Is it necessary to laminate plasticard for building structures?

[Karhedron]

I recently picked up a copy of Paul Bason's book on scratchbuilding buildings. In it he recommends making building structures from 2 laminates of 20 thou plasticard faced with a 3rd layer of plasticard which has the relief on it (e.g. brick etc).

 

Now this seems incredibly labour intensive as it means you have to cut out each part of the building 3 times. I have seen other model makers recommend laminating in this way and I would like to understand why.

 

Is 2 laminates of 20 thou stronger than a single sheet at 40 thou? Is it simply that the thinner sheets are much easier to cut accurately?

 

With the availability of accurate laser cutting, is there any reason not to make structures out of a single, thicker sheet (apart from the cost of such services)?

[chris p bacon]

I've had a few problems with warping on some laminations i have done, I am moving over to either foamboard or 2mm MDF (both faced with slaters)

[roundhouse]

Cutting thinner material is much easier. Howeve,r laminating plastic does reduce warping, and the more layers the better.

Some of my laminated buildings are over 18 years old with one or two approaching 30 years and there is very little or no warping in them. Anything that is single layer hadn't lasted as well or has had to be replaced

I gather it is to do with the adhesives and solvents that cause the warping but multiple layers reduce the effect.

 

 

Ian

[Campaman]

Odd numbers of laminating to stop warping, plywood is the same, and being a card modeller the same applies there, even down to sticking on a brickpaper.

 

If I am using just single thickness card I also stick an equal thickness of either printed or plain paper on the other side, and I think this can also apply to thin plastic when painting, paint both sides to stop warping = odd number of laminates (paint,plastic,paint)

[Eggesford box]

And where possible leave your laminated walls under pressure such as under a couple of books overnight (or overday if you work shifts!)

[sulzer27jd]

I've had a few problems with warping on some laminations i have done, I am moving over to either foamboard or 2mm MDF (both faced with slaters)

 

Dave what do you use to stick the Slaters to the foamboard?

 

John

[chris p bacon]

Dave what do you use to stick the Slaters to the foamboard?

 

John

 

I'm trying a few alternatives on some samples, so far UHU has come out the best for me, I have tried a contact adhesive which works fine, but if you don't get it right first time forget trying to salvage it !

 

I have also thought of copydex for large areas but haven't tried it yet.

[Oldddudders]

Copydex and PVA have both worked for me. As with extruded polystyrene, solvent-free is important.

[Adam]

Having tried the lamination approach - an been notably unsuccessful - I've long since settled for 60 thou' plastic with detail glued on top. Yes, it is harder to cut, but I've had no trouble with warping even with buildings approaching 15 years old. The club layout has a number of structures perhaps 35-40 years old which seem to be surviving quite well built on similar principles.

 

Adam

[dave_long]

 

 

Dave what do you use to stick the Slaters to the foamboard?

 

John

 

You can avoid glue too if you want and use double sided tape. Jsw has done that on New street and I've done it too and it works well.

 

Hth

[Guest Celticwardog]

2 layers and the out skin does seem much to me, unless of course what you were building was particularly large. For most things I find the basic structure is fine in 40 thou then overlayed with the embossed brick (South Eastern Finecast) if its being used. Yes 40 is a bit much to cut all the way through, but then you don't need to, score and snap works fine.

 

Again if you were building something particulary big I could see the need for extra thickness. other than that some internal bracing would be enough.

[allan downes]

I recently picked up a copy of Paul Bason's book on scratchbuilding buildings. In it he recommends making building structures from 2 laminates of 20 thou plasticard faced with a 3rd layer of plasticard which has the relief on it (e.g. brick etc).

 

Now this seems incredibly labour intensive as it means you have to cut out each part of the building 3 times. I have seen other model makers recommend laminating in this way and I would like to understand why.

 

Is 2 laminates of 20 thou stronger than a single sheet at 40 thou? Is it simply that the thinner sheets are much easier to cut accurately?

