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Don't get too bogged down with our talk about compensation/springing side at this stage Lee, and definitely don't let the concept be a hindrance to you getting on and enjoying building wagons. With Slater's and Parkside kits just follow the instructions in the box and Chaz's step-by-step photo guides and you'll be fine. At some point in the future you might think 'I'll have a go at compensation', and you may find it improves things a bit for you, but then again, maybe you won't notice any difference! There really isn't one true path to getting it right; we all forge our own little furrow and take concepts and ideas from others which resonate with us and work for us.

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And a happy new year to you to! I note from your profile that you have a new workshop - so have you got over your flood?

 

If you do go to the St Albans show do please come and have a chat.

 

Chaz

 

Whoops - I missed your earlier post. I'll put it down to Xmas excesses ;)

 

Yes, we were signed off in December, almost 22 months to the day of the flood. It's been a long journey but we're just about there now, with just a few minor niggles to iron out, so I'm back to modelling at last. Eighteen months ago the room I'm sitting in typing this was a shell; bare brick, concrete floor, no windows or doors, demolished walls, the ceiling was held up with acrow props and there were a couple of driers, a desiccator and dehumidifier running full pelt. It also took two rebuilds to get right, and was one of ten downstairs rooms affected and rebuilt to various degrees. All that and the weekly - often daily - battles with the first loss adjuster (who after investigation was eventually removed for improper practice, and not just towards us...I can't say any more than that!) and then with the dilatory restoration company. Suffice to say that I'm feeling a great deal of empathy with people in the North and in Scotland who were flooded over Christmas, and the gamut of emotions they'll experience over the coming months.

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Whoops - I missed your earlier post. I'll put it down to Xmas excesses ;)

 

Yes, we were signed off in December, almost 22 months to the day of the flood. It's been a long journey but we're just about there now, with just a few minor niggles to iron out, so I'm back to modelling at last. Eighteen months ago the room I'm sitting in typing this was a shell; bare brick, concrete floor, no windows or doors, demolished walls, the ceiling was held up with acrow props and there were a couple of driers, a desiccator and dehumidifier running full pelt. It also took two rebuilds to get right, and was one of ten downstairs rooms affected and rebuilt to various degrees. All that and the weekly - often daily - battles with the first loss adjuster (who after investigation was eventually removed for improper practice, and not just towards us...I can't say any more than that!) and then with the dilatory restoration company. Suffice to say that I'm feeling a great deal of empathy with people in the North and in Scotland who were flooded over Christmas, and the gamut of emotions they'll experience over the coming months.

Loss Adjuster = Claim Reducer.

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Loss Adjuster = Claim Reducer.

 

Yes, of course, an important job and in such circumstances par for the course. But due to his long and fruitless investigations where he was chasing ghosts and insinuations of his own making, where he was 'deliberately losing documentation' (that's a quote from the initial disaster recovery company), where he was lying to cover his own improprieties, and ultimately his inaction to sign off documentation to get flooded rooms dried out properly, we went from having seven rooms affected by floodwater to ten because of secondary damage, and several month in, the claim almost doubled, moving into six figures.

 

Ultimately we were vindicated when an email he'd written was unintentionally forwarded to us and blew his game wide open. Our insurance company was not happy (understatement) and after an investigation by both the insurers and the loss adjusting company it was found he was attempting to wipe out both ours and many other affected homeowners' insurance (I probably can't say why, but I'm sure you can guess), and the result was he was removed from his position.

 

You can imagine the distress his actions caused on top of having lost so much in the flood, and although we were treated with the greatest respect by the loss adjusters afterwards, and our enlarged claim paid in full (I suppose in today's litigious culture a concern for them was that we could have caused a serious legal ruckus, but all we wanted was to get our house back to normal and to be able to replace possessions we'd lost), that one bad apple has spoiled the barrel and my opinion of that profession is consequently rather low.

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Yes, of course, an important job and in such circumstances par for the course. But due to his long and fruitless investigations where he was chasing ghosts and insinuations of his own making, where he was 'deliberately losing documentation' (that's a quote from the initial disaster recovery company), where he was lying to cover his own improprieties, and ultimately his inaction to sign off documentation to get flooded rooms dried out properly, we went from having seven rooms affected by floodwater to ten because of secondary damage, and several month in, the claim almost doubled, moving into six figures.

 

Ultimately we were vindicated when an email he'd written was unintentionally forwarded to us and blew his game wide open. Our insurance company was not happy (understatement) and after an investigation by both the insurers and the loss adjusting company it was found he was attempting to wipe out both ours and many other affected homeowners' insurance (I probably can't say why, but I'm sure you can guess), and the result was he was removed from his position.

