Grantham - the Streamliner years

[LNER4479]

Aha, so beneath that gruff exterior you do like her really then.

 

Yes more than just an honourable mention to your good lady (and offspring) - even if they didn't know the difference between a brake van and a meat container ( I ask you!) Have fun sorting them all out ...

[LNER4479]

Safely back home and van unloaded for 23:10. Could be worse.

 

Being a man down meant that my cunning plan to do a more comprehensive photo session went for a ball of chalk as I was pretty much flat out all day 'back of house'. So I'm afraid you're limited to just a few from inside the layout. 

 

Move 9-and-three-quarters and Jonathan's exquisite recreation of the LNER's 1938 recreation of  the 1888 'Flying Scotsman' is making its way towards the station. At least one of the scenic improvements can be seen in this shot - can you spot them?(!)

 

At the North End, an Atlantic is in charge of the York/Ripon train

 

Back at the South End  - lousy photo so you'll have to take it from me that this is the first production A3 No.2743 Felstead in charge of the Up Flying Scotsman (sorry - forgot headboard!)

 

And the fastest of them all, recreating THAT day.

 

A huge thanks to the version of 'Team Grantham' that accompanied the layout to Leeds  including new boy Steve (31A) who we seem unable to put off(!) and also the 'other' Barry, our long distance traveller from Reading. Hope we put on a reasonable show in the circumstances. 

Edited October 24, 2021 by LNER4479

[lezz01]

I'm not a great fan of the LNER but I have to say that this layout is just outstanding.

Regards Lez.

[LNER4479]

14 hours ago, OliverBytham said:

Thanks to Graham for taking the time during his hectic MPD-commanding schedule to have a good introductory chat.

 

Ollie

Thanks Ollie for posting those - always nice to see others’ phots of the layout.

 

And great to chat to you on the Saturday. As it turned out, by far the better day for such things. Apologies therefore to those who tried to speak to me yesterday (Sunday) - and there were some(!) - take your eye off the ball at South Fiddle for any more than a few seconds and layout carnage ensues.

 

Quite a few layout improvement shots ‘in the can’ from the weeks leading up to the show so will look to drip feed those through over the next few weeks.

[Dragonboy]

Nice set of pictures Graham as it’s showing different views that us great unwashed don’t get to see.

[John76]

2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Thanks Ollie for posting those - always nice to see others’ phots of the layout.

 

And great to chat to you on the Saturday. As it turned out, by far the better day for such things. Apologies therefore to those who tried to speak to me yesterday (Sunday) - and there were some(!) - take your eye off the ball at South Fiddle for any more than a few seconds and layout carnage ensues.

 

Quite a few layout improvement shots ‘in the can’ from the weeks leading up to the show so will look to drip feed those through over the next few weeks.

 

I watched you for a good 20 minutes at the southern end of the fiddle yard and was fascinated to see how much work was involved to get the trains ready at the 'back of the house'. I could see you were better left alone but watching helped me start to understand how you operate Grantham and get the variety of trains out front. 

 

I really enjoy this element of operating a layout and it is often lacking on others. is there any chance you could share with us what it is you do 'back of the house' and how the fiddle yard operates? What came first, the operating schedule or the fiddle yard? Scenic stuff and authentic trains are great but realistic operation does it for me and Grantham has all three.

 

John

[jwealleans]

I think I can step in and answer that in part as South Fiddle is my usual operating spot.    I can't talk about how the sequence was initially developed, but I have had a hand in refining the way my end of the fiddle yard works in handling it.

 

 

This was taken a number of years ago at Nottingham show but the bones of it were already there.   On the left you can see my operating book.   Each page is one move (there are 30 in the full sequence).   The book shows occupancy for North Fiddle, South Fiddle and the South end sidings (off shot to the left) so you always know what train should be where.    The coloured highlights indicate trains which operate during this move and detailed instructions are written below.  Above is fairly late in the sequence as teak Set 5 (in Road 1, next to the down Main) is in it's third iteration, the 17:40 ex-KX.   I know that because of the clerestory vehicle towards the end.  The very last vehicle is a through carriage for Lincoln which the train will detach at Grantham.   The York-Hornsey ECS is also out in Road 6 (it usually lives in Siding 4). 

