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Sloppy assembly of RTR Locos


oreamnos

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Since my OP in June, I have purchased 3 more locos: 1.) Farish B1, 2.) Farish Warship, 3.) Dapol Hymek. Two (plus 1 - see below) had to be returned.

 

I don't know why it should be Matt, but you and one or two others do seem to have a long streak of exceedingly bad luck with your N Gauge purchases that is at odds with my experience and that of most others, who have few if any complaints. Between us, I and the rest of the N gauge team at the local MR club have had to return a grand total of 1 loco in the last 5 years (estimate around 40 locos in total between us) which was a Farish 3MT with a serious limp (bought at a show, tested on the layout and exchanged by the trader immediately and without any fuss). OK there have been other minor but easily fixable issues (non-pickups etc) but nothing on the scale you report.

 

Some of the cosmetic issues you report are very unusual and are things that would have been picked up by a pre-purchase inspection, either by the buyer in person or the retailer if posting. The one connection appears to be that the 'unluckiest' buyers are overseas so is a rogue retailer deliberately off-loading any sub-standard locos to overseas customers??

 

Are all these purchases from the same retailer? If so, I suggest you try somewhere else in future - it may be worth spending a little more to avoid the hassle and disappointment...

 

Paul

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I think the real crux of the matter is this, we here in the UK are jumping up and down rubbing our hands with glee at the low price highly detailed models (in all scales and Gauges) coming out of China.

but this has come at a cost, Quality control. Probably because the under-paid (often under 18 years old) workers don't know or care as long as they get fed at the end of the week.

We get models that are cheap, but have had no quality control at all.

And lets be honest, those workers making these models won't put a penny back into our economy, they spend their money in shops that are in China.

We wanted to pay the lowest costs, and this is the result.

It is a British/western thing, decades ago it was ok to make say a 40% profit on our work. Today every Brit is looking at 100% profit on their output.

If we made them in the UK at a higher cost, we'd have to save a bit more to pay for the more expensive item, but it would at least have a quality control department.

Are German models still made there, or are they outsourced too? You rarely hear of these amounts of quality control from Germany (or do we?).

 

Not N Gauge but look at the miss-match of front and sides on the Hornby Railroad class 31, would the Margate factory (or Lima's Italian factory) have passed this?

 

you want cheap prices, you get cheap models.

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I think I'd be willing to pay about 10-20% more if models were made in the UK once again. As expressed above, the extra costs will probably be worth it.

 

I marvel at the Hornby Dublo locos -- even the Triang ones -- that were made in Britain 40 to 55 years ago and still run fine today.

 

However, as far as I know, even the North American models are made in China, so those should have some of the same issues. Having said all this, I've bought about 10 new Hornby and Bachmann British 00 models over the past 5-7 years and all of them have been excellent. If there have been any problems (as I noted earlier), they have been minor.

 

Rob

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Some of the cosmetic issues you report are very unusual and are things that would have been picked up by a pre-purchase inspection, either by the buyer in person or the retailer if posting. The one connection appears to be that the 'unluckiest' buyers are overseas so is a rogue retailer deliberately off-loading any sub-standard locos to overseas customers??

 

Are all these purchases from the same retailer? If so, I suggest you try somewhere else in future - it may be worth spending a little more to avoid the hassle and disappointment...

 

Paul

 

No, the purchases are not from the same shop. The models have been purchased from (in no particular order) 1.) Hattons, 2.) Model Railways Direct, 3.) The Signal Box (in Rochester), and as mentioned, 4.) Kernow Model Railway Centre. Also, I just remembered I actually bought a fourth loco since my OP, a Dapol Q1 from 5.) Rails of Sheffield, which I sent back because it was stalling on my insulfrog points and the motor ran worryingly hot. It's replacement doesn't stall, but when it arrived, the mechanical lubricator attached to the motion was completely disconnected from the front driving wheel and I had to refit it. Easy to do, but a little fiddly. It also runs very hot, but having seen two do that perhaps that's just how they are and that's fine.

 

Where I able to inspect the models before purchase, of course I would notice the defects. As for a shops inspecting models before posting, Rails of Sheffield kindly emailed me to state they would test the replacement Q1 before posting it, and yet if they did so they did not notice the blatantly obvious unattached mechanical lubricator. Pehaps it was dislodged in the post but I am skeptical given it required firm pressure to refit it. Kernow MRC (which has been very responsive to me but is not the cheapest shop) also told me they inspected the second Hymek they sent me before posting, but as the loose bogies literally dropped out of the chassis onto my desck the instant I removed the loco from the packing foam, I am again skeptical.

 

I admit I am fussy about my models, but like others I can fix many appearance and mechincal problems myself and I certainly do because I know such repairs will meet my standards. But perhaps I am just getting to an age in life where I feel I should not have to? I'd guess I reject 25%-33% of the models I receive, but that means of course that most of the models I receive are just fine and lovely things (like that Farish B1) - and that should be stressed.

