Sloppy assembly of RTR Locos

[oreamnos]

I'm not looking to start a thread where people bash this or that and I would welcome the moderators locking this thread if it morphs into that.

 

I've read (on this board somewhere) that returns of RTR loco models for defects are around 2%-4% IIRC. If true, that's pretty good. What I'm wondering about are those defects in assembly that we notice in the new models we buy that we as modeller's "live with" and decide not to return because we:

1.) think we can fix them ourselves (because we have spares or can fabricate a part),

2.) will hide the problem with weathering

3.) got a really good bargain on the (new) model

4.) think the PITA factor of returning it is too high

5.) already have several other examples of the same loco and decide to keep the new one for spares

6.) know these models are never 100% perfect

6.) etc. You get the idea.

 

I'm just thinking that a compiled list of these kinds of niggles might be useful for the manufactures see so they can perhaps improve their assembly processes and education of their workers. I know their representatives read this board.

 

What prompts me to start this thread are the following Farish locos, bought new and received yesterday from an online shop in the UK, which were on special offer. Since I'm in the US and don't pay VAT, each cost me less than 40 quid. Both models are in the current Farish 2012-13 catalogue and are not new old stock, and neither was advertised as having defects:

a.) Farish Class 40 in BR Green - noticable scratch in the plastic on one side of the body which someone at the factory then had literally tried to buff out judging by the the shiny, glossy sheen to the paintwork surrounding the scratch (which isn't present elsewhere on the model). The spot of glossy sheen to the polished paintwork is actually more noticable than the scratch itself!

b.) Farish Class 45 in BR Green - 1.) a funny discoloured spot in the paintwork on the light grey roof which again, someone at the facory tried to buff out (which again made it more noticable); 2.) excessive lint stuck in the grey paint on the roof; 3.) almost all 8 of the wires representing the sanding tubes on the bottom of the bogies were bent incorrectly so they interfered with the wheels or the track; 4.) one of the two little prongs on one of the bogie gear assemblies (the little prongs slot into two little holes in the bogie frame by the coupler opening to hold the front of the bogie frame to the bogie gear assembly) had been visibly trimmed off with a flash removing tool by someone at the factory; 5.) there was a plastic shaving in one of the axle gears which caused one bogie to sound like it had a spit gear.

 

Returning these models was out of the question as when I bought them I knew I was buying the last ones in the shop's stock and in any case return shipping back to the UK from the US is both expensive and a PITA. As such, I will soon give a coat of clear satin varnish to the Class 40 which ought to fix the shiny paint problem. The Class 45 required disassembly and replacement of the bogie gear assembly with a spare one I had, re-bending of the sanding tube wires, and an examination and cleaning of the axle gears to remove the plastic shaving. The discoloured spot in the roof paint I will just live with.

 

Both the Class 40 and Class 45 are fine models and well designed. However, the two examples above suffered from careless assembly and misinformed attempts by someone at the factory to repair the paintwork.

 

Matt

[brossard]

Living in Canada, I share your concern. The damage you describe seems to me to be unrepairable so sending back would be something I might contemplate. Having said that, I have never sent anything back. TBH it is rare to have a problem (am I just lucky?). I have had some models that have arrived with parts broken off, due, I suspect to poor packaging at the shop (which shop I will no longer use due to their NOT taking VAT off). I have enough knowledge, experience and bits to undertake most repairs myself. I think I might draw the line at trying to replicate a factory finish (unless it's simple, like black). I suppose I am in cat 1) but with bits of the others as well.

 

John

[Roy L S]

I'm not looking to start a thread where people bash this or that and I would welcome the moderators locking this thread if it morphs into that.

 

I've read (on this board somewhere) that returns of RTR loco models for defects are around 2%-4% IIRC. If true, that's pretty good. What I'm wondering about are those defects in assembly that we notice in the new models we buy that we as modeller's "live with" and decide not to return because we:

1.) think we can fix them ourselves (because we have spares or can fabricate a part),

2.) will hide the problem with weathering

3.) got a really good bargain on the (new) model

4.) think the PITA factor of returning it is too high

5.) already have several other examples of the same loco and decide to keep the new one for spares

6.) know these models are never 100% perfect

6.) etc. You get the idea.

 

I'm just thinking that a compiled list of these kinds of niggles might be useful for the manufactures see so they can perhaps improve their assembly processes and education of their workers. I know their representatives read this board.