 

If I had the book to hand I could tell you what move this is as the Silver Jubilee set is out.    The book will indicate in this instance that the Silver Jubilee departs from Road 8  - as it's not indicated as stopping, it will do two circuits - and then it arrives back to Road 8.   Roads 9 and 10 to the left are used for loose stock - you can see the dyno car for the test train and the BTO-CK twin for Teak set 5 iteration 2.  Other trains use the same roads: the 'Junior Scotsman' set is in Road 5 although it's going to run as a Glasgow - KX next with the loco at the far end.  Road 4 holds the Scarborough Flyer set - the Whitby BC hasn't come back from North End yet - and Road 2 is the Scotch Goods.   Road 3 is used to exchange trains with North Yard (it can be powered from either end) and so is usually empty.

 

The main marshalling is around Teak Set 5, which runs 3 times: as the 13:40, 16:00 and 17:50 off KX (I think).   It usually runs at 10 or 11 cars, but uses 27 vehicles in the course of the sequence.  Only two, the RF and a BTK, run in every combination.

 

This is the sheet I work from:

 

 

 

You can see how many vehicles go in and out of the set at each remarshalling.   In Iteration 1, the XBV is a laundry van taking hotel linen to York.   In Iteration 2, the leading twin was the first purpose built articulated coaching stock in the country.   Iteration 3, as has been mentioned, has a trailing vehicle which is detached.  

 

I've worked out some tricks to speed it all up as we go round the cycle.   The artic twin now lives in the loco spur just out of sight at the bottom of shot, so it's easier to deploy.  Likewise the last 4 vehicles in Iteration 3 now reside in Siding 6, which was empty.   The other change has been, instead of running back into South 1 via the points in the middle of the yard, the train now runs into one of the end sidings and is shunted back into Road 1, being rearranged as it moves.   Generally, if I'm on the ball, I'll have started assembling the rear of the next formation while the current one is round the front.

 

Other sets also change; the Scarborough Flyer set has a BC for Whitby when it runs Up, but then changes to a Down Newcastle and has a couple of bogie vans at the head.    Set 3, the Leeds working, has a Cinema Car attached when running Down.   These are authentic workings taken from the CWNs of the time.  Worth saying that all the vehicles carry correct numbers as well: the Carriage Workings for most of these trains identify specific carriages for specific services.

 

The other thing I've always done (and here I do deviate from the instructions) is that I prepare a set for it's next working as soon as it comes into the yard rather than waiting for the instructions to tell me to do so.   That gives me breathing space to deal with the unexpected, change locos on the trains in the Nottingham yard and occasionally grab a mouthful of tea.    In the picture above, there should already be a C1 on the Flyer and an A4 on the West Riding ready for their next trips.  The loco on Set 5 can't go on until just before it leaves as it fouls anything passing through Road 3.

 

Was there anything else you wanted to know?

 

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by jwealleans

[Mallard60022]

17 hours ago, jwealleans said:

I'm no grass and I shall take to my grave the name of the layout owner who set out the North End passenger sets....

 

It did matter because I had a stream of North End operators asking me where that van was and it was always round the front when they wanted it.

 

I'd like to apologise to any disappointed fans for my absence today - I was struck with a shockingly bad migraine and am only just out of bed - and also record my appreciation of my diamond of a wife who is even now on her way back from Leeds with the stock, having volunteered to go and help break the layout down.

Lighting at the venue by any chance?  Warley used to cause that for many I am told. GWS mate.

[jwealleans]

4 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Warley used to cause that for many I am told.

 

Including me.    Thanks, mate.

[Mallard60022]

5 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

 

Including me.    Thanks, mate.

I am sure I heard somewhere that certain Spec types can assist with that situation? I reckon it was on a BBC Programme Inside Health and was about the problems that certain folk have these days with electronic pulses in all sorts of objects/equipment.

Might be talking out if my #### but maybe worth a poke around J?

[gr.king]

2 hours ago, John76 said:

 

I watched you for a good 20 minutes at the southern end of the fiddle yard and was fascinated to see how much work was involved to get the trains ready at the 'back of the house'. I could see you were better left alone but watching helped me start to understand how you operate Grantham and get the variety of trains out front. 