 

I love the latest, detailed models and think they look fantastic but as they get more detailed, I acknowledge they become trickier to assemble. When they have no faults they run very well. That all said, I for one would be happy to pay a premium for locos assembled in the UK if meant better quality control. Given the amount of money I spend on return postage costs I'd certainly prefer that money to go to the price of a quality model and supporting UK workers.

 

Matt

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You know, I should add that I once even had to return a T9 loco back to Colin Heard at Union Mills on the Isle of Man. The loco ran fine (as all UM models do) but one of the wheel splashers had been shaved flat on top (according to Colin, this would have happened when the casting was being cleared of flash by hand) and the mistake had not been noticed. He sent me a nice note along with the replacement loco where he was quite apologetic and he sincererly appreciated I had brought the error to his attention. He really handled the situation extremely well.

 

This was just one fault out of the 10 UM models I've purchased but it does goes to show that even the best quality models made in the UK can still have have a "bad one" slip through QC.

 

Matt

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I think I'd be willing to pay about 10-20% more if models were made in the UK once again. As expressed above, the extra costs will probably be worth it.

Sadly it is not a matter of 10-20%. You would be looking at roughly double the price for a "made in britain" badge. This is due to the higher wages paid in the UK and also due to the higher cost of facilities. Bottom line is it costs more to build and run a factory in the UK than in China and that gets passed on in production costs.

 

I marvel at the Hornby Dublo locos -- even the Triang ones -- that were made in Britain 40 to 55 years ago and still run fine today.

That is not entirely a fair comparison. Hornby/Triang locos still running today are the survivors of darwinian selection. They probably represent the best assembled 10% of the original runs, the rest have long since fallen apart and been discarded or consigned to dusty lofts.

 

By your reasoning, we made better cars 50 years ago because most 50-year old cars you see today are good runners. ;)

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Sadly it is not a matter of 10-20%. You would be looking at roughly double the price for a "made in britain" badge. This is due to the higher wages paid in the UK and also due to the higher cost of facilities. Bottom line is it costs more to build and run a factory in the UK than in China and that gets passed on in production costs.

 

While I fully appreciate it is an apples to oranges comparison in terms of level of detail and sophistication - but not quality - Union Mills models (made in the UK, though I believe the electric motors are imported) are actually cheaper than the latest made-in-China offerings from Dapol and Farish.

 

Yes yes, I know Colin keeps costs down because he makes so few models he is VAT exempt, he has few (if any) employees, and he only sells direct to individuals so there is no retail markup (which is considerable even at discount shops). His models are also fairly simple. That said, his company is proof that quality UK manufacture can be done and as such I have to wonder if it could be for more complicated and detailed models without the 100% premium you cite. I also have to wonder if further advances in 3D printing technology might be what triggers some entrepreneur to have a go. Sure, this isn't likely, but never say never.

 

Matt

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Colin has perfected a tender drive and manufactures prototypes that can make use of that mechanism. This keeps the R&D costs down but also restricts what he produces. I don't think he will be producing any GWR models in the near future. Also he mostly offers very plain liveries which again keeps costs down.

 

I am not trying to detract from UM in any way, I am just pointing out that it is a very different business model and a very different product.

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Sadly it is not a matter of 10-20%. You would be looking at roughly double the price for a "made in britain" badge. This is due to the higher wages paid in the UK and also due to the higher cost of facilities. Bottom line is it costs more to build and run a factory in the UK than in China and that gets passed on in production costs.

 

 

That is not entirely a fair comparison. Hornby/Triang locos still running today are the survivors of darwinian selection. They probably represent the best assembled 10% of the original runs, the rest have long since fallen apart and been discarded or consigned to dusty lofts.

 

By your reasoning, we made better cars 50 years ago because most 50-year old cars you see today are good runners. ;)

 

Thanks -- good points all round. Yes, I suppose we would be looking at much higher than 10-20% but hopefully the increase could be kept to 40-50%?

 

Another good point re comparing old Dublo/Triang locos to 50-year-old cars, etc. I suppose, to make the comparison accurate, you'd have to look at how many Dublo/Triang locos were produced vs.how many are still running today. It seems to me that there are large numbers of Dublo & Triang locos still running, but that's just my impression -- I'm not looking at hard statistics. To be fair, I suppose that many of our present-day Bachmann & Hornby models could still be running in the year 2062 if they're well maintained!!

 

I have another question on this topic though. I only returned to the hobby in 2004 but I believe that the production didn't move to China until 2000. All through the 1980s and '90s, Hornby (& Lima & Bachmann?) products would have been made in GB. So, were the prices of Hornby (and other model manufacturers) out-of-line during that time or were they gradually increasing to the point that Hornby could no longer afford to produce them in GB? Just wondering as my knowledge of Hornby (and other manufacturers) is sketchy of that time period. I've practically become a "fan" of the 1960s/70s model scene as well as today's -- I've kind of overlooked the 1980s/90s period.

 

Just some rambling late-night thoughts & questions!

