Dock Green

[bgman]

Thank you very, very much for the series explaining this super layout. You've definitely put the " meat on the bones" by doing so and I for one have certainly enjoyed reading them together with the photographs. Brilliant !

I hope that one day I can get the opportunity to see it at an exhibition if its not too late !

 

Grahame

[chaz]

Thank you very, very much for the series explaining this super layout. You've definitely put the " meat on the bones" by doing so and I for one have certainly enjoyed reading them together with the photographs. Brilliant !

I hope that one day I can get the opportunity to see it at an exhibition if its not too late !

 

Grahame

 

 

Oh, it's not too late, Grahame. I anticipate Dock Green going to shows for maybe the next four or five years. Once the whole team have passed 75 years it may be difficult to hire a van but until then we soldier on.

 

 

Chaz

[chaz]

One annoyance on the forum is when you spot a plea for help or advice, you type in what you hope is a helpful reply and then the OP does nothing, can't even be bothered to click thanks. Just bad manners. 

 

Enough of that, winge over, here are a couple more snaps which I have left over in my ready to post folder.

 

 

That's the big 19 foot wheel-base Tube - built from an excellent Connoisseur etched brass kit. It's quite a beastie but with a rocking compensator on one of the axles tracks really well. It's quite heavy, which helps. This is one of the few wagons on Dock Green that I used weathering powders on. I love the little clips that hold the capping strip in place along the top of the top planks. Not many kits include this detail.

 

 

The board is off and the Brush Type 2 is about to leave the yard with a trip back to Ferme Park.

 

The arrival of these diesels at 34G eased the loco crisis on the suburban services out of "The Cross". At the time I hated them and the Brush Type 4s as they signalled the end of steam at the southern end of the ECML. The brown crud along the lower sides of the loco is not rust, it's brake dust and I understand stopping these 107 ton monsters generated plenty of it. This DJH built model is very heavy itself - the body shell being from cast metal parts.

 

Chaz

Edited March 28, 2018 by chaz

[sb67]

Fantastic stuff Chaz, thanks for the operating insight and more photos, really looking forward to seeing your layout. There's so much I find inspiring especially the thought that has gone into the planning. Well done.

Steve.

[chaz]

Fantastic stuff Chaz, thanks for the operating insight and more photos, really looking forward to seeing your layout. There's so much I find inspiring especially the thought that has gone into the planning. Well done.

Steve.

 

 

It's always very encouraging when people like yourself are so enthusiastic about the layout. It's not everybody's cup of tea of course - no passenger traffic, no high speeds, no blue diesels (definitely not!) but I do hope visitors to shows see it as a realistic glimpse back to a scruffy bit of London in the fifties and early sixties. And even if they don't the team enjoys playing - they keep coming back for more.

 

 

Neither of these wagons would be around for much longer on BR. Wooden mineral wagons were swept away by the huge number of steel 16 tonners and the last of the pre-grouping outside frame vans would disappear as the BR standard 12T vans took over. Still it's nice to have a bit of variety on the layout.

 

Chaz

Edited March 28, 2018 by chaz

[keefr2]

- no passenger traffic, no high speeds, no blue diesels (definitely not!)

Which might be the reasons it's one of my favourites! Although as I always manage to keep missing seeing it for real I don't know how fast the trains move - it's difficult to judge speeds in still photo's...!  And although I do like blue diesels, I'm always happy to see the green ones. Some more of which wouldn't go amiss Chaz...!!

 

Keith

[sb67]

It's always very encouraging when people like yourself are so enthusiastic about the layout. It's not everybody's cup of tea of course - no passenger traffic, no high speeds, no blue diesels (definitely not!) but I do hope visitors to shows see it as a realistic glimpse back to a scruffy bit of London in the fifties and early sixties. And even if they don't the team enjoys playing - they keep coming back for more.