 

I really enjoy this element of operating a layout and it is often lacking on others. is there any chance you could share with us what it is you do 'back of the house' and how the fiddle yard operates? What came first, the operating schedule or the fiddle yard? Scenic stuff and authentic trains are great but realistic operation does it for me and Grantham has all three.

 

John

 

I understand that preferences vary. If you really enjoy and excel in doing nothing but endlessly re-arrange finescale rolling stock with great care to avoid damage or wear and tear, in a yard devoid of any scenery, trying to ensure (without delay) that everything conforms to the printed instructions, while trains arrive sometimes in multiple or out-of-sequence (or are urgently demanded by impatient "public side" operators) and you are happy to do so with minimal time to get meals, to see the rest of the show or even to watch the scenic side of your own layout, as well as being happy to travel to the show on the previous day to set up over several hours, complete the set up early before opening on the first day of the show, and stay on after closing to carefully re-pack stock, dismantle the layout, load up the van and then drive home, I really think you ought to volunteer - I'd be very happy to just come along with my stock and mostly stand on the public side watching the show, have a natter, wander around, eat, drink, buy my modelling supplies and so on, all at a leisurely pace...

 

4 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

I am sure I heard somewhere that certain Spec types can assist with that situation? I reckon it was on a BBC Programme Inside Health and was about the problems that certain folk have these days with electronic pulses in all sorts of objects/equipment.

Might be talking out if my #### but maybe worth a poke around J?

 

Apart from the genuine stuff there are also a lot of tenuous or not-scientifically-proven claims about "special types" of glasses (£££), so beware. As a no-longer-participating member of a relevant profession I even have doubts about some of the claims and treatments that are now put forward by some of those whose qualifications ought to be something you could rely on.

[Barry O]

Lights at GSAL are nothing like the old lighting at the NEC.. could be JW was missing some of his regular operators..hope you are feeling better JW.

Baz

[John76]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

I think I can step in and answer that in part as South Fiddle is my usual operating spot.    I can't talk about how the sequence was initially developed, but I have had a hand in refining the way my end of the fiddle yard works in handling it.

 

 

This was taken a number of years ago at Nottingham show but the bones of it were already there.   On the left you can see my operating book.   Each page is one move (there are 30 in the full sequence).   The book shows occupancy North Fiddle, South Fiddle and the South end sidings (off shot to the left) so you always know what train should be where.    The coloured highlights indicate trains which operate during this move and detailed instructions are written below.  Above is fairly late in the sequence as teak Set 5 (in Road 1, next to the down Main) is in it's third iteration, the 17:40 ex-KX.   I know that because of the clerestory vehicle towards the end.  The very last vehicle is a through carriage for Lincoln which the train will detach at Grantham.   The York-Hornsey ECS is also out in Road 6 (it usually lives in Siding 4). 

 

If I had the book to hand I could tell you what move this is as the Silver Jubilee set is out.    The book will indicate in this instance that the Silver Jubilee departs from Road 8  - as it's not indicated as stopping, it will do two circuits - and then it arrives back to Road 8.   Roads 9 and 10 to the left are used for loose stock - you can see the dyno car for the test train and the BTO-CK twin for Teak set 5 iteration 2.  Other trains use the same roads: the 'Junior Scotsman' set is in Road 5 although it's going to run as a Glasgow - KX next with the loco at the far end.  Road 4 holds the Scarborough Flyer set - the Whitby BC hasn't come back from North End yet - and Road 2 is the Scotch Goods.   Road 3 is used to exchange trains with North Yard (it can be powered from either end) and so is usually empty.

 

The main marshalling is around Teak Set 5, which runs 3 times: as the 13:40, 16:00 and 17:50 off KX (I think).   It usually runs at 10 or 11 cars, but uses 27 vehicles in the course of the sequence.  Only two, the RF and a BTK, run in every combination.

 

This is the sheet I work from:

 

 

You can see how many vehicles go in and out of the set at each remarshalling.   In Iteration 1, the XBV is a laundry van taking hotel linen to York.   In Iteration 2, the leading twin was the first purpose built articulated coaching stock in the country.   Iteration 3, as has been mentioned, has a trailing vehicle which is detached.  

