RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 12, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 12, 2012 I think you can easily afford to take a different approach in some smaller concerns - but an awful lot depends on having the right sort of management approach and care about the job as much as the results. In my final big railway post I had a very small team which was, in all truth, highly dedicated to getting the job done and getting it done well. Individual reward was not easy even in the privytised railway although some did get an occasional small bonus but that was hardly recompense for brain draining work over - often - long hours with a less than reliable and work losing I.T. But they knocked out the work to a high standard (it was no good if it wasn't to that standard) but the only 'reward' they could be given was flexibility about hours whenever that was possible plus making sure they attended as many relevant meetings as possible (which meant trips to the mainland in some cases). It's not all about money and good people aren't necessarily kept onboard just because of it (as long as they've got enough of course). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Well they seem to about the Plod (and other public services) dont they? Well, some do (and presumably you expected that when you signed up to such a high profile occupation). But many of us keep our pontifications to ourselves (and I speak as someone who generally has great respect for the police - except on the odd occasions when they do something to undermine it). So why does it follow that we should all have our personal business laid bare? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohmisterporter Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Well they seem to about the Plod (and other public services) dont they? The "public" only seem to be bothered by what they read in the tabloids; which have an interest in skewing facts to support their own agenda. Same thing with public occupational pensions, they love to give the impression we are all Sir Humphreys and bleeding the country dry. Nothing could be further from the truth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutting42 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 A very interesting discussion. I have worked since I was 19 in the private sector for a US owned publicly quoted company. Salaries are certainly in the secret category but there is no massive campaign to penalise anyone who chooses to disclose their salary. I have heard many people say what they earn and mostly they overstate it - either through embarrassment or desire to increase their perceived worth. I have no problem with disclosing my salary to a friend (but not publicly) but do not as I am never asked also it can be seen as bragging if you are fortunate enough to earn over average. In my experience in both public and private sectors all jobs have a pay band say from 20k to 30k and that band is further divided into quartiles. You are usually placed in the lowest quartile initially and can, through hard work, aptitude and success get progressed to the second and then maybe the third quartile. This can take just a year but more likely it will take 2 to 3 years. It is rare to reach the last quartile as most people would be promoted to a higher pay band which could be 25k to 35k before they reach that level. You will notice that the pay bands overlap and this is very common so you might get a very similar pay despite being in a different (better) job but instead of being in the third quartile you would now be in the first quartile and much more likely to climb the ladder again. People in the last quartile would be people who did not want to be promoted to management for example and stayed in a "hand on style job and have been there for many years and could be regarded as the top technical grade but they would still be in the last quartile and as such unlikely to see pay grade promotions. All this does vary with companies and the public sector is even more rule bound but often they have some pay band flexibility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neil Posted July 12, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 12, 2012 Wached an interesting programme about the "Pimlico Plumbers" company and an experiment in which most of the workers revealed how much or little they earned. It should be available on 4OD. I'd be interested to know other's views on this, but please don't get into politics. Ed We seem (and I'm as guilty as the next man) of collectively making an association between earnings and worth as a person in the broadest meaning of the word, yet if we were asked what we valued about our friends I doubt that their income would get a look in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Of the many and varied jobs I have had this one (teaching) is the only one where my reward for nearly 30 years effort has been a paycut. Not unusual, my wife has had to take two 10% cuts and a 5% increase in pension contributions. I think many other people in private industry have had "real" cuts or effective pay freeze. The problem in the past has been that the public services have got away without having to take such measures. Now they do they think they should get some special treatment. Of course it is hard for anyone. My wife probably pays enough in tax to pay at least a teacher's salary but a drop in her salary of 10% means that she is paying 10% less tax in that year so there is 10% less in the pot to pay that teacher. Or am I misunderstanding basic economics? The key word here is need. Yes, I am aware the persons you mentioned technically do have access to that data, but to those it's purely data, just numbers even. I do work for a large company (I have some 30,000 colleagues ) so none of the individuals above can connect me to the numbers. Much of the payment system is highly automated these days, so the figures whizz by on their screens in rapid succession, too fast for them to make any sense. The bank I use for my salary is not the same as for the mortgage, so that's not connected either The last time I applied for a mortgage or credit card I had to complete a form on which I declared my income - and that included all income, not just salary. The point I was trying to make is that your income is not as hidden as you may think. Many have access to it, though,true, they may have to jump through a few hoops to find it. But public it is