 

DSC_0985-2-1.jpg

 

Neither of these wagons would be around for much longer on BR. Wooden mineral wagons were swept away by the huge number of steel 16 tonners and the last of the pre-grouping outside frame vans would disappear as the BR standard 12T vans took over. Still it's nice to have a bit of variety on the layout.

 

Chaz

 

Thanks Chaz, I like it for many reasons, the atmosphere, the plan gives good operating potential and l love the weathering, something I'm struggling with at the moment! The layout and stock (Brush Type 2 looks stunning)  are not too dirty, something which I think is hard to get right. Also being a Londoner it just looks right. I just look at the pics and want to go and try stuff myself.

The pic of the pre grouping wagons is interesting, how long would wagons like that have been around? See, just that photo has given me ideas for my own layout!

You've done a fine job.

Steve.

[Hal Nail]

One annoyance on the forum is when you spot a plea for help or advice, you type in what you hope is a helpful reply and then the OP does nothing, can't even be bothered to click thanks. Just bad manners

Could just be the OP has completely forgotten they posted?! I often surf random new threads and equally often am surprised to find I’ve posted previously. I hate to think what my memory will be like when I’m 75 (I added a smiley here which seems to have been ignored!)

Edited March 29, 2018 by Hal Nail

[chaz]

Could just be the OP has completely forgotten they posted?! I often surf random new threads and equally often am surprised to find I’ve posted previously. I hate to think what my memory will be like when I’m 75 (I added a smiley here which seems to have been ignored!)

 

 

Well, maybe. Isn't that almost as bad?  

[chaz]

Thanks Chaz, I like it for many reasons, the atmosphere, the plan gives good operating potential and l love the weathering, something I'm struggling with at the moment! The layout and stock (Brush Type 2 looks stunning)  are not too dirty, something which I think is hard to get right. Also being a Londoner it just looks right. I just look at the pics and want to go and try stuff myself.

The pic of the pre grouping wagons is interesting, how long would wagons like that have been around? See, just that photo has given me ideas for my own layout!

You've done a fine job.

Steve.

 

I agree with you that "not too dirty" or what I would call "working clean" is more difficult than total filth. To get the Brush Type 2 weathered I spent some some searching books for good colour pictures. I chose the photo' of D5578 on page 10 of Derek Huntriss's "Green Diesel Era" and this was constantly referred to as the paint was applied.

Steam loco's are rather more of a problem. You might want a good colour photo to work from - but try finding a good colour photo of (say) a J50. The job is made even more difficult because photographers would naturally save their precious colour film for clean engines! If only they had had digital cameras we might have rather better luck.

 

 

Total filth - the sort that parcels vans seem to attract like magnets.

 

 

A  glimpse of the goods platform, with the reception road to the right. London's railway system was full of such gloomy, secret corners.

 

Chaz

[bgman]

I just like all of these photos Chaz, the atmosphere is totally beleivable, I hope I can achieve something similar once I get started on mine.

 

Forgive me if I've missed it in the thread, may I ask what lighting / rig you have used ?

 

Cheers

 

Grahame

[chaz]

I did say that I would do some posts on the walls and bridges on Dock Green so this will be next. You are going to have to be patient as it will require a fair amount of digging through the photo folders to unearth snaps that will illustrate the story. I thought I had been very thorough about photographing the layout as it developed but it turns out that I should have taken a lot more - the record has lots of holes. Any researcher will recognise that problem!

 

Chaz

[John Rich]

What a superb thread this is, the photos are stunning. I hope to bump into this layout at a show one day.

 

John

[chaz]

I just like all of these photos Chaz, the atmosphere is totally beleivable, I hope I can achieve something similar once I get started on mine.

 

Forgive me if I've missed it in the thread, may I ask what lighting / rig you have used ?

 

Cheers

 

Grahame

 

I assume you are asking about the lighting we use at shows?