 

What prompts me to start this thread are the following Farish locos, bought new and received yesterday from an online shop in the UK, which were on special offer. Since I'm in the US and don't pay VAT, each cost me less than 40 quid. Both models are in the current Farish 2012-13 catalogue and are not new old stock, and neither was advertised as having defects:

a.) Farish Class 40 in BR Green - noticable scratch in the plastic on one side of the body which someone at the factory then had literally tried to buff out judging by the the shiny, glossy sheen to the paintwork surrounding the scratch (which isn't present elsewhere on the model). The spot of glossy sheen to the polished paintwork is actually more noticable than the scratch itself!

b.) Farish Class 45 in BR Green - 1.) a funny discoloured spot in the paintwork on the light grey roof which again, someone at the facory tried to buff out (which again made it more noticable); 2.) excessive lint stuck in the grey paint on the roof; 3.) almost all 8 of the wires representing the sanding tubes on the bottom of the bogies were bent incorrectly so they interfered with the wheels or the track; 4.) one of the two little prongs on one of the bogie gear assemblies (the little prongs slot into two little holes in the bogie frame by the coupler opening to hold the front of the bogie frame to the bogie gear assembly) had been visibly trimmed off with a flash removing tool by someone at the factory; 5.) there was a plastic shaving in one of the axle gears which caused one bogie to sound like it had a spit gear.

 

Returning these models was out of the question as when I bought them I knew I was buying the last ones in the shop's stock and in any case return shipping back to the UK from the US is both expensive and a PITA. As such, I will soon give a coat of clear satin varnish to the Class 40 which ought to fix the shiny paint problem. The Class 45 required disassembly and replacement of the bogie gear assembly with a spare one I had, re-bending of the sanding tube wires, and an examination and cleaning of the axle gears to remove the plastic shaving. The discoloured spot in the roof paint I will just live with.

 

Both the Class 40 and Class 45 are fine models and well designed. However, the two examples above suffered from careless assembly and misinformed attempts by someone at the factory to repair the paintwork.

 

Matt

 

Hi Matt

 

I do not disagree with the sentiment of what you are trying to do, but might it create the wrong impression by putting this under the Farish subject heading when there are surely issues with all manufacturers to a greater or lesser extent?

 

I do wonder if there might be somewhere else on the Forum more appropriate that this thread might be put?

 

Regards

 

Roy

[NZmodeller]

Hi Everyone,

 

I agree this isn't specific to Farish, or even the model railway trade. As another living outside the UK we do not have the luxury of selecting a model and having it tested in the store or even even perhaps picking one from the shelf that looks better. Those items with minor or unidentified defects are not necessarily returned to the manufacturer and may be subsequently sold online. It's therefore likely that online orders and particularly discounted items will have a higher percentage of faults.

 

Peter

[oreamnos]

Roy and Peter, yes I agree this isn't specific to Farish and if any moderator wishes to so move this thread to a different area that would be fine with me. I only started typing my post in the Farish section because the locos I knew I was going to write about were Farish products. I did not mean to create an impression that the issue is confined only to Farish locos, or even to N gauge.

 

Matt

[Karhedron]

The issues you describe are almost certainly not unique to Farish (although interestingly, the only loco I have ever rejected on the basis of damaged paintwork was a Farish warship). I think this is a symptom of outsourcing production in order to cut costs. We demand products at a pricepoint. In order to meet that, corners inevitably get cut along the way and QC is often the first thing to suffer.

 

I understand your intentions in starting this thread but I am not sure how much good it will do. Most RTR models are produced in factories that are not owned by Hornby/Dapol/Bachmann etc. They are just contractors who are given the CADs and the specs and build the models without a real understanding of what they are making. Next week they will be making something else for someone else so there is not much incentive to try and iron out niggles.

 

The best approach I have seen seems to be from Dapol who are slowly trying to evolve their designs to engineer out points of failure. One common fault on steam locos is a loss of quartering. Dapols steamers from the Brit onwards use square axels meaning that the wheels cannot slip on their axels and come out of quartering.

 

But defects to tghe finish like those you describe are hard to design out. Factory workers are human beings like the rest of us and a loco made 10 minutes before closing time is always going to be at risk of being finished hastily.

[PLD]

The more I read of some modellers' experiences, the more I seem to be extremely lucky with my N-gauge purchases...

 

There is a recurring issue with Farish locos arriving with the pickups out of shape but I think that is a materials issue rather than inconsistent/shoddy assembly...