 

You can imagine the distress his actions caused on top of having lost so much in the flood, and although we were treated with the greatest respect by the loss adjusters afterwards, and our enlarged claim paid in full (I suppose in today's litigious culture a concern for them was that we could have caused a serious legal ruckus, but all we wanted was to get our house back to normal and to be able to replace possessions we'd lost), that one bad apple has spoiled the barrel and my opinion of that profession is consequently rather low.

I don't want to hijack Chaz's forum, but I work in reinsurance so know all about loss adjusters. I suffered a catastrophic model railway loss when windstorm Daria hit in February 1990. At the time we were living in Army Married Officers' Quarters in Pirbright and my 4mm scale layout Abersoch layout was housed in the brick-built garage. The wind lifted the flat roof and dropped it inside the garage destroying most of the contents. For some reason our car was not parked in the garage as usual and was completely untouched by the storm. We didn't have to worry about the structure because it was MOD property and self-insured i.e.not insured. When the loss adjuster arrived there was just a pile of rubble as the Property Services Agency had ordered the almost immediate demolition of the garage for safety reasons. The loss adjuster was very good in this instance as we tried to value the replacement of scratchbuilt buikdings, hand-built track etc. Ultimately, he agreed to replace non-proprietary items at the cost of the materials and employing a professional model-maker to replace the buildings  and the retail price of Marcway points to replace my copper-clad points. I had no complaints and I thought he was sympathetic because it was such an unusual claim.

Yes, of course, an important job and in such circumstances par for the course. But due to his long and fruitless investigations where he was chasing ghosts and insinuations of his own making, where he was 'deliberately losing documentation' (that's a quote from the initial disaster recovery company), where he was lying to cover his own improprieties, and ultimately his inaction to sign off documentation to get flooded rooms dried out properly, we went from having seven rooms affected by floodwater to ten because of secondary damage, and several month in, the claim almost doubled, moving into six figures.

 

Ultimately we were vindicated when an email he'd written was unintentionally forwarded to us and blew his game wide open. Our insurance company was not happy (understatement) and after an investigation by both the insurers and the loss adjusting company it was found he was attempting to wipe out both ours and many other affected homeowners' insurance (I probably can't say why, but I'm sure you can guess), and the result was he was removed from his position.

 

You can imagine the distress his actions caused on top of having lost so much in the flood, and although we were treated with the greatest respect by the loss adjusters afterwards, and our enlarged claim paid in full (I suppose in today's litigious culture a concern for them was that we could have caused a serious legal ruckus, but all we wanted was to get our house back to normal and to be able to replace possessions we'd lost), that one bad apple has spoiled the barrel and my opinion of that profession is consequently rather low.

I don't want to hijack Chaz's forum, but I work in reinsurance so know all about loss adjusters. I suffered a catastrophic model railway loss when windstorm Daria hit in February 1990. At the time we were living in Army Married Officers' Quarters in Pirbright and my 4mm scale layout Abersoch layout was housed in the brick-built garage. The wind lifted the flat roof and dropped it inside the garage destroying most of the contents. For some reason our car was not parked in the garage as usual and was completely untouched by the storm. We didn't have to worry about the structure because it was MOD property and self-insured i.e.not insured. When the loss adjuster arrived there was just a pile of rubble as the Property Services Agency had ordered the almost immediate demolition of the garage for safety reasons. The loss adjuster was very good in this instance as we tried to value the replacement of scratchbuilt buikdings, hand-built track etc. Ultimately, he agreed to replace non-proprietary items at the cost of the materials and employing a professional model-maker to replace the buildings  and the retail price of Marcway points to replace my copper-clad points. I had no complaints and I thought he was sympathetic because it was such an unusual claim.

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For running S7 outside I know Richard Davidson in Australia has an outside S7 track he is also a superb wagon builder He has written some interesting articles in the Gazette over the years. The last one was two MR tank wagons he built for Bob Essery  in the May2011 issue. Really Impressive. The Guild archive using a Author Search will link to his various articles.

Don

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I didn't realise, or I'd forgotten, that Richard's layout was outdoors Don.That's pretty impressive in any gauge given the temperatures endured there. Agree his scratchbuilt wagons are fantastic.

I do not think it is the high temperatures that are the problem. Here in Brazil I have thought about outside running. I think it would actually be easier than in the UK, we only have about 15C degree change, Were as where I lived in Dorset you had to allow for a 25-30C change.

 

But scale seven out doors is still impressive.

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AND NOW BACK TO NORTH LONDON...

 

If the Lowmac is going to be a regular on Dock Green it must have a load.

 

P1020163a700x403.jpg

 

I have seen such wagons running on layouts loaded with all sorts of machinery and stuff but I fancy a large crate - big enough to justify the use of this wagon to keep the load within the loading gauge. A fairly simple modelling task that can be made from stuff in stock.

