Grantham - the Streamliner years

[TheSignalEngineer]

6 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

https://www.telegraphpoleappreciationsociety.org/

@AY Mod really needs to get a 'Tongue in Cheek'  smiley to add to posts.

 

On a slightly more serious note some of  the tallest poles I ever went up were where the wires needed to cross a road which was crossing the railway. A pole was placed close to each side of the bridge. The policy was to have the bottom arm at least 20 feet above road level. If the railway was level with the surrounding fields this would put the bottom arm somewhere near 40 feet above ground level.

 

13 hours ago, figworthy said:

How long are they prototypically ?  It must have been a bit of a challenge getting long enough lengths of timber, or was there some form of join part way up ?

 

Poles need to be in one piece due to the turning load imposed by the wires especially in crosswinds. This company still supplies poles as they are not only used for phone lines but the biggest market is probably electricity lines in rural areas.

 

https://www.railwaysleepers.com/wooden-poles/new-telegraph-poles

 

The start at  6 metres long and largest they list on the order form is 24 metres long, with a minimum diameter of 200mm at the top tapering to minimum 470mm at 1500mm from the butt.

You wouldn't want to be using many like that as the price is £2992 + VAT, so £3590.40. Delivery to Grantham would cost you and extra £300 + VAT per load.

 

[AY Mod]

6 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

@AY Mod really needs to get a 'Tongue in Cheek'  smiley to add to posts.

 

It would still be lost on some!

 

(Fully paid up TPAS member having had 'Pole of the Month' once - pleased me more than a lot of stuff I have in the mags).

[St Enodoc]

49 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

having had 'Pole of the Month' once

TMI

[AY Mod]

12 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

TMI

 

I'd best not post any images of its magnificence and unusual attributes then.

[MarkC]

3 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

I'd best not post any images of its magnificence and unusual attributes then.

Nurse! The screens!

[TheSignalEngineer]

7 hours ago, AY Mod said:

had 'Pole of the Month' once

I thought of three comments for that but two would definitely got me banned

[TheSignalEngineer]

9 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

I'd best not post any images of its magnificence and unusual attributes then.

I thought it was a hop pole at first.

[AY Mod]

38 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I thought it was a hop pole at first.

 

You've been taking a sneaky look at 'my' pole!! How very dare you? A salutary lesson there about posting pictures of your pole on the internet, it may come back to haunt you.

[TheSignalEngineer]

6 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

A salutary lesson there about posting pictures of your pole on the internet,

The mind boggles.

[Metropolitan H]

On 28/10/2021 at 13:50, lmsforever said:

Seeing the telegraph poles on the layout and the above picture  brings back memories of my time working for GPO telephones in the 1960,s.Going up a really tall pole was a bit unnerving at first but you got used to it the tallest I went up was forty feet unbolting an arm meant leaning back quite a way  the view was good and made up for the long cliimb .

I don't know the location of the picture, but by the look of the bridge over the waterway, my gues is that the bridge was a lifting or swinging type and the waterway was navigable by Norfolk sailing Wherries  other sailing barges like the ones that went inland to the wharf by Peterborough East Station.

 

Regards

Chris H

[Flying Fox 34F]

8 hours ago, Metropolitan H said:

I don't know the location of the picture, but by the look of the bridge over the waterway, my gues is that the bridge was a lifting or swinging type and the waterway was navigable by Norfolk sailing Wherries  other sailing barges like the ones that went inland to the wharf by Peterborough East Station.

 

Regards

Chris H

Chris,

 

Your post has made me go back and look at the Old Photo of the Telegraph Pole again.

I’m wondering if this was taken at East Holmes, next to the Brayford Pool in Lincoln? Perhaps Chris P Bacon has more details?

 

Paul

[Metropolitan H]

Paul,

 

Thanks for that. Looking at https://maps.nls.uk/view/114649053 the Southern corner of Brayford Pool - where it says "Drawbridge" - fits well with the photograph.