 

Having said that, my one and only N-gauge rolling stock reject for a paintwork fault was also a Farish item; in my case a Stanier coach that was completely lacking numbering/lining/lettering on one side (of course it was that side down in the box!) but that compares well with other areas for example 4mm diecasts I reject around 1 in 4 for paint overspray or poorly printed detail...

[Chris Higgs]

I bought a Farish Class 14. When it arrived it ran very jerkily with the motor heating rapidly. I noticed that the front axle seemed very tight. I found that slight loosening of the front fixing screw solved it and now it runs much better.

 

So not sloppy assembly but sloppy design as most people would expect to tighten all screws right down, not a little bit loose. But it was an easy fix to an issue that would otherwise have seen the model returned.

 

Chris

[rodshaw]

During my brief flirtation with N gauge last year, the only brand new loco I bought was a Farish Class 04. It ran erratically and a squint underneath revealed that two of the four pickups weren't making contact with the wheels. Rather than mess about with something so small I returned it to the supplier and got a full refund. The pickups looked very flimsy. Having said that, a bit of quality control should have sorted it.

[TheSignalEngineer]

My T9 used to run erratically when going forwards on some right hand bends. When I was dismantling the tender to correct the guard iron fault I checked it out and found that the pick-ups were coming clear of the wheels when going round tighter radii curves. Tweezers out ... one minute ... sorted.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... What I'm wondering about are those defects in assembly that we notice in the new models we buy that we as modeller's "live with" and decide not to return because we:

1.) think know we can fix them ourselves (because we have spares or can fabricate a part) ,..

6.) know these models are never 100% perfect

I'm just thinking that a compiled list of these kinds of niggles might be useful for the manufactures see so they can perhaps improve their assembly processes and education of their workers. I know their representatives read this board...

From past experience I look on OO RTR models as 'assembled kits' per 1 and 6 above. Typically the parts are well enough designed to make a good model, but there may be deficiencies in assembly: which I can fix in the process of adding a decoder and generally getting the model set up for reliable operation on the layout. I wouldn't expect the situation to any different in N gauge.

 

Pretty sure the manufacturers already have a decent handle on assembly defects. The reason I have for saying this is that the more recent introductions in OO are definitely better in assembly terms; which implies that 'someone' is investing effort in design and assembly to make this happen. I still give models the once over, but increasingly find that they are well assembled in all respects. There probably isn't the resource in the manufacturing operation to revisit earlier introductions and pull these up to the same standard unfortunately.

 

But all the above relates to mechanism, rather than finish. Perhaps I am just lucky, but external finish problems = 0 in circa a thousand OO RTR purchases (that quantity sounds alarming, but this is the consequence of wanting full size main line trains) over the past dozen years, mostly Bachmann, some Hornby, a little Heljan. That's probably 50/50 over the counter and mail order purchases. What that suggests to me is that the Chinese factories are able to do consistently well on external finish. Defects such as you have received are very clearly grounds for return. Whether they are in any way down to the manufacturer's operation is open to question...

[grahame]

Sometimes I wonder just how much prefection we can expect in such an inperfect world.

 

G.

[colbard]

Sometimes I wonder just how much prefection we can expect in such an inperfect world.

 

G.

 

I don't think one can expect any 'prefection' in an imperfect or otherwise world.

 

 

best colbard

[Physicsman]

I don't think one can expect any 'prefection' in an imperfect or otherwise world.

 

 

best colbard

 

Bearing in mind the job of the old PREfects in some of our schools, maybe a bit of PREfection could offer us some PROTection from dodgy models and hence increase the percentage PERFection of what we buy. Ummm....

 

Jeff

[rope runner]

1. Having this in the Farish sub-section is unfair on the supplier

2. in before kits vs. rtr argument

 

Paul A.

[46444]

I agree with Paul on this one and in all fairness Matt OP has stated that it may be appropriate to move this topic to another area.

 

Personally, I don't think it should just be in the Farish section either.

 

My experience of Farish locos and rolling stock has always been excellent and I know from my OO scale modelling the support from Bachmann is first class.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[Elvinley]

I generally find Farish locos are pretty reliable and have a good percentage of good running and well finished locos and stock when purchased new. More recently I have had issues with a couple of locos which weren't up to scratch. A Jubilee had no pickups operating on the loco. This was bought from a shop but I suspect it was a return / display model. A Standard 5 purchased a few days ago has a wobble, bad pickup and damaged tender ladder.

 

On the other hand, an 08 recently purchased is a perfect runner and a WD is nigh on perfect. The pulling power of these locos varies (mine happily pulls about 25 wagons) and my loco shorts out on one point, but generally is a great runner.