 

I've worked out some tricks to speed it all up as we go round the cycle.   The artic twin now lives in the loco spur just out of sight at the bottom of shot, so it's easier to deply.  Likewise the last 4 vehicles in Iteration 3 now reside in Siding 6, which was empty.   The other change has been, instead of running back into South 1 via the points in the middle of the yard, the train now runs into one of the end sidings and is shunted back into Road 1, being rearranged as it moves.   Generally, if I'm on the ball, I'll have started assembling the rear of the next formation while the current one is round the front.

 

Other sets also change; the Scarborough Flyer set has a BC for Whitby when it runs Up, but then changes to a Down Newcastle and has a couple of bogie vans at the head.    Set 3, the Leeds working, has a Cinema Car attached when running Down.   These are authentic workings taken from the CWNs of the time.  Worth saying that all the vehicles carry correct numbers as well: the Carriage Workings for most of these trains identify specific carriages for specific services.

 

The other thing I've always done (and here I do deviate from the instructions) is that I prepare a set for it's next working as soon as it comes into the yard rather than waiting for the instructions to tell me to do so.   That gives me breathing space to deal with the unexpected, change locos on the trains in the Nottingham yard and occasionally grab a mouthful of tea.    In the picture above, there should already be a C1 on the Flyer and an A4 on the West Riding ready for their next trips.  The loco on Set 5 can't go on until just before it leaves as it fouls anything passing through Road 3.

 

Was there anything else you wanted to know?

 

 

 

 

Fascinating. Thank you.

 

John

[alexl102]

14 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Move 9-and-three-quarters and Jonathan's exquisite recreation of the LNER's 1938 recreation of  the 1888 'Flying Scotsman' is making its way towards the station. At least one of the scenic improvements can be seen in this shot - can you spot them?(!)

 

I had the pleasure of seeing this layout at Leeds on Saturday. What a stunning piece of work!

I did ask this at the time, but I've forgotten what you said, I'm really sorry: I'm really interested in the rake of Holden 47' coaches and I think there were some 4 wheelers with them too, as above. I understand these were kits - who are they by?

[jwealleans]

The pair of Howldens parked next to the Quint set - was it you asking about those? - are both D189 Luggage Composites, one by D& S, the other Mousa Models (Bill Bedford).  

 

No 4 wheelers to my knowledge but plenty of 6 wheelers.   The ones in view in the 1938 train are a mixture of scratchbuilt and built using Mike Trice 3D printed sides.   Others I know of are mainly D & S.  Mousa (Bill) has done some in resin but I don't believe we use any at shows.   There's a D303 6 wheel van of his runs on a couple of the express sets, but he no longer supplies the kit.

Edited October 25, 2021 by jwealleans

[Tony Wright]

On 24/10/2021 at 19:15, jwealleans said:

I'm no grass and I shall take to my grave the name of the layout owner who set out the North End passenger sets....

 

It did matter because I had a stream of North End operators asking me where that van was and it was always round the front when they wanted it.

 

I'd like to apologise to any disappointed fans for my absence today - I was struck with a shockingly bad migraine and am only just out of bed - and also record my appreciation of my diamond of a wife who is even now on her way back from Leeds with the stock, having volunteered to go and help break the layout down.

I hope you're feeling better, Jonathan,

 

I wished I'd gone to the Leeds Show now on the Sunday. That way I might have been of assistance in operating Grantham's shed (though on past form, perhaps not!), and at least help with the breaking down.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[jwealleans]

Thank you, Tony.   I'm afraid I didn't manage the shot of the K3 I promised.  That was due to be my job on Sunday morning.

 

I can offer this one posed on my layout before coal and weathering.   The one beyond it is an SEF kit, unknown builder but painted by Larry Goddard.

 

 

One of us will have to do the action shot at Doncaster.

 

 

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Might be talking out if my #### but maybe worth a poke around J?

TMI...

