/ft).

 

The width variations hardly matter visually, but are important for correct fitting of the gauge tools and accurately positioned check rails. If possible use the wider C&L rail and 00-SF gauges for check rails, even if you use the narrower rail elsewhere.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Hayfield2]

Martin

 

Both rails came from C&L, bullhead is the HiNi and the Flatbottom was bought less than a year ago.

 

I hear what you say but the DCC Concepts packing does state that its for flatbottom rail and it fits it. Strange !!

 

The one worry I have is that the rail may be held vertical and I don't know if the C&L ST chairs have the cant or not, if they do then I am in trouble as the gauge will narrow when the chairs relax back into position

[Hayfield2]

I have had a look at the photos I took at Lostwithiel station, not too much help as they are using a different rail clip and have slide chairs completely different to what is available

 

 

Anyway a start with the common crossing in place and the first stock rail laid

 

 

Here are 2 photos of a main line turnout, not much use as fay bigger than I am building, but gives a flavour of what is required

 

[trisonic]

Another interesting supplier of modern UK track components: http://colincraig4mm.co.uk/#/track/4532596088

 

I can’t remember whether Colin has been mentioned or not.....

 

Best, Pete.

[Hayfield2]

Peter

 

I have not mentioned Colin, he is a lovely chap and I have discussed his track parts with him and seen him at a couple of shows. Also have spoken with someone who is using his parts to build a layout. But what I have seen with Colin's kits is the turnouts are very much bigger than most of us use and are of etched parts which are soldered to copperclad sleepers. In some ways they are very much more detailed providing that the style of parts matches the era/location/region you are modelling

 

What I am doing is a bit of a half way house between what is provided by the RTR brigade and going full rivet counting, it is a compromise but far better than what's available out of a box. And of course can be built to fit the location.

 

How many GWR layouts have 2 bolt chairs on their sleepers, not many. Or LSWR where the 2 bolts on a 3 bolt chair are on the outside of the rail, not inside. In the end we have to use what's available to us and in a format we are happy to use

 

This is a terrific resource for the modern era modeller http://www.mmrs.co.uk/technical/track.html from  THE MANCHESTER MODEL RAILWAY SOCIETY

[Hayfield2]

Turnout is progressing, both switch blades now made and the second is being fitted with the second check rail to follow

 

 

In some ways the common crossing was a bit more fiddly than I expected, but the switch rails were not as bad as I feared

 

 

[trisonic]

Did you file / sand down the foot of the FB rail first before final shaping ?

 

Best, Pete.

[Hayfield2]

Prte

 

On the stock rails yes where the switch rail would touch. The blades, one side filed flat (which touches the stock rail) the other side I only filed the head and web leaving the foot as it is

[hayfield]

I thought I would do a quick update. The flatbottom turnout is finished (though it will have a different tiebar if I use it

 

 

Only a couple of non ST base plates used, namely the slide and crossing nose chairs

 

 

Next up is a trailing crossover in EM using Exactoscale parts, the common crossings (not in the photo) have been built, now down to the timbers. The Timbers are the thinner Exactoscale laser cut ones

 

 

I needed a new timber cutting guide, this one is a bit bigger as I wanted to use a clamp with a stop plate to speed up construction. A scrap piece of ply is the base, with an off cut of 9 x 9 mm strip wood and an off cut piece of metal (could be wood or plasticard).

 

Simple in operation as sleepers increase/decrease in 2 mm lengths, measure the length, clamp the stopper, then cut. I cut in pairs and as I was doing a crossover sleepers were needed in either 2's, 4's, 5's, 8's and 10's. Cutting was much quicker as measure once and cut in pairs. Why have I been doing it the hard way for so long ? And all the same length. I used a simple Exacto razor saw with a fine blade

Edited September 4, 2014 by hayfield

[hayfield]

Progress on the facing crossover

 

 

At this moment its concentrating on the stock rails, 3rd one about to go into place, 4th cut awaiting for dummy fishplates. Now need to complete the special common crossing and switch rail chairs

[hayfield]

The facing crossover nearly finished

 

 