 

First move was to make up a shell out of plywood. I could have used card, but plywood is self-bracing and cutting the pieces on a miniature circular saw (Proxon) made all the edges square and straight.

 

P1050778-2%20600%20x%20340_zpsvacyarvm.j

 

This would need planking to be a convincing crate. Pencil lines drawn on the top are to help me keep the planking parallel. It's very easy for planks to get out of kilter and it looks awful when you get to the other end. If they do start to drift off you can spot the error, the lines will show it, and ease them back.

 

P1050785-2%20600%20x%20484_zpszagyzfyb.j

 

Such a load would need to be securely fastened. Fortunately the Lowmac has a lot of roping rings. I gave some thought to adding some similar rings to the crate. A search in "the stores" turned up some brass rings and split pins.

 

P1050781-2%20600%20x%20484_zpsrcxzsj9b.j

 

Mindful of the problems getting paint on these and keeping it on I decided to chemically blacken them.

 

P1050783-2%20600%20x%20474_zpsnopfjybc.j

 

Diposable gloves, a baking tray to catch any drips and a sensible level of care is essential with such a toxic chemical - read the label! The result makes the necessary precautions worth it.

 

P1050784-2%20600%20x%20514_zpsxzwrk25u.j

 

Last picture shows the crate almost finished and ready to be roped down. The planking? 0.8mm plywood cut into strips with the Proxon miniature circular saw (a very useful piece of kit) and glued on with a fast-tack PVA.

 

P1050786%20600%20x%20450_zpsdsbekrwr.jpg

 

I used black "art" paper for the corner plates that carry the rope rings, this could also be attached with PVA. The screws securing these to the crate are represented by Peco track pins cut short and pushed into 0.6mm holes. The split pins holding the rings are in 0.9mm holes drilled into the corner at 45 degrees.

 

Before I secure the crate to the wagon I will have a go at producing a company board to fix to the sides. I should be able to cobble something together with the software in the laptop. I did consider doing some mock stencil lettering on the planks with a mapping pen but bottled it - I don't want to risk wrecking the work I have done with some ham-fisted effort.

 

The crate will be left with pristine woodwork - whatever is being delivered inside it (some valuable piece of machinery?) might well be put in a new crate for delivery.

 

Chaz

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On Mikkel's Farthing Layouts thread he did some work on producing cases with the lettering on. Might have some ideas. I do like the work on the case rather a posh one something valuable in there I think

Don

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Are those rings for tying the load down to the wagon, or for lifting it up? If the latter, i would be surprised, as I would expect the weight to be taken at the bottom of the crate, ie underneath the load. Packaging for shipping isn't usually made to be structural, other than underneath the contents; the sides and top are there to keep people out, and a tarpaulin would be used to keep the weather out, if necessary.

 

Jim

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Are those rings for tying the load down to the wagon, or for lifting it up? If the latter, i would be surprised, as I would expect the weight to be taken at the bottom of the crate, ie underneath the load. Packaging for shipping isn't usually made to be structural, other than underneath the contents; the sides and top are there to keep people out, and a tarpaulin would be used to keep the weather out, if necessary.

 

Jim

 

I assume it would be lifted from the wagon with slings and a crane (or a fork-lift), hence the timber baulks under the crate. The rope ring rings are there to secure the crate in position.

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On Mikkel's Farthing Layouts thread he did some work on producing cases with the lettering on. Might have some ideas. I do like the work on the case rather a posh one something valuable in there I think

Don

 

What's his thread called? Better still can you link the relevant page, please?

 

"rather a posh one something valuable in there I think" - we will never know!

 

Chaz

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Chaz this in the bit I remember http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/75/entry-15936-small-crates-and-tea-chests/

looking at it he printed onto veneer before building the crate so a bit too late for the one you have built but a useful idea. Mikkel works in 4mm but I could see you finding places to put such crates on Dock Green.

Don

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Decisions, decisions. So much to do and so little time... I could rope up the crate, or finish the MOGO, or the BR 12T van, or the weathering on the TUBE and the INSUL-MEAT (all four also need couplings) - looks like the JLTRT vans must wait a bit longer.

 

Chaz

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I assume it would be lifted from the wagon with slings and a crane (or a fork-lift), hence the timber baulks under the crate. The rope ring rings are there to secure the crate in position.

Correct in one, and I would assume that the baulks under the crate are actually part of the crate.

 

I raised it only because a surprising number of modellers (obviously not yourself) don't seem to have the first clue about how loads are secured on wagons.

 

Regards,

 

Jim

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I spent some time this morning at the laptop making it up some name boards (?) to go on the crate. I first tried to use MS Word - I should have known better - I won't say anything else about Word as I would have to use some very naughty words...

 

in the end I did the boards in Excel and then used the Snip tool to turn the design into a JPEG file. I asked Sue to do some prints for me.