[LNER4479]

As already referred to, I was similarly thwarted in my efforts to do any sort of comprehensive photography with my 'proper' camera. However, I did manage the following staged line-up which presented itself:

 

 

 

Grantham - the Streamliner Years. It conjures up images of gleaming A4 pacifics, state-of-the-art high speed rolling stock, apple green and varnished teak. We could airbrush history and just run those trains in a continuous sequence (and - probably - lots of folks might be quite happy at that?). But - for me - as I have got to know the 1930s LNER story as it really was through the project, it is very satisfying that we've now got to the point where we can display at least as many of the 'counterpoint' locos (and stock) which hopefully gives a truer balance to the story - and maybe also makes the streamliners when they DO appear that much more of an event?

 

From left to right:

Rebuilt (superheated) D2 No.3050 (the last-built D2). LRM kit build by myself

Straight running plate D2 No.4325. M&L kit build, most recent addition to fleet, made available through Barry O

D3 (rebuilt from D4 in GNR days) No.4317. M&L kit build, given to me as a D4 which I 'rebuilt' as a D3 (thus replicating history!)

Straight running plate D2 No.4323. M&L kit build by Graeme King

D2 No.4329. LRM kit build by myself

Rebuilt (superheated) D2 No.4327. LRM kit built by Tony Wright (now part of Mark Allatt collection)

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, jwealleans said:

I think I can step in and answer that in part as South Fiddle is my usual operating spot.    I can't talk about how the sequence was initially developed, but I have had a hand in refining the way my end of the fiddle yard works in handling it.

 

 

This was taken a number of years ago at Nottingham show but the bones of it were already there.   On the left you can see my operating book.   Each page is one move (there are 30 in the full sequence).   The book shows occupancy for North Fiddle, South Fiddle and the South end sidings (off shot to the left) so you always know what train should be where.    The coloured highlights indicate trains which operate during this move and detailed instructions are written below.  Above is fairly late in the sequence as teak Set 5 (in Road 1, next to the down Main) is in it's third iteration, the 17:40 ex-KX.   I know that because of the clerestory vehicle towards the end.  The very last vehicle is a through carriage for Lincoln which the train will detach at Grantham.   The York-Hornsey ECS is also out in Road 6 (it usually lives in Siding 4). 

 

If I had the book to hand I could tell you what move this is as the Silver Jubilee set is out.    The book will indicate in this instance that the Silver Jubilee departs from Road 8  - as it's not indicated as stopping, it will do two circuits - and then it arrives back to Road 8.   Roads 9 and 10 to the left are used for loose stock - you can see the dyno car for the test train and the BTO-CK twin for Teak set 5 iteration 2.  Other trains use the same roads: the 'Junior Scotsman' set is in Road 5 although it's going to run as a Glasgow - KX next with the loco at the far end.  Road 4 holds the Scarborough Flyer set - the Whitby BC hasn't come back from North End yet - and Road 2 is the Scotch Goods.   Road 3 is used to exchange trains with North Yard (it can be powered from either end) and so is usually empty.

 

The main marshalling is around Teak Set 5, which runs 3 times: as the 13:40, 16:00 and 17:50 off KX (I think).   It usually runs at 10 or 11 cars, but uses 27 vehicles in the course of the sequence.  Only two, the RF and a BTK, run in every combination.

 

This is the sheet I work from:

 

 

You can see how many vehicles go in and out of the set at each remarshalling.   In Iteration 1, the XBV is a laundry van taking hotel linen to York.   In Iteration 2, the leading twin was the first purpose built articulated coaching stock in the country.   Iteration 3, as has been mentioned, has a trailing vehicle which is detached.  

 

I've worked out some tricks to speed it all up as we go round the cycle.   The artic twin now lives in the loco spur just out of sight at the bottom of shot, so it's easier to deploy.  Likewise the last 4 vehicles in Iteration 3 now reside in Siding 6, which was empty.   The other change has been, instead of running back into South 1 via the points in the middle of the yard, the train now runs into one of the end sidings and is shunted back into Road 1, being rearranged as it moves.   Generally, if I'm on the ball, I'll have started assembling the rear of the next formation while the current one is round the front.