 

With the availability of accurate laser cutting, is there any reason not to make structures out of a single, thicker sheet (apart from the cost of such services)?

 

One question, many answers !

 

The trick I find with laminating is however thick the surface layer is, at least double it for the backing layer and, even then, brace it well - but extra work and something you don't want when up against a deadline !

 

Now it's known that while any building of mine isn't necessarily a work of art, it is on the other hand, overengineered,exhibition proof and unburstable !

 

So, no matter what the facing layer is made of, or how thick it is, I ALWAYS back it with a minum thickness of two mil card and, if it's a large building,  backed up further by interior bracing - and even 6/12mm MDF !!

 

Below is an engine shed. It is over 4ft long and can be lifted from one end without the slightest of sag and that's because the building is a virtual box made of 12mm MDF then covered in brickpaper and had it been covered in plastic brickwork insread, the results would have been just the same - a rigid unbendable building because no lamination on earth is going to warp 12 mm MDF !

 

[Gravy Train]

Hi if I may give my two penny worth.

I would Allways avoid laminating we're ever possible, the reason is that most plastic has a grain in it that the eye cannot see and so cannot treat it in the same way As plywood.

I make my wall sections as a shell which is fad more rigid/ robust than 4 pieces of shall we say 60 thou laminated together.

The wall sections for example can be two sheets of 40 thou with something like 60 thou micro strip fixed to the outer edges and vertical at set spaces along the wall section then the two pieces of plastic then fixed together with liquid poly as poly keeps wet for longer whilst fixing together.

Having constructed buildings for over 20 years I have found no better way to ensure a none warping structure and it is important to put small holes on the inside of the wall structure to help it to breath as its the fumes from the solvents that can cause warping.

For larger structures I use mdf and fix a plastic outer with b&q none solvent adhesive.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Peter

[allan downes]

Hi Peter, always great to hear from you and, like me, you don't build for to-day, you build for eternity ! How's the hernia by the way?!!!!!!!!

 

Cheers Mate.

Allan.

[RandyWales]

You can avoid glue too if you want and use double sided tape. Jsw has done that on New street and I've done it too and it works well.

Hth

I've also been using doublesided tape to stick 7mm Slaters card to foamboard...it's a really strong brand bought from B&Q I think.

I first used it a few years back for my microlayout, and it's still stuck fast, even after enduring the summer heat in the loft.

 

Hence I've used this method on my new 7mm layout.

Randall

[Jamiel]

It does seem that there are lots of answers to this question. Here is my method for buildings.

 

Thin plywood, from the aircraft section of many modelling shops (1.5 - 2.5mm - or the imperial equivalent) with brick card stuck on with EvoStick Solvent Free (which is very close to Copydex). You do need to use a chisel to knock through the window holes, but you can make them a bit bigger than needed and then work with plasticard to form the recess.

It does make for a slow start to each building, but I have dropped them when modelling with no harm. Plywood itself is a laminate, with the wood grain running in different directions which prevents warping, and the added plastic also makes it stronger. The solvent free glue can be a bit stringy, so when I have made the basic structure,  run my nail along the edges to pull out unwanted glue that has squeezed out.

Here is a picture of my daughter showing how solid the buildings can be.

 

There are a few examples of the buildings I have made, and step by step on the construction on my Ellerby thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/53110-ellerby/page-6

 

The strength of this construction does allow buildings to be re-worked during construction with hacksaws and a Dremmel if needed (useful considering some revisions I have made). I have only been making buildings for a couple of years, so long term warping may not have taken hold, but I haven't seen any sign of it with this method.

I hope that helps, but probably just gives yet another option to be puzzled by.

 

Good luck.

 

Jamie

 

[allan downes]

Not a laminated daughter surely !

 

Cheers.

Allan.