 

P1050788-2%20600%20x%20220_zpsvitrjqmu.j

 

The print of the left is on glossy photo-paper. The centre one is also on glossy, but sprayed with Dullcote. That on the right is on matte paper and is the best IMO.

 

I cut the prints, tinted the edges with a pencil (In a test found a black pen produced too obvious an effect), and stuck the boards to the crate with Fast-tack PVA applied with a wire to the back of the boards.

 

P1050789-2%20600%20x%20349_zpstg6lxeew.j

 

Checking through books failed to turn up a roped crate but a few loaded wagons suggest that the roping should be diagonal. This is the roping scheme that I think will be most likely.

 

P1050790-2%20600%20x%20498_zpszqt43vrn.j

 

Obviously both ends will be similar.

 

Chaz

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Chaz,

 

I don't claim expertise here, but I don't like the looped rope. I think the various lashings would tend to be separate, as otherwise the whole thing could potentially slip.

 

The forces your load would undergo would be, most importantly, braking / acceleration - actually, probably banging trucks together in heavy shunts would be the worst of this. The lashings from the box to the buffer beams would tend to prevent that, but there might also be chocks or wedges at floor level too.

 

Secondly, a tall box might tend to roll over (dependent on the centre of gravity of whatever's inside, of course) so the diagonal lashings from floor to ring would tend to prevent that.

 

I'm sure these would be set up as independent lashings, although of course they may use both ends of the same rope.

 

Some good stuff here, though I think it's aimed at ships rather than trains

 

https://www2.unece.org/wiki/plugins/servlet/mobile#content/view/23102048

 

Best

Simon

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Chaz,

 

I don't claim expertise here, but I don't like the looped rope. I think the various lashings would tend to be separate, as otherwise the whole thing could potentially slip.

 

The forces your load would undergo would be, most importantly, braking / acceleration - actually, probably banging trucks together in heavy shunts would be the worst of this. The lashings from the box to the buffer beams would tend to prevent that, but there might also be chocks or wedges at floor level too.

 

Secondly, a tall box might tend to roll over (dependent on the centre of gravity of whatever's inside, of course) so the diagonal lashings from floor to ring would tend to prevent that.

 

I'm sure these would be set up as independent lashings, although of course they may use both ends of the same rope.

 

Some good stuff here, though I think it's aimed at ships rather than trains

 

https://www2.unece.org/wiki/plugins/servlet/mobile#content/view/23102048

 

Best

Simon

 

Thanks, Simon. I'm sure you are right. I must admit I was just trying to cut down the number of knots I will have to tie! :nono:  Individual lashings it is (doubled?).

 

Although I will in fact glue the crate to the wagon - it will inevitable get picked up by the crate :O  and the lashings would not long stay taut.

 

I followed your link and there is one very useful sketch which shows diagonal roping.

 

Chaz

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A revised roping scheme...

 

P1050795-2%20600%20x%20437_zpsro79q7e4.j

 

How's that Simon? Each rope is doubled (up and back) but that would not give rise to any problems, I think, just make the lashings stronger?

 

Chaz

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Hello Chas

 

It there any particular reason you are going for ropes? Ropes have some definite drawbacks when used for lashing, for example if they get wet they can stretch.

 

If you look in the LNER wagons book at the Lowmacs (P98) you can see that they are fitted with chains and tensioners. All the pictures I could find of containers - the nearest thing I could find to your crate (which have a very similar fixing arrangement to your box with the ring mounted high up on the corners) and probably of similar weight, all use chains.

 

Perhaps the reason you could not find any pictures is that they didn't use rope for these types of loads, only lighter loads such as straw/hay or wooden planks?

 

Hope this helps

 

Rgds Andrew

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Hello Chas

 

It there any particular reason you are going for ropes? Ropes have some definite drawbacks when used for lashing, for example if they get wet they can stretch.

 

If you look in the LNER wagons book at the Lowmacs (P98) you can see that they are fitted with chains and tensioners. All the pictures I could find of containers - the nearest thing I could find to your crate (which have a very similar fixing arrangement to your box with the ring mounted high up on the corners) and probably of similar weight, all use chains.

 

Perhaps the reason you could not find any pictures is that they didn't use rope for these types of loads, only lighter loads such as straw/hay or wooden planks?

 

Hope this helps

 

Rgds Andrew

 

There are pictures in Geoff Kent's "The 4mm Wagon - Part 3" on P2 of two containers lashed into wagons with ropes - although they are not Conflats.

 

My preference for rope lashings is based on my experience when I chained a steel load onto my bogie-bolster and the difficulties this presented in getting the fixings tight. I accepted a degree of compromise - look at page 54 of this topic. I could use chains - if I do I will use the chain tensioners (unfortunately non-working) that Slater's sell for use with for their containers or 4mm screw couplings adapted for the purpose.

 

Chaz

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