 

In the early days of Dock Green (2010 or 2011) when the layout was just a huge pile of rectangles of plywood Peter and I went to a show in Eastleigh. We spent quite a time wandering around looking at the lighting that the various layouts had. This varied (of course) between nothing at all, the frankly scary with arrangements that sagged and looked in imminent danger of collapse, and massed batteries of spotlights.

 

I decided on a beam that would carry fluorescent tubes. So that visitors would not have their view spoilt by supporting pillars the supports would have to be at the ends which meant a beam 16 feet long. To get this monster into a transit it would have to be in sections.

 

here's an early view.

 

 

The four baseboards have been made but no track has been laid yet. The two pillars are fixed to the legs with 10mm screws and have brackets at their tops so that the lights are stepped away from the baseboard front. This ensures that the front of the layout is well lit. The inverted "U" cross section is not symmetrical. The front is deeper to hide the lights - stopping glare - the back is shallower to allow light to fall right across the two foot width of the board.

 

I would advise anyone building a layout to sort out the lighting early. The more careful modelling you have done the more difficult it will be, and the more damage you can do if you drop tools, lean on the wrong bit etc.

 

 

The picture above, taken at Guildex in Telford 2014, shows the lighting beam in use. Note the join - two strips of ply run across the join inside. To avoid sagging these are held by a total of 24 screws (you can see 12) which fasten into T-nuts in the joining strips. This is possibly over-engineered but on the plus side the beam has never shown the slightest trace of sagging. The join strips are left permanently screwed to one section so there are only (!) 12 screws to fit for each join, not 24.

 

 

Warley at the NEC in 2013. Our first big show. Roy (in the foreground) and Dave (tightening the fixing nuts) have just lifted the beam and guided the projecting screws into the slots in the brackets. Look at the bottom of the photo and you can see one of the two screws that fasten the black pillar to the legs.

 

If I were making this beam again I would LED strips rather than fluorescent tubes.

 

HTH

 

Chaz

Edited March 29, 2018 by chaz

[chaz]

 

The pic of the pre grouping wagons is interesting, how long would wagons like that have been around? See, just that photo has given me ideas for my own layout!

 

Steve.

 

 

Not long, Steve. Many wooden mineral wagons ended their days branded "Loco coal - one trip". Once unloaded at a loco shed they would be broken up and their timber would go into loco fireboxes for lighting up. Checking through the books of photographers such as David Larkin will give you a clearer idea of what survived into BR days. Outside framed vans would be quite rare that late and I doubt that many if any rubbed shoulders with BR diesels - still I do occasionally invoke Rule One. That MR van is the only one on Dock Green.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

What a superb thread this is, the photos are stunning. I hope to bump into this layout at a show one day.

 

John

 

Thanks John. I do always post details of Dock Green's outings. Our next show will be...

 

Railex 2018

 

Stoke Mandeville Stadium, Stadium Approach, Aylesbury, Bucks, HP21 9PP

Saturday 26^th May 10.30-5.30

Sunday 27^th May 10.00-5.00

[bgman]

Thank you for your detailed reply with the photos Chaz, the subject of lighting seems to be a complete art in itself.

 

I discussed this with Dave ( Wenlock ) at the SWAG meet last year when he brought his fantastic Sherton Abbas layout. With such excellent buildings / locos etc beneath a heavy pelmet its one item that really must be worked out at the initial stages I believe, otherwise.....well you know !!!!

 

I also spoke to Gordon and Maggie last year with his superb layout and I think from memory he uses LED lighting ? I stand corrected on that one possibly, but their approach has always been to make everything as lightweight as possible, for many reasons.

 

Cheers for now,

 

Grahame

[The Bigbee Line]

It's always very encouraging when people like yourself are so enthusiastic about the layout. It's not everybody's cup of tea of course - no passenger traffic, no high speeds, no blue diesels (definitely not!) but I do hope visitors to shows see it as a realistic glimpse back to a scruffy bit of London in the fifties and early sixties. And even if they don't the team enjoys playing - they keep coming back for more.