 

I'm also rather tickled by the "Holmes Bridge" - Holmes being my family name. But although Great Grandfather worked in New England Loco works and paternal Grandfather was a signal man on the GN / LNER / BR(E), I don't think either of them ever worked in Lincoln. Grandfather retired from Westwood Box not long before the W1 laid on its side at the bottom of the steps to the box.

 

Regards

Chris H

[Flying Fox 34F]

1 minute ago, Metropolitan H said:

Paul,

 

Thanks for that. Looking at https://maps.nls.uk/view/114649053 the Southern corner of Brayford Pool - where it says "Drawbridge" - fits well with the photograph.

 

I'm also rather tickled by the "Holmes Bridge" - Holmes being my family name. But although Great Grandfather worked in New England Loco works and paternal Grandfather was a signal man on the GN / LNER / BR(E), I don't think either of them ever worked in Lincoln. Grandfather retired from Westwood Box not long before the W1 laid on its side at the bottom of the steps to the box.

 

Regards

Chris H

Chris,

 

Holmes Bridge is a good name for a layout!

 

Until recently I was the 4th Generation to work on the ECML in Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire.  My Father was a Fireman/Secondman at New England until it closed. Before then he was at Grantham.

 

Paul

[31A]

1 hour ago, Metropolitan H said:

Paul,

 

Thanks for that. Looking at https://maps.nls.uk/view/114649053 the Southern corner of Brayford Pool - where it says "Drawbridge" - fits well with the photograph.

 

I'm also rather tickled by the "Holmes Bridge" - Holmes being my family name. But although Great Grandfather worked in New England Loco works and paternal Grandfather was a signal man on the GN / LNER / BR(E), I don't think either of them ever worked in Lincoln. Grandfather retired from Westwood Box not long before the W1 laid on its side at the bottom of the steps to the box.

 

Regards

Chris H

 

There's a coincidence, I have (had) relatives on my father's side who were called Holmes, and some of them were signalmen on the GN in Lincolnshire.  I think the last one retired as a messenger at Peterborough North, probably in the 1970s after a lot of the signal boxes had been closed.  My paternal grandfather was also a signalman on the GN, although his name was Pearce, at first in South Yorkshire and later in the London area, finishing as a District Inspector at King's Cross in 1954.  Sadly I didn't really know him as he died in 1959, when I was 2 years old.

 

These pictures show one of them at Greatford box; one of the originals has 1923 written on it.  Don't try this on the ECML these days!  Great Ponton and Claypole were also mentioned.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Flying Fox 34F]

Great pictures of Greatford Box.
 

If I may I’ll explain my family connections to the GNR, LNER, BR, Railtrack and Network Rail at Grantham.

 

My paternal Great Grandfather, Mr Thompson, (I’ll have to look up my family tree documents for his first name), was a P/way Ganger. His stretch of Railway was Barrowby Road to Allington on the Nottingham line. He survived the accident at Peascliffe in the 1930’s when the Passenger train ran into the back of the Ballast Train!  He retired in 1948.

 

My maternal Grandfather, George Stevens finished his career at Bingham Signalbox in 1959. He had started as a Telegraph Lad in the Kings Cross area of Boxes and by 1920, he was a Relief Signalman covering Great Ponton, High Dyke and Stoke Boxes at least. Apparently, he was nearly killed in Stoke Tunnel as this was one of approved routes to Stoke Box from High Dyke Cottages, where he lived at the time.  Eventually, he moved onto the Nottingham line and operated most of the Signalboxes along there.

 

My father joined the Railway at Grantham Shed in its twilight years. He moved to New England in 1962, but as Steam wound down eventually, he transferred back to Grantham as a Guard.  He met my Mother working the class 114 DMU’s to Nottingham Victoria.  She worked in the city and obviously commuted from Bingham 6 days a week.

My father took Redundancy in 1973, on his penultimate day he had to protect his derailed Goods train at Black Carr, Doncaster by running back towards the station as he new an express was due!

