dymstocklr Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I'm trying to set up a typical milk train from the 50s. In terms of quality, how do the Dapol and Hornby offerings compare? Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted July 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2012 I have several of the Dapol version and my only critisism is lack of writing on the solebar.There are probably other faults but they do for my needs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trains&armour Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Definitly Dapol. Both have their good and bad points, But (to me) the most glaring error is on the Hornby one, where the brakes don't line up with the wheels. Sierd Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I don't recall the details but when I was looking to backdate a few to an LNER diagram, the Hornby one was quite clearly the better one to use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalwart Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 My mid-sixties era milk train is formed with both Dapol and Hornby tanks allthough I have quite severely weathered them. I find the Hornby wagons better runners straight from the box, the Dapol offerings needing extra weight and a change of wheels to avoid de-railments on PECO code 100. Appearance wise the Dapol tank is probably better as the Hornby version is I believe the ex Lima one with a visible seam line along the lower edge (hence the heavy weathering!) but the Dapol one has a visible weight under the tank! I don't think either one is particularly brilliant to be honest but with a bit of extra work they certainly look OK behind one of my Hydraulics! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattog Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 All I know is the Dapol are rubbish when reversing over short radius PECO code 100 points. Always derail without fail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 That's likely the wheelsets on the Dapol. At least one batch of these were made with wheels to no recognised standard: cylindrical tyre, perpendicular flange with practically no radius at the root and finishing in a near knife edge, pronounced bevel on the back of the flange. These basically crash along the rails and misbehave regularly on points (even fairly large radius) is my experience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 My personal experience has been that despite its other shortcomings, the Hornby one wins simply because its chassis can have writing applied (I believe that the type of plastic Dapol use for their chassis precludes this). This was far more noticeable to me than the brake shoes not lining up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 The other difference is that the Dapol tanks incorrectly have brakes on the centre axle, while the Hornby ones do not. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dymstocklr Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 Thanks for all the replies guys. Just as a tailpiece to this I ended up with 7 Hornby wagons, mainly from ebay, and then some unpainted Dapol ones came up cheap locally and as I intended to respray the things anyway I went for them as well. Others have pointed out the cosmetic differences between the two, but the difference in running quality was quite staggering. The 7 Hornby wagons, with a GUV attached at the rear, ran perfectly, whereas the same length train of Dapol wagons would scarcely run a few feet without something falling off or coming uncoupled. Having checked the wheels were turning freely and the B to Bs were ok I realised the Horny wagons were noticeably heavier. About 15 grams per wagon in fact. So I added about 12 grams of lead flashing under the Dapol wagons (taking the things apart and putting the weight in the tanks would have been a more elegant solution - but life's too short!) and they now run perfectly. Credit to Hornby I think for recognising the problem and putting, as far as I can tell, some weight in the tanks. Thanks again to everyone for your help. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 At the risk of resurrecting an old controversy, have you tried replacing the Dapol wheels with Hornby ones? There was some comment about the different profile of the Dapol wheelset on here a while ago. My empirical experience consists of building a Dapol brakevan with the supplied wheelsets. It consistently derailed on our club exhibition layout. I replaced the wheelsets with Hornby, making no other change to the wagon and have had no problems since. I chuck or give Dapol wheels away now. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted August 17, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 17, 2012 I too found that by changing the front and rear wheels on the Dapol tanks to Hornby or Bachmann ones (leaving the middle set alone) solved the de-railing problem. I also agree with Jenny that the lack of solebar lettering on the Dapol version does stand out, especially when sen alongside the Hornby offering. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dymstocklr Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 Jonathan Well I can only say that the additional weight has solved the problem and they now run perfectly. I would have thought if there was a problem with the wheels that would not have been the case. These are brand new wagons and the wheelsets look normal to me and they also have modern couplings - unlike an older wagon I have which has wheels with stub axles pressed into a plastic tube and the old style Hornby/Triang coupling. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 I can confirm that the solution to the problem is to chuck the Dapol wheels and fit R8097 Hornby 3 hole 12.5mm wheels. I have had to do this to my milk tankers and they now run fine with no extra weight! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 Interesting, I just rushed out and checked my newish Dapol tanks. Indeed a couple of them can derail while being propelled through some points, specifically a small radius code 100 and a curved turnout which has had the radius reduced. A quick think then I popped out the middle wheelset and no derailments. so the problem lies with the middle wheels. I checked on a flat glass mirror and the wheels line up perfectly so when they cross points some wagons actually balance on the middle wheels. Maybe all that is needed is to provide some vertical play in the middle axle boxes. How would you do that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 81C Posted November 12, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 12, 2016 The flange on the Dapol wheel is very shallow which allow it to ride out of the track on curves all the wheel sets needs swapping for a Hornby or Bachmann one's they have deeper flanges. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 I tried swapping the wheels around they still derailed. I spent 14 on each Dapol tanker and the 10 on Hornby wheels. Annoying but they run absolutely fine now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 Well I think I solved it, hopefully! Easing out the centre axle boxes fixed 5 of my 8 wagons but I was after a cheap fix that worked every time. So I replaced the outer wheels with ones from a Hornby brake van and that worked. It so happens that I have 6 Hornby brake vans and two box vans, all with 3 hole disc wheels. You can't get cheaper than that. The Dapol wheels fit the Hornby stock. ps - Bachmann wheels don't work, the axle bearing cone is a different profile and the wheels are a tight fit in the Dapol tanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 I can confirm that the problem is the Dapol wheel profile. Years ago now (long before Covid) I spoke to a gentleman on the Dapol stand at a big exhibition (probably Allley Pally) about this and he confirmed it saying it was a known problem, and that if I emailed them with my details they would send me a replacement wheel set free of charge. I did and they did. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypherman Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 (edited) Hi all, My personal favourite 6 wheel milk wagon is the Wrenn one. Just like the weight and feel of them. But you can get the Lima one quite cheaply and do it up your self. Edited October 18, 2020 by cypherman 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 The Wrenn one is essentially the Hornby Dublo version from the 1960s with different wheels and couplings, We have a rake of H/D tanks with one Wrenn interloper, H/D couplers throughout and I can never remember one derailing ever in 35 odd years with the weight of the cast chassis giving a low centre of gravity. The lack of fine detail is not noticeable at express speed as they thunder around the layout. Only issue is like the prototype they drag as heavily or more so than a typical carriage. We also have some Lima ones but we keep them well away from the H/D so as not to show up the H/D undersize wheels. Horses for courses, Hornby or Lima for a 8X2 BLT. Wrenn for the main line. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 I recollect my HD one having flangeless centre wheels and DC brakes. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 (edited) Lima wheels are 11.5mm diameter (originally H0 - 1 metre) and Dublo 12mm. Both are too small for milk tanks, which had carriage diameter wheels (14mm). Someone will probably find one with 3 foot diameter wheels now! There were various designs of milk tank so there is no issue with mixing them. The best model probably can be made from the old K's kit, if you can find one! or in a different league http://website.rumneymodels.co.uk/milk-tanks 6 hours ago, Fat Controller said: I recollect my HD one having flangeless centre wheels and DC brakes. I'm not sure about the flangeless wheels, but certainly DC brakes. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143793807604 Edited October 21, 2020 by Il Grifone Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markw Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Il Grifone said: Lima wheels are 11.5mm diameter (originally H0 - 1 metre) and Dublo 12mm. Both are too small for milk tanks, which had carriage diameter wheels (14mm). Someone will probably find one with 3 foot diameter wheels now! There were various designs of milk tank so there is no issue with mixing them. The best model probably can be made from the old K's kit, if you can find one! or in a different league http://website.rumneymodels.co.uk/milk-tanks I'm not sure about the flangeless wheels, but certainly DC brakes. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143793807604 Th GWR and SR used 3'1" wagon wheels on milk tanks, LNER and LMS used larger coach wheels. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D1072 Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 To add to markw's comments - looking at David Larkin's "BR General parcels rolling Stock" (1978), the SR, GWR and BR wheels are 3 hole discs, so the Hornby R8097 are suitable, whereas the coach wheels (3'7" ?) appear to be either solid wheel pans or have small holes in them. Hornby R8234 are this type. The Dublo/Wrenn chassis is GWR, having a Dean Churchward ratchet brake lever on the end and six tank supports. The Lima then Hornby model is also GW, but a later version. Note the angle brackets between the middle J hangers on GW/BR wagons. The Dapol one has its end stanchions overhanging the buffer beams, which all the examples in the Larkin book do. It has a curved brake lever of uncertain parentage. Each of the big four designs uses a different axlebox; all the model versions I have (some of each) have the GW/BR type. GW/BR seem to have six tank supports, ER/MR/SR four ER/MR designs have the diagonal ties attached to the solebar sides, the others on top of the solebar, SR to a vertical plate. W iron tie bars can be flat strip (GW/BR), rod (MR, SR) or none (ER). Then there is the plethora of tank and ladder designs... Dapol model has four securing bands round the tank - these should come out from the tank and attach to the top of the frame or side of solebar. The Lima / Hornby seam can be prototypical for some wagons- there are seams midway down the tank, seams 2/3 down as the model and the three MR 44xxx wagons have clearly got a wrapper over the securing bands. And of course there is one, BR B3198 where no seam is discernable, but it's got both securing bands and extra wrapping bands round the tank ! NB - vehicles numbered W44XXX are MR designs allocated to the WR. I've been deepening Lima bearing holes with a Knowle Wagon Works 2mm drill and installing either 12mm 3 hole discs or coach wheels. Next step is a bit more research (Paul Bartlett's site). I plan to use piano wire for the diagonal ties as they should be straight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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