 

Rob

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I think its probably an underground type of thing. There are likely to be more issues with RTR models than we or the manifacturers will ever learn of and its probably down to the fact that many problems can be sorted with a bit of time and patience with the added bonus of a sense of satisfaction at fixing minor faults and getting the model straight work, rather than go through the hassle of having to repackage a model and send it off with a note or return it to the local shop and all that that entails, hoping it arrives, delay in sending it off, waiting for a repair or replacement, will the repair be satisfactory or make it worse? etc. I for one would only return an item if it had a major defect affecting the running or appearance. Im not into nit picking over minor faults which can be sorted myself in a few minutes of my time (which in fact actually would save me time).

I can see the logic as far as if we keep quiet about defects how can manufacturers know and continually improve their products but I think its all about finding a balance between what is patently unacceptable and waht we are happy to overlook and sort ourselves as part and parcel of our "modelling".

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Hornby were manufacturing in the UK up to circa 2000, Lima in Italy until they folded. When Hornby moved production to China there was a leap in product quality and detail of the newly tooled introductions as they used what was then Sanda Kan's expertise, developed in supplying the US HO market. The first all new product was the Merchant Navy, and was greeted in the magazines with exclamation marks after 'can this be a Hornby product?'.

 

They had to make the move, as Bachmann were always China based (as far as the UK OO market was concerned) and were putting out a much better product for the same money. People got all excited about Hornby's MN, but Bachmann's N class and WD arrived earlier and were cheaper and equally good models. And this was no new development, the writing had been on the wall since the 1970s Mainline and Airfix ranges, all Chinese productions; then Replica in the 1980s produced in China by Kader, whose B1 left every Margate produced Hornby model for dead in terms of bodywork refinement.

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I recently attended TINGS and bought 4 locos and a 4Cep unit. The unit runs perfectly, The Dapol Hall I bought is a great runner just like my other Hall. I bought a returned stock A1 which was having problems with the wheels locking when I test ran it at home. This was cured in 2 mins by gluing in a loose bearing to the chassis block. It now runs better than my other A1. The bearing was coming out and twisting and locking the wheels up.

 

I have had to send two locos from the show to DCC supplies. One was a Manor, which runs really well except for a wheel flat on one set of tender wheels which creates a thumping noise. there was also excessive heat from the tender after a run. Similarly a Brit bought at the show is running incredibly hot after only a couple of mins and has a wobble. Both locos were oiled as recommended with Dapoil.

 

Apart from this, I recently had a replacement for a faulty Farish Standard 5 which is a great loco. It is well worth getting a good one as this puts my last one to shame: bearly a hint of any wobble and perfect pick-up.

 

I have sent a Farish class 20 for replacement as it is very noisy indeed and by all accounts these should be silent.

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Thinking again about the detail problem- the finer the detail the more likely it is to arrive broken. The closer we want our models to look like the prototype the finer the clearances will have to be, and thus the less room for the thing to be a little adrift and still work properly.

 

One reason (amongst many) that I got out of US N-scale was handrails- US diesels are festooned with the things. Fine when we were satisfied with heavy-duty overscale bits but now the requirement is for them to look scale thickness. This means that if they haven't broken in transit (and I've sent back Atlas, Athearn and Intermountain locos to US dealers because they arrived with broken handrails) they break as soon as you look at them- and how do you pick the thing up without breaking them? Don't say "don't pick it up" as some of us don't have permanent layouts to leave them on.

 

On running- we want stuff that runs like a Swiss watch. As my father (who repaired watches in his spare time) used to say "Swiss watches are the best, but the best costs a lot of money" (usually followed by "and I can't afford to buy you one".....)

 

Les

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I know the thread is mostly N gauge. I would comment that I used to put my trust in Heljan diesels and I have a number of the original Westerns and Hymeks which arrived unblemished and run 'rock steady'. More recently I bought the 'new' version of Western Enterprise and Lion. On Western Enterprise the front skirt and lower body parts are a different shade to the rest of the body (I suspect due to differences in the base plastic). Lion is another story. It wobbled along the track and the motor ran very warm. Howes at Oxford / Heljan can be helpful and when I suggested that one of the wheel sets was faulty they sent a replacement by return of post. Whilst it is greatly improved I know it still does not run 'rock steady'. My original Heljan's were all made in Denmark. Enterprise and Lion were made in China. Do I need to say any more.

 

Ray

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  • 4 weeks later...

I'm one who has had a lot of dicky models, both Farish and Dapol. The most disappointing was Tornado, which struggled to push itself round the track, never mind pull a full load. Hot motors, sticky mechanisms, broken lighting.....but lets not forget the time bomb of the Farish Poole-built split gears.

 

In my childhood I had Hornby and Lima oo which all ran as well as could be expected. the only faulty one was a Hornby 86, bught when the model was new for my 10th birthday. I presume they had a bad batch as we had about 5 before we had one that wouldn't have a motor bearing failure after a few minutes use. I can still remember the noise to this day.

 

Surely the cost of all this replacement makes China not quite as cheap as it first appears.

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