 

I have had some issues with recent Dapol purchases which ended up being returned to the seller.

[Seanem44]

I sent a B1 back to Bachmann about a month ago. The motion locked up. I had it for over A year and a half, but it had only an hour of run time. I had to send an A1 back to the dealer who replaced it as it jerked when it ran, did not run smooth. To be fair to Farish, I only have two Dapol steamers, both of which run fine, in comparison to the 8 or so Farish I have.

 

My frustration is that living in the states it's a pain to go through shipping things back for repair and replacement, both in time and in postage.

 

I also understand that when dealing with something as small as N gauge, they are never going to be perfect. I'm surprised something that small can run as well as it does, and be detailed as wonderfully as it is. In addition, I find they handle the overseas transit much better than OO (when I used to "collect" them) locomotives.

 

I think Farish has made leaps and bounds since the first of their steam engines I used to own, late 90's and early 2000's. I can put up with a few issues here and there for a product that is far superior to anything in the past.

 

On top of that, these items are made in China. Not knocking Chinese labor, as it makes the prices possible, but when you are mass producing items, quality control is much harder to obtain than if they were made back in the UK (or similarily USA).

 

I think the legitmate first step in the QC process should start with the stores. Though it might be a burden, I really do think they should test each engine as they come in. At least for overseas and mail orders. This will do two things. First, it will save them of having to deal with returns. Secondly, it will make the purchaser happy and build a better reputation. I never hold the dealer accountable, and the two I use (probably the two largest in the UK) are always excellent in the return process. I just hate being burden as well.

[Les1952]

To try to be fair to ALL manufacturers, we have had QC issues with models of ALL makes for as long as I've been buying my own trains (in my case now 40-odd years).

 

Products of Poole and Margate weren't perfectly made- look back at class 90 with the bogies sticking out beyond the body, or wobbly wheels on early Prairies, and the amazingly bad mechanism in the J69 for Farish examples, X04 and XT60 motors with the magnets in back-to-front for Margate examples, and my friend had a very spectacular failure on a Hornby-Dublo Golden Fleece even further back, so even Binns Road wasn't immune from QC issues.

 

It isn't just Farish, and it isn't just Dapol, despite what some would have us believe.

 

Anything that is less than 100% perfectly tight and packaged with some spring in its housing can't help but be affected by several thousand miles of pummelling from ship engines (or worse, being kicked about in loading/unloading once off the pallet). Testing EVERY loco for wobbly wheels (5MT) or pinched motion (tender drives) or misaligned slide bars (A4/A3) just isn't going to happen at Barwell or Chirk- it costs too much to unpack, test and re-pack every loco. In any case testing every loco at Poole, Binns Rd and Margate didn't find all the QC issues.

 

Is it fair to put this discussion under Farish- not really. Having had what I consider inadequately designed or assembled products from (in no particular order) Farish, Dapol, Hornby, Bachmann (OO and N-Sscale), Atlas, Mehanotechnica, Kato, Fleischmann, Minitrix, Arnold, Peco, Airfix, and probably others as well I think this thread could just as well sit anywhere.

 

All the very best

Les

 

How do I get so many- since 1970 I have built models in TT, N-gauge, OO, HO German, N-gauge, OO finescale, HO German again, OO trams, HO US, N US, N German, N US DCC, N-gauge, OO again and currently UK and German N.

[Seanem44]

Les, I think we all are in agreement.

 

Issues can be found with any and every model and company. One-offs will always occur. It is not fair to Bachmann to have this link here on that point of fact. Even Kato, which has probably been one of the best runners I have ever purchased is constanly plagued by livery errors. Especially in their CSX engines for some reason. Strange.

[GreenDiesel]

The biggest problem I had in this area was when I purchased a Hornby Railroad Evening Star in 2008. The chassis and wheels of its tender were not inserted correctly into its body -- the tender's frame was slightly disconnected from the tender body. I bought this from a retailer in Canada (Model Railway Imports) and its owner quickly gave me excellent advice in correcting this. IIRC, I think some folks on rmweb offered feedback as well. Another problem was that some or most of the tender's wheels would not turn smoothly -- they actually squealed as the loco practically dragged it around the track.

 

In the end, it was fairly easy to repair this and, while I was at it, I added a few other improvements as well. That is, I added extra weight to the tender and thoroughly lubricating its wheels, which enabled the wheels to turn smoothly. Since then, I haven't had any problems.