He rejoined Railtrack in 1997 as a Gate Keeper at Rolleston. Then trained as a Signalman and worked Staythorpe, Newark Castle, but moved to Immingham West before retiring 13 years ago.
 

Finally, there’s myself. I joined Railtrack in 1999 after leaving the Electricity Distribution sector as a Draughtsman Surveyor.

I originally trained as an Engineering Draughtsman at Aveling Barfords. Ironically, many of the former Grantham Locomen worked there, including my Great Uncle, David (Spav) Thompson. These men all knew my father, so I was made very welcome there.

 

Anyway, my first Signalbox was Ancaster, then Barkston East, followed by Allington, (original Signalbox.) I once managed to shear the Gate Wheel off its axle!!!  The S&T were concerned I might be stronger than they thought!!!!

Next I became a main line Relief covering Claypole, Carlton on Trent, Grassthorpe and Ranskill.  I was also trained on the Emergency Panels for Stoke Junction, Grantham, Newark and Retford.  The other bonus was being rostered as a Pilotman covering from Stoke Junction as far as Loversall Junction.

In 2003 I became a Production Supervisor at Newark Northgate. The job title changed to Mobile Operation Manager and an increase in staff led to the creation of the MOM location at Grantham in 2005, to respond to all the Bridge Strikes!  I finished as a MOM and left NR in September for pastures new.

 

My apologies to Red Leader for diverting the collective attention from extra tall Telegraph Poles!

Normal service can now be resumed on Grantham, The Streamliner Years.

 

Paul

[ROY@34F]

I'm sure I would have known your dad Paul . Was his name Dave Mellors . Sorry if I have got it completely Wrong . I was a cleaner /fireman at Grantham from Aug, '57 to Dec. "63 .

 

Regards , Roy Vinter.

[Flying Fox 34F]

4 minutes ago, ROY@34F said:

I'm sure I would have known your dad Paul . Was his name Dave Mellors . Sorry if I have got it completely Wrong . I was a cleaner /fireman at Grantham from Aug, '57 to Dec. "63 .

 

Regards , Roy Vinter.

Hello Roy,

 

I trust your keeping well?

My father’s name is Brian.  I know he knows you.  When he left the railway in 1973, he started Bus and Coach driving having stints at LRCC with Lou Baldwin and also working for Reliance, (W.J. Simmons).  I know he learn’t to drive buses with GEM out at Colsterworth, whilst still working for BR.

 

Paul

[ROY@34F]

21 hours ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

Hello Roy,

 

I trust your keeping well?

My father’s name is Brian.  I know he knows you.  When he left the railway in 1973, he started Bus and Coach driving having stints at LRCC with Lou Baldwin and also working for Reliance, (W.J. Simmons).  I know he learn’t to drive buses with GEM out at Colsterworth, whilst still working for BR.

 

Paul

Thanks Paul . Sorry I got that wrong . I remember now . I reckon he might have been on a boys day out to Skeggy one sunday . I have a photo somewhere with me , Spike Hughes, Bunt Johnson, Pat Boyle, your Dad, Johnny Johnson, Kieth Yeates and maybe one or two more . I'll see if I can find it .

 

Roy.

[Flying Fox 34F]

Roy,

 

I hope you manage to find the photo.  All the names you recall are familiar to me, but only because Dad has mentioned them when he’s spoken about his time on the Footplate.

 

Paul

[Metropolitan H]

On 30/10/2021 at 14:17, 31A said:

 

There's a coincidence, I have (had) relatives on my father's side who were called Holmes, and some of them were signalmen on the GN in Lincolnshire.  I think the last one retired as a messenger at Peterborough North, probably in the 1970s after a lot of the signal boxes had been closed.  My paternal grandfather was also a signalman on the GN, although his name was Pearce, at first in South Yorkshire and later in the London area, finishing as a District Inspector at King's Cross in 1954.  Sadly I didn't really know him as he died in 1959, when I was 2 years old.