 

DSC_0985-2-1.jpg

 

Neither of these wagons would be around for much longer on BR. Wooden mineral wagons were swept away by the huge number of steel 16 tonners and the last of the pre-grouping outside frame vans would disappear as the BR standard 12T vans took over. Still it's nice to have a bit of variety on the layout.

 

Chaz

Chaz,

 

Nice stock.  Had the unfitted van got a lever on the other side?  Hope it's not an awkward question.

 

Many thanks

 

Ernie

[sb67]

Thanks Chaz, think I might have to evoke rule 1, I like the idea of building some older types of wagons.

Steve. 

[chaz]

Chaz,

 

Nice stock.  Had the unfitted van got a lever on the other side?  Hope it's not an awkward question.

 

Many thanks

 

Ernie

 

 

not in the least. I honestly don't know. looking at the photo it certainly looks like it only has brakes on one side. Whether it has a lever on the other side as I think it should I can't say. You will forgive me if I don't spend the rest of the afternoon unpacking the stored-away layout to find it.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

Thanks Chaz, think I might have to evoke rule 1, I like the idea of building some older types of wagons.

Steve. 

 

Good idea Steve. The trick is not to have too many. If the majority of your stock is to the period you can have the odd anachronism without it destroying the look you want.

 

Chaz

[sb67]

Thanks Chaz, I'll start looking through my books!

Steve

[chaz]

Right then, walls and bridges.

 

I must first go back to beginnings. At this stage the baseboards are made and linked together and most of the track is laid. I used Kappa board to build quick maquettes (rough 3D sketches) of various large features to assess how they would fit in the scenes and what the sightlines would be like. Kappa board cuts easily with a scalpel or Stanley knife, can be glued together with PVA, with dressmakers pins pushed into joins in a dovetail pattern, and is stiff enough to need no support if made up into box shapes.

 

 

The warehouse (at this stage just a large flat) has a vital role to play as a view-blocker. The bridges, apart from being potentially interesting models themselves, are there to divide the scene into smaller areas - rather like large gardens are sometimes divided into smaller "rooms".

 

 

In the view above the bridge closer to the camera is the single track railway that crosses the yard. This was set at an oblique angle to avoid everything looking parallel and at neat right-angles. The further bridge is the big road bridge. I was toying with the idea of including an entrance which would hint at a passenger station behind the warehouse. I later dropped this idea but you can see a mock-up in Kappa board at the back. The arched retaining wall between the two bridges is there to hide the cassette area behind.

 

Quick models of this sort are not essential but they certainly help to plan the look. They can be changed quickly and moved around until they look right and they often reveal problems and mistakes that are not always obvious with paper sketches.

 

The last photo shows the baseboard at the other end of the layout (apologies for the out of focus shot).

 

 

The basic structure of the goods platform is in place, made from Kappa board to keep the weight down. You can see the retaining wall taking shape along the back. A piece of plywood is screwed to the baseboard back and Kappa board wedges support the front face. This will later be covered with embossed brick plastic sheet (S E Finecast - which I believe is vacuum formed) .

 

Chaz

Edited March 29, 2018 by chaz

[keefr2]

Can I ask Chaz, is Kappa board the same as 'foam board'? (i.e. the stuff that is lightweight foam sandwiched between two layers of what I believe to be some kind of paper/card and that can be bought in places like Hobbycraft, rather than 'foamex', the more solid plastic sheet that signwriters use?)

 

Keith

[chaz]

Can I ask Chaz, is Kappa board the same as 'foam board'? (i.e. the stuff that is lightweight foam sandwiched between two layers of what I believe to be some kind of paper/card and that can be bought in places like Hobbycraft, rather than 'foamex', the more solid plastic sheet that signwriters use?)

 

Keith

 

 

Yes, Keith, just so. It's expensive stuff and a reasonable substitute (a free one) would be the corrugated card that packaging is often made from. This is not quite so easy to work with but is perfectly practicable for quick models.