 

Rob

[oreamnos]

Since my OP in June, I have purchased 3 more locos: 1.) Farish B1, 2.) Farish Warship, 3.) Dapol Hymek. Two (plus 1 - see below) had to be returned.

 

1.) Farish B1 (Oliver Bury) - Other than an very slightly bent handrail on the smokebox (common, and an easy fix), it's a lovely loco that runs well.

2.) Farish Warship (Druid, maroon) - one set of louvres on one side were either incompletely moulded or were deeply gouged and damaged by something sharp and hot - I suspect the latter is more likely. They were quite spoilt although the loco ran fine. It was returned to the shop (from overseas) for exchange. Its repacement was cosmetically fine but would not run and was completely dead on track. I removed the body, wiggled the DC blanking plug, and it ran OK. Fairly loud gear noise in one direction, but other than that generally smooth running.

3.) Dapol Hymek (green) - paint finish was awful; on one side, while the paint was a uniform colour it had one sheen above the glazed windows and a much more matte sheen below them. Also, the louvres in the radiator grill on one side were (like the Warship) incompletely moulded. It was fairly clear the mould was defective, as if the tools were wearing out. It ran OK on testing but it was returned. Its replacement's paint was fine but it had the same problem with the louvres (definitely the tooling is wearing out) and the perspex of one of the headcodes was cracked right through, so the replacement will be returned - for a refund this time. This is will be a total 4 Dapol Hymeks I've received (I bought and had to return 2 defective Kernow Chromatic Blue special edititions a couple years ago - gears failed to mesh on one and the bogies kept falling out of the chassis in the other) from overseas over three years and all 4 have been defective in some way and sent back.

 

Matt

[Elvinley]

That would be frustrating for anyone, but having to return them oversees is much worse. I feel very sorry for you with this very bad experience.

You must be tempted by all those lovely Atlas, Life-Like and Kato locos readily available in the US I have a few US locos myself and they are generally great quality.

[oreamnos]

That would be frustrating for anyone, but having to return them oversees is much worse. I feel very sorry for you with this very bad experience.

You must be tempted by all those lovely Atlas, Life-Like and Kato locos readily available in the US I have a few US locos myself and they are generally great quality.

 

Oh, I have more than a few US models and they are all generally fantastic. When I switched to British outline 7 years ago I was appalled at what I found - and when I learned most British N scale locos were made by Bachmann I almost stopped before I started! (Until about 10-15 years ago, Bachmann was a laughingstock in US N gauge. The "quality" of its stuff back then was so awful it would make Poole Farish seem like Kato by comparision!). But my first British diesel (bought in Inverness while visiting my in-laws) was a BachFar Class 55 in BR blue and it ran really well. And then I discovered discounters like Hattons and the fact I don't pay VAT...

 

There is a bigger variety of diesel types in a common livery in British outline compared to the USA. That's the attraction of it to me. That and steam engines that are painted in colors other than black. British models have closed the gap with US ones in features, but there has been a cost in terms of assembly quality. Only with the advent of these latest, more accurately scaled, highly detailed, DCC friendly models have I had problems with assembly gaffes. When I think back, my "old" simple BachFar models that I bought when I was first starting in British N were always put together right and I never needed to send one back, and they are all still serving me well.

 

Matt

[Elvinley]

I think when you do get a good one Matt, that some British stuff is almost on a par with Atlas etc. Some examples I can think of are: Farish 24, Farish Warship, Farish shunters, Farish DMUs, Dapol 26 (after many hours of running in). As I say though you have to get a good one and they do vary a lot. It is quite a gamble for you especially.

 

I recently bought a Farish 101 DMU and an 08 which are pretty much up there with the US models in terms of slow, quiet running. Having said that, the very best runner I have at the moment is an Atlas H15. Absolutely incredible loco. It can crawl in an almost imperceptable fashion and generally glides along beautifully.

 

I know what you mean about Bachmann US N gauge! Their G Spectrum stuff had some gems though, like the Shay (the one with the bearings that didn't crumble!) and their HO and On30 Spectrum stuff is pretty decent too from my limited experience. I have/had some Spectrum N steam which is variable in quality.

 

The majority of UK modellers seem happy with what we have so things don't really need to change. The companies seem to think the volume of returns is fine and within acceptable levels and a lot of people will put up with wobbly, jerky runners or will attempt to fix stuff themselves. I think if every loco was returned, no matter how slight the problem things might have to change.