 

These pictures show one of them at Greatford box; one of the originals has 1923 written on it.  Don't try this on the ECML these days!  Great Ponton and Claypole were also mentioned.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I hope LNER4479 will not be too upset by a further related deviation from his main topic, but these Holmes links become ever more fascinating.

 

I don't know whether there are any real links beyond the common surname, but thanks to my father's writings about the family history I do know that my Grandfather - Arthur Alexander Holmes - was born 1889 in Crown Street, New England, the 4th of 6 children.

 

He had a younger brother - Vincent - who according to my Father's notes on the family "....was at first a G.N.R. signalman in Lincolnshire, but later became a ticket collector at Peterborough North, ...... Vincent married late in life; his wife was killed on the M&GN (Midland and Great Northern Railway) line where a path to Paston crossed the railway".

 

The eldest sibling Alice emigrated to South Africa with her husband well before WW1. The second sister Lena worked as a barmaid in the refreshment room at Peterborough North Station; she married Phil Johnson who was a clerk on the Midland Railway.  Arthur's elder brother worked on the Midland at Derby, but died relatively young.

 

The youngest of the 6 siblings "....Clarice was an engine cleaner at New England locomotive depot during World War I. She married an LNER fireman, Frank Trayford, and they had two children, Barbara and John. Frank Trayford became a top grade fireman, sometimes firing the famous down Scotch express goods which ran each evening from New England to York “non-stop”; later he became a driver".

 

Having started on the GNR as a porter at Ferme Park till he was old enough to go for signalman, Grandfather's first boxes were at Finningley (GN / GE Joint) then Laisterdyke. Ho moved to Stanley (Methley Joint) circa 1912 - where my Father was born - before moving the family back to New England - 680 Lincoln Road - by 1925. At Peterborough he first worked on of the boxes in New England yards moving to Peterborough "North Box" circa 1930, with promotion to Crescent Box circa 1935 and a move to Westwood Junction before 1939. He retired from Westwood Junction Box in 1954.

 

I would be interested to know of any more detailed links in the history or related memories and thank you all for your indulgence and forbearance.

 

Regards

Chris H

[31A]

10 hours ago, Metropolitan H said:

I hope LNER4479 will not be too upset by a further related deviation from his main topic, but these Holmes links become ever more fascinating.

 

I don't know whether there are any real links beyond the common surname, but thanks to my father's writings about the family history I do know that my Grandfather - Arthur Alexander Holmes - was born 1889 in Crown Street, New England, the 4th of 6 children.

 

He had a younger brother - Vincent - who according to my Father's notes on the family "....was at first a G.N.R. signalman in Lincolnshire, but later became a ticket collector at Peterborough North, ...... Vincent married late in life; his wife was killed on the M&GN (Midland and Great Northern Railway) line where a path to Paston crossed the railway".

 

The eldest sibling Alice emigrated to South Africa with her husband well before WW1. The second sister Lena worked as a barmaid in the refreshment room at Peterborough North Station; she married Phil Johnson who was a clerk on the Midland Railway.  Arthur's elder brother worked on the Midland at Derby, but died relatively young.

 

The youngest of the 6 siblings "....Clarice was an engine cleaner at New England locomotive depot during World War I. She married an LNER fireman, Frank Trayford, and they had two children, Barbara and John. Frank Trayford became a top grade fireman, sometimes firing the famous down Scotch express goods which ran each evening from New England to York “non-stop”; later he became a driver".

 

Having started on the GNR as a porter at Ferme Park till he was old enough to go for signalman, Grandfather's first boxes were at Finningley (GN / GE Joint) then Laisterdyke. Ho moved to Stanley (Methley Joint) circa 1912 - where my Father was born - before moving the family back to New England - 680 Lincoln Road - by 1925. At Peterborough he first worked on of the boxes in New England yards moving to Peterborough "North Box" circa 1930, with promotion to Crescent Box circa 1935 and a move to Westwood Junction before 1939. He retired from Westwood Junction Box in 1954.

 

I would be interested to know of any more detailed links in the history or related memories and thank you all for your indulgence and forbearance.