 

Other sets also change; the Scarborough Flyer set has a BC for Whitby when it runs Up, but then changes to a Down Newcastle and has a couple of bogie vans at the head.    Set 3, the Leeds working, has a Cinema Car attached when running Down.   These are authentic workings taken from the CWNs of the time.  Worth saying that all the vehicles carry correct numbers as well: the Carriage Workings for most of these trains identify specific carriages for specific services.

 

The other thing I've always done (and here I do deviate from the instructions) is that I prepare a set for it's next working as soon as it comes into the yard rather than waiting for the instructions to tell me to do so.   That gives me breathing space to deal with the unexpected, change locos on the trains in the Nottingham yard and occasionally grab a mouthful of tea.    In the picture above, there should already be a C1 on the Flyer and an A4 on the West Riding ready for their next trips.  The loco on Set 5 can't go on until just before it leaves as it fouls anything passing through Road 3.

 

Was there anything else you wanted to know?

 

 

 

 

Excuse me while I wipe the drool from my chin.

[jwealleans]

6 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Excuse me while I wipe the drool from my chin.

 

Stop looking at Barry and concentrate on what I've written.

[Barry O]

In reality the fiddle yard operators are the key members of the operations team. Jonathan is always well ahead of the game.. the other "end" can be a bit more fraught as it also involves setting up freight trains as well as passengers sets.and looking after the Nottingham yard.

 

It helps if you know what some of the more exotic teak coaches are.. ( interesting to me as a London Midland Modeller) but, with time you get the hang of them..until someone swaps in new coaches...

 

Baz

[gr.king]

That's a welcome alternative assessment of the tiring job I've often done in that other end of the fiddle yard, at the same time seeing nothing of what's going on in the scenic section, as I've previously been informed that the task was a "doss" compared to the South end...

[grob1234]

Gentlemen, it looks tremendous. What a treat to see the images, and get that real feeling of 1930's elegance.

 

I'm hopeful to be able to see it in the flesh at some point again in the future.

 

Keep up the great work.

 

Tom

[jwealleans]

Oliver, I hope you don't mind my reposting some of your pictures as I've been rereading the last few pages with a clearer head and there are some nice details visible.   As m'learned colleague has observed, those of us in the engine room don't get to see what's happening at the Captain's Table, so we have to rely on pictures.  It would be interesting to see more of the hundreds which must be taken at every show - very few of them ever appear on threads like this.

 

 

This one caught my eye as it shows off my Shotover and the ACFI gear very well.   I recall putting it on a train and thinking 'damn, it's facing the wrong way, the bits won't be visible'.   Obviously I picked the right service without realising as it must have detached at Grantham and is now being turned to return north.   The pump and water heater gear are by NIU Models.  We also had The White Knight by Roy (Mears) which has very similar fittings.

 

 

I like this viewpoint and not just because there are usually plenty of wagons to look at.   Apart from the portrait of Tom Foster's excellent weathering on Galtee More, you can see a couple of the little livery quirks which we all love to go for : Stephenson Clarke wagons in the period where they dropped the well known grey/green and red oxide painting for a more economical all over black and the Rickett and Smith wagons which could be lettered either 'Rickett' or 'Ricketts'.   Ricketts is done with Powsides transfers while the two Rickett wagons are modified Oxford Diecast.   Note the London plank as well, another characterful feature which is easy to do.

 

 

Last one from this viewpoint and one I nearly didn't include, but it's worth pointing up for our benefit.   The wagon behind the J52 and the one above the cab of the B17 are not lettered.   This is because someone has taken the Ambergate empties (the local coal merchant wagons which are tripped on and off scene and appear both full and empty) off the rails in the Fiddle yard and put them back the wrong way round.   They're only lettered on one side because there weren't enough letters on the HMRS sheet to do both.   You have to remember to have the plain side facing in.

 

 

This is Graham's photo and although it's too far away for most to tell, the same applies to the 1938 set.   On the side we see here, which the public don't get to see barring accident they all carry LNER lettering and numbering, so they can be used for something else if required.   The public (ECJS) side is more heavily weathered - it's based on contemporary pictures - and the vehicles are more heavily decorated with crests apparent on most vehicles.

 

 

Some of the scenic development in this picture but it also shows the North End pilot, the J54, either attaching or detaching a van from one of the Up services.   Red Leader will know which one.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by jwealleans