not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Collier Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 The Royal Mail pays a set salary for all delivery staff throughout the country (IIRC London get a bit more). It doesn't matter how good/bad you are. Trouble is (and I've just checked this on the BBC website) the average house price int' north is £137,188 whilst down south it is £260,030. I stand to be corrected but it also appears supermarket pricing policy reflects this so your salary may be the same but vary greatly in what you can actually get with it. Maybe I should get the innoculations, buy some wellies and thermals and move up country Gareth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted July 12, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 12, 2012 Even in Graded jobs on the Railway there can be rather large differences in actual earnings.....All depends on whether you actually have a life or not I guess One year I earnt something like 50% of my basic as RDW / OT....like I said it depends if you have a life or not!! The railway is a hotbed of "such and such companys drivers earn this much" its even posted in the aslef noticeboard the different rates of pay between companies, thankfully im at one not too far from the top end of the list, it does seem to be the usual talking point when you walk into Any mess room (that and sex!!) The end of the day we all go to work to pay the bills, if you are doing it purely for the love of it then i salute you, much as i love my job im with a company that i know i can rely on to pay me every month to keep a roof over my head, the downside being i have to travel 60 miles to work a day, i recently turned down a job i was offered (despite not actually applying to them) which would have meant i would have worked from home with my own van and get to drive things like 47, 56 and 66 again (im sure you can work out who it was!) but it was a £5k paycut but with the opportunity to cane the overtime, which i have done in the past, but as mickey said you have no life outside of work and at the moment im more than happy working for a passenger toc as i is more secure, but never say never, watch this space as they say! As it stands now i rarely work rest days and try to throw my sundays in as i can more than get by on my basic every month, rest days are to pay for "toys" as such! As for what i earn, thats for me to know (and you to find out from the notice case!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Good post there Jim.... privatisation has certainly done wonders for Driver's wages in general, although I think it has brought some division amongst the ranks at the same time (usually down to jealousy and disatisfaction, but that's life), as different TOCs pay different amounts. There was a time not so long ago when I caned the overtime, I found it very easy working rest days and still managed to have a good deal of time off where it was needed, and it didn't affect my sleep patterns our general health one bit. Then the recession arrived, work dropped off here and there and I found I was enjoying (and appreciating) my time off all the more and still payed the bills as usual. Like you, I'm probably nearer the top than the bottom, but I don't feel the need to change companies just to earn more money or get a change in working conditions etc, I count myself very lucky to be happy where I am. I know some who've moved to passenger companies for those reasons and regretted it very soon after, once they'd realised what a vipers nest they'd found themselves mired in (obviously I should add that not all passenger companies are like that). My younger brother is a case in point, he's on a (much) higher wack than me and works less hours and better shift patterns thanks to the passenger company he works for being taken under someone esle's wing fairly recently, but several times he's intimated to me that he wants to move... through no fault of his own his health suffered at one point and a stubborness from those further up the food chain made things worse for a while. Added to that is the fact that a large chunk of the extra money he earns is eaten away by his journey to work on certain shifts, so I guess it's all swings and roundabouts really. It's a grand job and we're lucky to be doing something we enjoy probably 99% of the time, but the grass isn't always greener Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 However much I earn, I always end up with bu66er all by the end of the month. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 However much I earn, I always end up with bu66er all by the end of the month. "Money talks, so they say, but mine only seems to say 'Goodbye!' " Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 "Money talks, so they say, but mine only seems to say 'Goodbye!' " You're lucky. I don't even get a goodbye. It just ups and leaves my account without me noticing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 12, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 12, 2012 Not unusual, my wife has had to take two 10% cuts and a 5% increase in pension contributions. I think many other people in private industry have had "real" cuts or effective pay freeze. The problem in the past has been that the public services have got away without having to take such measures. Now they do they think they should get some special treatment. Of course it is hard for anyone. My wife probably pays enough in tax to pay at least a teacher's salary but a drop in her salary of 10% means that she is paying 10% less tax in that year so there is 10% less in the pot to pay that teacher. Or am I misunderstanding basic economics? The state sector wasn't always rosy - on BR we went through several years of what amounted to pay freeze because our basic salary increases were at or below the level of inflation, and even in the best times we often barely beat inflation. None of that was much good when some of us were not paid any more than our basic salary - however many hours we worked. The only way to get any decent improvement was to get promotion although often that meant moving. Similarly at one time my pension contributions were 12% of salary but we were different from most govt/local govt employees in that we had a pension fund whose trustees decided the level of contributions, whatever we happened to think. It is an unavoidable fact that the present financial position of both Govt and country means an increase in pension contributions although some people seem to be unable to understand this. Well in a proper pension scheme we were used to it - our contribution rates reflected the financial health of the fund and went up or down as a result, simple fact of everyday life for us and one that folk need to get used to (mind you I would say that as nowadays I'm on the receiving end of the pension fund's labours but my fund too has had to increase its contribution level in the past year). With pensions there is a very simple financial fact - if you want a decent one you have to pay for it. The last time I applied for a mortgage or credit card I had to complete a form on which I declared my income - and that included all income, not just salary. So did I, it's just that I had to be rather 'creative' because of the crazy box-ticking manner in which things like mortgages are arranged nowadays. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Hi In Sweden all salaries are a matter of public record and anyone can see what people earn. Their society has not fallen apart because of it. Employers do not want you to make it public, because then they would have to account for the very poor or high wages some people earn. Many Employees do not want to reveal their pay because they feel they are overpaid or that others knowing would impact on there future pay rises. Many employees want to know what others earn because they feel undervalued. All employees think they do a better job than the person stood next to them. This probably adds little to the discussion, but as I don't post here often, its my view and only my view for what it is worth. Yes they are general statements and not aimed at anyone or any group, so please don't argue the toss over them, it is just an opinion. Regards Kal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 You're lucky. I don't even get a goodbye. It just ups and leaves my account without me noticing. LOL! And I wish I could say it was due to boxshifter pre-orders that I'd forgotten about! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod5 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 However much I earn, I always end up with bu66er all by the end of the month. As they say (whoever they are) there is always too much month left at the end of the money! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted July 12, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 12, 2012 There was a time not so long ago when I caned the overtime, I found it very easy working rest days and still managed to have a good deal of time off where it was needed, and it didn't affect my sleep patterns our general health one bit. Then the recession arrived, work dropped off here and there and I found I was enjoying (and appreciating) my time off all the more and still payed the bills as usual. I don't feel the need to change companies just to earn more money or get a change in working conditions etc, I count myself very lucky to be happy where I am. I know some who've moved to passenger companies for those reasons and regretted it very soon after it was a similar situation with fastline, loads of overtime but but also loads of time off and decent shift patterns, i maintain to this day that fastline has been my most enjoyable work on the railway to date. i also always said i'd never go back to passenger work unless i really had to, then BANG! i had to, but now im here and happy doing it i'd have to think long and hard about whether i'd take the chance on freight even if "an offer i couldn't refuse" came along, but who knows whats round the corner? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Jeez come on did no one (adopting a Sun readers stance - which I don't read anyway) notice how much the "engineers" got paid - no wonder getting a boy out to clear the bog costs so much Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 By all means have somebody independent monitoring salary fairness but our (public sector) company is about to have to publish the salaries of all staff earning over a certain amount so no doubt that will get picked over in the press and forums about how much people are worth. I don't really see how that is going to make pay arrangements any fairer nor lead to greater taxpayer value. We can opt out of having our names published but not job descriptions so it will be relatively easy to work out who gets what. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I always thought it crass to discuss one's pay. According to that pay list that came out of the tax office, last year I was in the third highest paying job category in the UK........Bull....., it reckoned doctors and judges were paid less....I think not, just that theirs is hidden in the cayman isles or wherever. Still this year I'm on jobseekers - I now get 10p every 2 weeks as I've done a bit of freelance (I kid you not) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 http://youtu.be/gXuRvthgn4U Cream however is readily available at Boot's Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted July 12, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 12, 2012 As they say (whoever they are) there is always too much month left at the end of the money! You see? I told you the Mods really are human! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debs. Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Jeez come on did no one (adopting a Sun readers stance - which I don't read anyway) notice how much the "engineers" got paid - no wonder getting a boy out to clear the bog costs so much Yes, I did spot one (somewhat coy) plumber-chap pinning a card with £180K to the salary revelation board!!!!!! ........along with the scrawled comment: "not incl. bonus" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Jeez come on did no one (adopting a Sun readers stance - which I don't read anyway) notice how much the "engineers" got paid - no wonder getting a boy out to clear the bog costs so much I was invited to visit some people once who lived in Vancouver. The house was in a very exclusive district to the north of the city I was informed that only doctors, lawyers and heating engineeers could afford a house in the area. They were in the last category. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 12, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 12, 2012 Yes, I did spot one (somewhat coy) plumber-chap pinning a card with £180K to the salary revelation board!!!!!! ........along with the scrawled comment: "not incl. bonus" that was probably only the quote ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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