 

Regards

Chris H

 

Interesting stuff, Chris.  I'm afraid I don't have much 'family tree' history on my father's side of the family, but could ask my sister who knows more about it than I do.  If I find out more I'll PM you if that's OK, rather than take up more space on Graham's thread?

 

[LNER4479]

No problem - family connections to the GNR / railway in Grantham always interesting and relevant so far as I'm concerned.

 

Meanwhile, any radio silence over the weekend was due to this slight diversion ...

 

Yes, some of us were in 'Team Grantham' mode over the weekend at the rather splendid British Motor Museum at Gaydon for the Great British Model Railway Show. I have to say an excellently organised show - more aimed at families / general enthusiasts (hence us being there!) and very well attended. Rather than going on at length here (as GMRC can be a rather 'marmite' subject), I'll just leave the following link below if you're interested to read further. Meanwhile, some 'serious' modelling to follow here soon ...

 

[chris p bacon]

I am very interested in the posts by @Metropolitan H   @Flying Fox 34F  & @31A 

 

In the GNR society we are always looking for details of those who worked for the GN, Our Chairman and another member Keith Crouter, are on a 2 man mission to fill in the blanks that were created when a Bomb fell on KX and destoyed most of the past empoyee records. So far they have found 10,000+ employees* from family history societies and relatives such as yourselves.  Conversely they may be able to fill in any blanks you may have about your forebears GN employment.  Would it be possible to send me any information you may have so I can forward it.

 

Dave Sutton

GNRS Mem Sec

 

*the 10,000+ is in addition to those we already knew about

 

 

[LNER4479]

OK - now for some 'serious modelling' (ha!)

 

One of the considerations re the appearance of the layout was whether to include the mechanical coaling plant (tower) or not in the depot area. Research showed that it was erected over the winter of 1936 and commissioned in the spring of 1937 - right slap bang in the middle of our 1935-1939 timeframe! Although an attractive / striking feature, several things mitigated against its inclusion, including it being too much of a visual block right at the front of the layout and also the inability to including the adjacent coal wagon tippler arrangement as that was literally right at the edge (ie would be cut off in some sort of bizarre angled cross-section). A solution however was at hand in the form of a single 1936 picture in the Cawston book, which just happens to show the plant in the early stages of construction. So, why not depict it under construction on the model as a sort of half way house? Having left the allocated space as bare board for far too long - cue cameo ...

 

The relevant area of said picture is naughtily included (albeit somewhat blurry) bottom left, together with a BFA 1950 pic which gives an indication of the spacing of the legs. I've gone for three of the legs in existence, with the hole dug for the fourth.

 

For slightly more variety, probably unprototypically, one leg cast and complete (bottom left) and the other two encased in shuttering whilst the concrete is setting. Also quite clear in the 1936 photo is a scaffolding stage for access. According to t'internet, scaffolding had already gone over to metal tubes by the 1930s (I'm sure a suitably qualified expert will be along shortly) so here I'm using straight lengths of galvanised steel wire, with n/s base pad. The pads are soldered on a little way up so as I can drill a 1mm hole in the ply to firmly plant them. I don't trust glue on its own.

 

Now a little more advanced. The steel wire takes solder reasonably easy to ensure further firm fixing (I don't trust glue to hold it, certainly not on a portable layout). Note also the bracing poles at 45degs for added rigidity.

 

Scaffolding structure complete, with the inevitable ladder also soldered on (don't trust glue). This thing is SOLID; it does NOT move around at all!

 

Now with decking, lightly scribed to represent planking.

 

Complete! With additional details added to complete the overall cameo. A temporary shed (Metcalfe) seemed logical to me as a base for the workmen on site.

 

An engineman finds a place for a novel sit down with his 'snap bag' as he awaits his next burst of activity whilst the three workers discuss the next steps ... or perhaps the football / dog-racing  / marrow-growing results? Note tools propped up against the shed wall. The fourth dug hole is embellished with a pile of freshly dug earth, whilst a wheelbarrow and extra planks of wood complete the scene. The former is pinned in place (don't trust glue) but the latter ARE glued down (no choice). All the matey-peeps showed have a pin up their leg to assist permanent fixing to the board. Don't trust glue on its own.