Just the tiebars, wire jumpers from stock to switch rails and the final 8 slide chairs

 

 

A closer view and all the items to cut the sleepers, the cutting jig is simplicity in its self, a scrap of ply, strip of beading with a straight cut across, stop plate and clamp. As sleepers increase/decrease in 2 mm increments. Just measure the length, clamp the stop plate and I cut in pairs. So quick especially when doing a crossover or multiple turnouts. Will cut down the time even with a single turnout. Razor saw for ply. I think for copperclad something a bit more substantial is required if a hacksaw is used, and I wont be using a razor saw as they blunt so quickly

 

 

Results of the cutting, one side fitted the other waiting for the straight edge to be taped in place

Edited September 15, 2014 by hayfield

[hayfield]

A trailing crossover nearing completion

 

 

A couple of chair details to be fitted on both common crossings, the additional slide chairs also need fitting. Then tiebars, bonding wires and final 4 slide chairs

 

A couple of right handed turnouts next in a small formation

 

 

[hayfield]

Next complex on the go

 

 

3 turnouts in line, the top rail which runs the full length is just under a meter, just need to accurately mark and cut the cosmetic rail breaks and sets. One left hand and 2 Y's which both favour right hand turns

 

 

Awful photo, sorry getting use to the difference between a Samsung and Iphone, Vee's first soldered up using a simple home made jig (sorry for boring those who have seen it before

 

 

The 3 common crossings in different stages of construction. Right hand crossing with the 3 thin (0.5 mm) strips of copperclad and first wing rail attached. Centre one with the second wing rail soldered to it. Third one nearly finished, copperclad strips cut and filed back to rail sides and wing rails filed to length after the crossing nose

 

 

Tracing paper taped over the plan with rail breaks, bridge, check and slide chairs positions marked out

Edited September 23, 2014 by hayfield

[hayfield]

I cut all the sleepers last night, the good thing about building complexes and that the timbers are standard lengths and all increase by 2 mm a time is that with a jig you can cut several the same length very quickly

 

 

These two shots just show again the simplicity of the jig, which is made from bits that you would normally throw out

 

 

 

This shows how thin I cut the double sided tape strips, half the width of a sleeper

 

 

Showing the position of the tapes at each end of the sleepers. The tape only has to be strong enough to stop the sleepers moving, not sticjing them down very securely

 

 

This shows the timbers in place but not stuck down whilst cutting them to size

 

 

The right hand turnout is straight, so I use a straight edge to keep them in line, the other 2 being curved are laid by eye over the template

 

I have no idea why for so long I cut them with a scalpel by eye individually over the plan 

[hayfield]

Work and building my workroom getting in the way of my modelling, still the latest formation looking a bit tidier

 

 

I fitted the three common crossings first, then the long continuous stock rail, labour of love as had to cut 5 slits in the rails to represent rail joins then soldered etched fishplates in between sliding on the plastic chairs. This was then fitted using gauges. The other 3 stock rails were a bit more straight forward.

 

 

The common crossing special chairs have been fitted and now on to making the switch rails and fitting them.

[Jaggzuk]

Hi Hayfield

 

I have been following your topic for quite some while and have found it really informative, so I hope you do not mind a question.

 

I am at the very early stage of planning a layout and want to decide now on how I am going to create all the turnouts, I need, some 20 in total.  No fancy complexes, just simple straight turnouts, two double track crossing junctions with the rest being single facing and trailing points.

 

I could very easily create the whole track plan using Peco Code 75 Streamline products (and C&L UK prototype flexi track), but I know that hand built turnouts will look right.  

 

I had a try at building a couple of C&L B6 turnouts a while back and did not find it too difficult am was very happy with the results.  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/469/entry-4973-the-permanent-way-construction-begins/.  But to also be honest I wonder if the difference between them and a sample Peco Large radius Electrofrog point is bearable (sleeper spacing, width and hinged switch blades being the big differences).  I know this is a separate debate ;-)

 

The bag that the B6 kit came in was priced at £27, where as now the same kit from, C&L will set me back £48!!  I guess time and inflation have moved on.  But the concept of buying a further 18 kits at that price puts me off the whole idea of hand built track, I just cannot justify it.

