Buckjumper Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 As we're having a brake-van fest... it looks like I got my inner handrails wrong too. This was the last one I built, probably in about 2005 I guess, from my olde-style embankment and background photo. My first BR BV was built 10 years earlier, c1995 and was one of my first 7mm Slater's kits. I've still got that one lurking in a box somewhere. For Robin's benefit, I think the only real issues I remember having as a relative 7mm newbie was getting the clasp brakes to fit properly without catching the wheels, and the instructions for the brake rodding were as clear as mud to someone not used to the technical aspects. In the mid-90s it would have been nice to have had a resource such as RMweb where someone could have posted a shot of the underside of their model to help me, but photo-rich internet forums were still a decade in the future! Anyway, the real reason for posting the photo is this; one thing I did correct was the rainstrips. Looking at prototype photos they came in many different shapes and orientations on these vans, but I've never found a photo showing such a wildly curved U - and why would they be like that anyway? I have noticed that many 4mm brake vans sport the same feature, so it is a case of perpetuating a modeller's error? Perspective distortion from a side-on drawing? So I carved them off, sanded the roof smooth and fitted straight pieces of strip instead . 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 As we're having a brake-van fest... it looks like I got my inner handrails wrong too. This was the last one I built, probably in about 2005 I guess, from my olde-style embankment and background photo. brake951342_01a.jpg My first BR BV was built 10 years earlier, c1995 and was one of my first 7mm Slater's kits. I've still got that one lurking in a box somewhere. For Robin's benefit, I think the only real issues I remember having as a relative 7mm newbie was getting the clasp brakes to fit properly without catching the wheels, and the instructions for the brake rodding were as clear as mud to someone not used to the technical aspects. In the mid-90s it would have been nice to have had a resource such as RMweb where someone could have posted a shot of the underside of their model to help me, but photo-rich internet forums were still a decade in the future! Anyway, the real reason for posting the photo is this; one thing I did correct was the rainstrips. Looking at prototype photos they came in many different shapes and orientations on these vans, but I've never found a photo showing such a wildly curved U - and why would they be like that anyway? I have noticed that many 4mm brake vans sport the same feature, so it is a case of perpetuating a modeller's error? Perspective distortion from a side-on drawing? So I carved them off, sanded the roof smooth and fitted straight pieces of strip instead . You make some good points. I like your van, has a nice weather-beaten look. So - a brake-van fest, eh? Here's my Slater's van complete with erroneous handrails and rain-strips... It is now a regular on Dock Green, usually bringing up the rear of the coal train. it is a nice model, but from a builder's point of view I still prefer the Connoisseur brass kit. Those curved rain-strips might well be a mis-reading - possibly originating with Nick Campling's drawing of a Toad E that appears in "British Goods Wagons", that slim volume that was first published in 1970 and might well have been the first wagon book (?). Chaz 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 One of the problems one faces when assembling a Slater's van kit... These curvy parts are supposed to be flat. Of course accurate assembly of the corners between sides and ends will pull them flat but they do cause me to think longingly for the chunky flat parts of a Parkside kit. I have always felt that one of these kits would be easy for an octopus. You really need more than two hands, but we can enlist the help of the steel block and magnets again. Here you can see the steel block and two magnets holding the end flat and upright. Adding a side, also held with magnets, allows the corner joint to be adjusted very finely, getting everything in line and neatly closed up. Of course you can't get at the inside of the joint to apply solvent and I wouldn't want to apply it to the outside. But with the LH end held firmly and accurately together I was able to manipulate the RH end into position and then weld it with solvent. Brush the solvent on the joint from the inside - but don't have a finger on the joint line - my thumb isn't actually touching it, although it looks like it in the photo'. If you aren't careful about this and solvent runs right through the joint it might well run under the finger, giving rise to the dreaded etched fingerprint. Providing you don't apply too much solvent you don't have to hold the joint together for very long before it will hold. Looking from the other side - the brush is pointing at a section of floor to side joint which can also be welded. Having got this far I went to kitchen and cooked lunch. I wanted that first corner to harden off before I took on the next. Chaz 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 Could you not put a piece of flat brass or indeed wood strip (1/16", say) between the inner side and the steel block, to create a small offset? Also, would it help in anyway to blow some hot air over the pieces, to soften the end? Just a little - not enough to deform the moulded detail, just enough to allow the plastic to be straightened up. Something like a hair dryer on a medium setting, played carefully over the joint from a slight distance. Yes Simon you could put packing between the steel block and the work but if you had enough packing to be able to get a brush down the joint the separation would decrease the power of the magnets. Magnetic force decreases at a rate proportional to the cube of the distance. Move a magnet twice as far away and the force is diminished to an eighth. But I think the block is always going to be in the way - doesn't matter - holding one end while you glue the other works well. Yes you could use hot air to soften plastic - I don't, it's risky and as you can see from my photos unnecessary. But if you want to try it... Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 There are quite a lot of warnings in this next bit starting with - don't weld that underframe part in place until you have the solebars fitted.Getting ready to fit the second side and those round things dotted about are the magnets. They will leap into contact if you let 'em so you can see how I have spaced them well apart on the bench so that I can pick them up one at a time. If you have a joint manipulated into position in your hand you don't want to have to put it down again so that you can separate a pair of amorous magnets. I fit the second side in the same way as the first holding the joint at one end together with the block and magnets while I hold the other by hand and apply solvent. Once all the body shell joints have hardened off enough to safely handle (go off and make a tree?) the solebars can be fitted. Before you do this check that the length is correct - lay them on top of the side and and in line with the buffer beam channels. Trim the solebar ends until they look as though they will fit. It's a struggle to get them in - it will be impossible if they are too long. You will also need to fit the axle bearings at this stage. I found the holes too tight for the bearings - a 2.6mm drill will open them out just enough but be careful - you want to enlarge the holes but not deepen them. I put a spot of superglue in the hole with a wire. Don't use too much! Pushing the bearing in will force any excess out and your thumb may end up glued to the work. To get the solebars into position between the frames and those brackets on the side stanchions is tricky - tilting the solebar forwards so that the top flange of the channel slips in first helps. A very small screwdriver will also help you to get the top brackets over the top solebar flange by carefully bending them away from the floor. You can also get a bit more clearance by gently bending the framing members sideways (you won't be able to do this if the underframe is already glued to the floor). If you find it impossible to get the solebars in you could trim a little off the backs of those side stanchion brackets but it should be possible without doing this. Don't weld the solebars into position until you have popped the wheelsets in, this is easy to do while they are still loose. If you have got this far you have probably decided that your next plastic wagon kit will be a Parkside. The last photo', a top view, shows the sides bowing in. I won't be fixing on the roof yet but before I do I will cut and fit a spreader bar between the doors which will push the sides flat. What is it about this plastic that makes it want to curve? (This is not a banana van) Chaz 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 No further progress until this evening as I am off to Magdalen Common again today. More volunteering - scrub clearance - let's hope the butterflies benefit! Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckjumper Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 From the 2nd and 3rd photos in the above post, I've only just realised there is some detail included on the Slater's vans which is omitted from Parkside's, and that is the bracket which joins the bottom of the outside frames to the solebar, tying the body to the underframe on the prototype - compare with your SR van on post #3451. Ironically the Parkside solebar has the small foot of the L moulded so all it needs is a sliver of strip between the two to complete, whereas the Slater's solebar omits this and needs the foot of the bracket represented. I'd not noticed that before! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alant Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Another one for the brake van fest. This is a Slater's kit and I must have got the handrails right but built it a few years ago and can't remember how or why now! There's probably a hundred other things wrong with it though. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fettster42 Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I purchased some right angle clamps from EDM, probably more expensive than Chazs block and magnets but have a nice cut out in the corner so you can get glue down the join you are clamping. They are not huge and pretty strong, just about small enough to fit inside an On30 caboose cupola. Leigh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Strathwood Posted December 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 11, 2015 One of the problems one faces when assembling a Slater's van kit... These curvy parts are supposed to be flat. Of course accurate assembly of the corners between sides and ends will pull them flat but they do cause me to think longingly for the chunky flat parts of a Parkside kit. I have always felt that one of these kits would be easy for an octopus. You really need more than two hands, but we can enlist the help of the steel block and magnets again. Here you can see the steel block and two magnets holding the end flat and upright. Adding a side, also held with magnets, allows the corner joint to be adjusted very finely, getting everything in line and neatly closed up. Of course you can't get at the inside of the joint to apply solvent and I wouldn't want to apply it to the outside. But with the LH end held firmly and accurately together I was able to manipulate the RH end into position and then weld it with solvent. Brush the solvent on the joint from the inside - but don't have a finger on the joint line - my thumb isn't actually touching it, although it looks like it in the photo'. If you aren't careful about this and solvent runs right through the joint it might well run under the finger, giving rise to the dreaded etched fingerprint. Providing you don't apply too much solvent you don't have to hold the joint together for very long before it will hold. Looking from the other side - the brush is pointing at a section of floor to side joint which can also be welded. Having got this far I went to kitchen and cooked lunch. I wanted that first corner to harden off before I took on the next. Chaz How does all this compare with the JLTRT vans? As a novice in 7mm should I venture there first to cut my teeth and to give the Terriers something to pull once the tack goes down after Christmas. Meanwhile a few items from Dapol's RTR range may be purchased. Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 A length of angle (ali/brass/steel) with a piece of steel or washers glued or screwed on each inside face could be useful, magnets on the inside of van body. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) From the 2nd and 3rd photos in the above post, I've only just realised there is some detail included on the Slater's vans which is omitted from Parkside's, and that is the bracket which joins the bottom of the outside frames to the solebar, tying the body to the underframe on the prototype - compare with your SR van on post #3451. Ironically the Parkside solebar has the small foot of the L moulded so all it needs is a sliver of strip between the two to complete, whereas the Slater's solebar omits this and needs the foot of the bracket represented. I'd not noticed that before! Quite so - I noticed it only because I have both makes of van on the bench together. Of course the lack of these brackets makes the MOGO considerably easier to build. I suppose one could go the extra mile and put the missing details on but.... the missing brackets are very obvious in the photo you refer to as the viewpoint is upwards - I suspect that when the van is on the track they will be much less so. Chaz Edited December 11, 2015 by chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) A length of angle (ali/brass/steel) with a piece of steel or washers glued or screwed on each inside face could be useful, magnets on the inside of van body. Yes, although it will have to be steel if you want to use magnets. Also one needs to be wary as the inside faces of angle are not always at a right angle to each other. If you are going to put the magnets inside presumably the angle goes outside? This may not work so well as moulded detail on the outside may cause the parts to sit at odd angles. Try it and see? Edited December 11, 2015 by chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 How does all this compare with the JLTRT vans? As a novice in 7mm should I venture there first to cut my teeth and to give the Terriers something to pull once the tack goes down after Christmas. Meanwhile a few items from Dapol's RTR range may be purchased. Kevin I can't answer that as the JLTRT SR vans that I ordered have not come yet. When they do I will I post details. (JLTRT don't carry any stock as their kits are available in several variations - the kits are made up to order. Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 I purchased some right angle clamps from EDM, probably more expensive than Chazs block and magnets but have a nice cut out in the corner so you can get glue down the join you are clamping. They are not huge and pretty strong, just about small enough to fit inside an On30 caboose cupola. Leigh Any chance of a photo' showing these in use? Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Yes, although it will have to be steel if you want to use magnets. Also one needs to be wary as the inside faces of angle are not always at a right angle to each other. obviously, that's why I said stick on some bits of steel.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 obviously, that's why I said stick on some bits of steel.... OK, got it. Of course the steel block and magnets method works so well (for me) that I'm not looking for an alternative. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Yeh, maybe, but you can't get the glue/solvent down the inside of the corner, with your block in the way. Anyway, I use a couple of slotted angles, probably like the EDM device that Leigh mentioned, allows access to both inside and outside of corner, more or less. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 Another one for the brake van fest. This is a Slater's kit and I must have got the handrails right but built it a few years ago and can't remember how or why now! There's probably a hundred other things wrong with it though. PICT0253crop.jpg Nice photo'. Golly, I thought the trains were too short on Dock Green.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Any chance of a photo' showing these in use? Chaz Not sure if these are the same ones, but this is a York Modelmaking magnetic clamp on a Coopercraft wagon I'm building (first wagon I've built for a couple of decades, or more!). I put a piece of card packing on the end to get it square. I actually used two clamps on each corner while sticking them, attached top and bottom, ran some solvent down the middle of the side, then slid each clamp down in turn and applied solvent at the top and bottom. I'm still getting used to using them, as I've only had them a few days, so will hopefully refine my methods in time. This shows the clamps more clearly. This is a Peco wagon I bought not quite finished on eBay, whose end fell out when I was about to fit the buffers! The reattached joins are slightly better than they look here, as I was still working on it! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alant Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) Nice photo'. Golly, I thought the trains were too short on Dock Green.... Thanks Chaz. I could just about squeeze another van/wagon in but gets tight in the fiddleyard then. Edited December 11, 2015 by alant Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 Not sure if these are the same ones, but this is a York Modelmaking magnetic clamp on a Coopercraft wagon I'm building (first wagon I've built for a couple of decades, or more!). I put a piece of card packing on the end to get it square. I actually used two clamps on each corner while sticking them, attached top and bottom, ran some solvent down the middle of the side, then slid each clamp down in turn and applied solvent at the top and bottom. I'm still getting used to using them, as I've only had them a few days, so will hopefully refine my methods in time. RIMG2527.JPG This shows the clamps more clearly. This is a Peco wagon I bought not quite finished on eBay, whose end fell out when I was about to fit the buffers! The reattached joins are slightly better than they look here, as I was still working on it! RIMG2530.JPG They look very useful. With all of these methods the big advantage is that they give you the means to take your time setting up a joint and will hold the joint, preventing any movement while solvent evaporates and the plastic hardens. Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Yes Simon you could put packing between the steel block and the work but if you had enough packing to be able to get a brush down the joint the separation would decrease the power of the magnets. Magnetic force decreases at a rate proportional to the cube of the distance. Move a magnet twice as far away and the force is diminished to an eighth. But I think the block is always going to be in the way - doesn't matter - holding one end while you glue the other works well. Yes you could use hot air to soften plastic - I don't, it's risky and as you can see from my photos unnecessary. But if you want to try it... Chaz You could mill a rather fetching 45 degree x 10mm chamfer down one corner of your steel block... Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 They look very useful. With all of these methods the big advantage is that they give you the means to take your time setting up a joint and will hold the joint, preventing any movement while solvent evaporates and the plastic hardens. Chaz The grip isn't incredibly strong, certainly nowhere near as strong as a screw or spring clamp could be, and I don't know how it compares with yours Chaz, but they are certainly useful and do the job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 You could mill a rather fetching 45 degree x 10mm chamfer down one corner of your steel block... Best Simon I could do that Simon, if I had access a milling machine but I fear I would have to resort to a file... sounds a bit arduous? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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