[Jamiel]

Only after she's eaten ice cream, she get well laminated then. :-)

[allan downes]

When my daughter was about  three/four and I was half way through building that cathedral, she came into my workshop stroking a dead mole "Look daddy, can I keep it as a pet ?" well up to speed with kids logic I replied "But it's dead angel" and then she cornered me with "Yes, but that's all that's wrong with it"

 

I burried it that night while she was asleep.

[iL Dottore]

Having tried various approaches to constructing buildings, I'm still undecided about using laminations....

 

Of the various buildings I've made, the one that had the fewest construction problems (and is probably the most robust  of my model buildings as well) has to be the Oldbury Road* building I constructed for BCB. I built a 3.2mm x 3.2mm plastic strut framework, placed a 60 thou plasticard shell around the frame upon which SEF embossed brick was glued. As for various reasons there was at least 1 week between each stage of assembly, any solvents had fully evaporated by the next stage of construction. The finished model was very robust and warp free.

 

I'm not sure what my next build will be after the OBL pub, but if at all feasible I'll use the frame and 2 layer covering approach (I don't think that this approach would work on all structures equally well)

 

iD

 

*as described in detail in this month's BRM (shameless plug)

[DonB]

Having tried various approaches to constructing buildings, I'm still undecided about using laminations....

 

Of the various buildings I've made, the one that had the fewest construction problems (and is probably the most robust  of my model buildings as well) has to be the Oldbury Road* building I constructed for BCB. I built a 3.2mm x 3.2mm plastic strut framework, placed a 60 thou plasticard shell around the frame upon which SEF embossed brick was glued. As for various reasons there was at least 1 week between each stage of assembly, any solvents had fully evaporated by the next stage of construction. The finished model was very robust and warp free.

 

I'm not sure what my next build will be after the OBL pub, but if at all feasible I'll use the frame and 2 layer covering approach (I don't think that this approach would work on all structures equally well)

 

iD

 

*as described in detail in this month's BRM (shameless plug)

Do I have to buy the Mag. to discover your preferred glue for Plasticard to embossed brickwork?? 

[Clive Mortimore]

I have been  making plastic card buildings for over 30 years and still do not know if it worth laminating or not.

 

Laminated buildings have and have not warped.

Non laminated buildings have and have not warped.

Buildings with bracing have gone wibbly wobbly showing where the bracing is, others have not.

 

I do these days tend to use 40 thou as a backing to Slaters embossed plastic card. The Wills stuff is too small for many buildings and too thick to cut easily.

 

I do put interior wall which act as bracing,especially if the building is going to be lit and the inside be seen.

[allan downes]

I used to work to an unwritten rule - the larger the buiding, the thicker the carcass, the need for more bracing - even a lamphut required considerations - a ceiling plate and a floor plate with a base material thickness of 1mm plus thickness of corrugated sheeting.Nothing worse than having to pull a building apart because you went 'cheap' on the superstructure - I know, I've done it !

 

Allan.

[iL Dottore]

Do I have to buy the Mag. to discover your preferred glue for Plasticard to embossed brickwork?? 

No, 'cos I didn't specifically describe how I glued the SEF embossed sheet to the shell in the article,

 

But as you asked so nicely....

 

I usually use a mixture of Tamiya or Revell Liquid Cement thinned with MekPak which I apply to the shell with a large brush, the SEF embossed sheet is attached and clamped/weighted down (whatever works best) until dry. Then, before cutting out window and door apertures in the embossed plastic, I run brushfulls of MekPak along all exposed Shell/Embossed card interfaces and joins (and then let dry.....).

 

By mixing liquid cement with MekPak you can control the amount of grip vs the speed of the plastic weld you want (i.e. MekPak welds fast, but has little "grabbing" power; whereas liquid cement has plenty of sticky "grabbing" power, but is not fast setting). I also leave (originally by circumstance, now deliberately) at least 3 days between gluing sessions - as this allows for a set and solid join and pretty much complete solvent evaporation (minimising future problems caused by accumulated solvent fumes).

 

iD