 

So to my question, obviously the 'kit' I bought comes with all the bit to build a turnout, yet I do not need to buy it that way again?  Can you offer me some help on how much it typically costs to make a turnout, buying things the cheapest way; bulk components.  I mean, as each kit comes with stuff I do not need to buy again, like the plan, gauges etc. I assume the unit cost should be cheaper?

 

Seeing that I can get a Peco code 75 Electrofrog point from C&L for just over £10, I need a very good reason to justify spending some £670 more just for hand built track; plus my build time.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

paul

Edited September 28, 2014 by Jaggzuk

[Donw]

If you look through this thread you will see John cutting sleepers, filing the switch blades from rail, fabricating the crossings (the Vs or frogs to some) the only bits you have to buy are the gauges (once) the rail, chairs and solvent. That keeps the costs down.

Don

[hayfield]

Paul

 

Thanks for the question, the size of Peco flexi track sleepers in 4 mm scale is about right and the spacing of the sleepers can be adjusted. Its fine if you either want flatbottom rail with clips, or are willing to put up with it. C&L and Exactoscale track is bullhead with chairs, its about double the price of discounted Peco, but it has chairs and bullhead rail.

 

Un-like stock you just have to buy it once so the extra spend to my mind is well worth it when folk are wiling to pay out over a hundred pounds for a super detailed loco.

 

When you are talking about turnouts the cost difference with a Peco ready to lay point against a hand built turnout components is quite close, but you have to put in the effort to build it. A fully chaired turnout in components is about £12 to £14 in parts, what has surprised me is that using the special chairs is not that much more in cost than using standard chairs which have been chopped up. The result is far superior.

 

But coming back to the Peco point, you are looking at a HO scale turnout with flatbottom rail, clips not chairs and non-prototypical appearance.

 

The biggest cost in a C&L turnout kit is the common crossing and switch blades, the former being more that the cost of component parts. Master the build process, then its quite cheap. Added to that , with either the C&L plans or Templot building templates (plans) the end product is far superior.

 

I will take some close ups of the formation I am currently building and upload then, they are so different to a RTR turnout. That also applies to a turnout built with flatbottom rail, and I am only talking about straight forward plain turnouts, start to build them with a gentle curve and or in formation then its a different ball game (just as easy to build) track to either copy a location or to fit a space.

 

For fiddle yards then its about £5 in component parts, far cheaper than one out of a box

Edited September 28, 2014 by hayfield

[hayfield]

If anyone is at Folkstone please come up and say hello, should be next to the small C&L stand. If anyone is stuck with something then please bring it along

[hayfield]

Paul

 

 Here are some pictures (sorry for the quality) which may explain why build your own

 

 

Here we have the above and side views of the switch section, top rails with the centre block part of the chair, lower part yet to be fitted. I have included the sprue's (enough for one right and one left turnout for either A, B or C switches) one centre part of the block chair is on the white piece of paper

 

 

Tiebar and final 2 slide chairs yet to be fitted

 

 

Here are the common crossing and check rail chairs fitted, again from above and side on. Now if manufacturers left so many parts off a new loco as the RTR track makers do there would be uproar

 

 

These are B 8 turnouts, you can make smaller ones

 

 

You have the ability to make flowing track, the first turnout is straight, the other 2 are asymmetrical Y's. The track fits the plan rather than the plan fits the point geometry. Now I am not having a pop at the average modeller, there is nothing wrong in making a layout out of the box so to speak. I can understand that many will struggle kit building, let alone partial scratch building and model making rather than modelling is not for all. But I do have a rye smile at a piece of stock which has been skilfully kitbashed/kitbuilt/ \rtr modified (whatever you call it) to a very high standard and it sits on a length of H0 track of the wrong era

Edited September 29, 2014 by hayfield

[Jaggzuk]

Thanks Hayfield for the advice/info and photos.  Got me really thinking now, I know what my mind says, but my wallet says differently.  So a bit more research on what the unit price will be but I hope I know what the answer will be, I need proper looking track!!

 

Thanks  Paul