Really needs a small concrete mixer adding - there's room to do so - with bags of cement / sand up against the other side of the shed, suitably covered over.

 

Finally, a picture from the non-public side in the approx orientation of the 1936 pic, albeit different elevation. What it does show up is the work Paul has been doing to decorate the inside facing elevation of the old coaling stage. You never know where that Mr York might plonk down his camera.

 

Much of the above is supposition and probably plain wrong but it's an added item of interest with a real story behind it. Certainly attracted a few comments at Leeds.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by LNER4479

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

OK - now for some 'serious modelling' (ha!)

 

One of the considerations re the appearance of the layout was whether to include the mechanical coaling plant (tower) or not in the depot area. Research showed that it was erected over the winter of 1936 and commissioned in the spring of 1937 - right slap bang in the middle of our 1935-1939 timeframe! Although an attractive / striking feature, several things mitigated against its inclusion, including it being too much of a visual block right at the front of the layout and also the inability to including the adjacent coal wagon tippler arrangement as that was literally right at the edge (ie would be cut off in some sort of bizarre angled cross-section). A solution however was at hand in the form of a single 1936 picture in the Cawston book, which just happens to show the plant in the early stages of construction. So, why not depict it under construction on the model as a sort of half way house? Having left the allocated space as bare board for far too long - cue cameo ...

 

The relevant area of said picture is naughtily included (albeit somewhat blurry) bottom left, together with a BFA 1950 pic which gives an indication of the spacing of the legs. I've gone for three of the legs in existence, with the hole dug for the fourth.

 

For slightly more variety, probably unprototypically, one leg cast and complete (bottom left) and the other two encased in shuttering whilst the concrete is setting. Also quite clear in the 1936 photo is a scaffolding stage for access. According to t'internet, scaffolding had already gone over to metal tubes by the 1930s (I'm sure a suitably qualified expert will be along shortly) so here I'm using straight lengths of galvanised steel wire, with n/s base pad. The pads are soldered on a little way up so as I can drill a 1mm hole in the ply to firmly plant them. I don't trust glue on its own.

 

Now a little more advanced. The steel wire takes solder reasonably easy to ensure further firm fixing (I don't trust glue to hold it, certainly not on a portable layout). Note also the bracing poles at 45degs for added rigidity.

 

Scaffolding structure complete, with the inevitable ladder also soldered on (don't trust glue). This thing is SOLID; it does NOT move around at all!

 

Now with decking, lightly scribed to represent planking.

 

Complete! With additional details added to complete the overall cameo. A temporary shed (Metcalfe) seemed logical to me as a base for the workmen on site.

 

An engineman finds a place for a novel sit down with his 'snap bag' as he awaits his next burst of activity whilst the three workers discuss the next steps ... or perhaps the football / dog-racing  / marrow-growing results? Note tools propped up against the shed wall. The fourth dug hole is embellished with a pile of freshly dug earth, whilst a wheelbarrow and extra planks of wood complete the scene. The former is pinned in place (don't trust glue) but the latter ARE glued down (no choice). All the matey-peeps showed have a pin up their leg to assist permanent fixing to the board. Don't trust glue on its own.

Really needs a small concrete mixer adding - there's room to do so - with bags of cement / sand up against the other side of the shed, suitably covered over.

 

Finally, a picture from the non-public side in the approx orientation of the 1936 pic, albeit different elevation. What it does show up is the work Paul has been doing to decorate the inside facing elevation of the old coaling stage. You never know where that Mr York might plonk down his camera.

 

Much of the above is supposition and probably plain wrong but it's an added item of interest with a real story behind it. Certainly attracted a few comments at Leeds.

 

 

When I saw the second photo I thought you were going to build the thing from Bayko.