RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted July 22, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 22, 2012 A wish of mine for some time has been to see these produced in r-t-r form,both body shapes ,1947 to 1958. Am I being unrealistic or are there others like me out there ? I'd be interested in comments and ideas on this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 or even a Bulleid Merchant Navy? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34010-34005 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Farish are doing three of them ?soon? in 2mm original form. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted July 22, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 22, 2012 or even a Bulleid Merchant Navy? Thank you for your scholarly correction of my geriatric spelling,since corrected. Perhaps now you would be kind enough to express your views on the subject. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pondy Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I was just about to put that I would buy one but the market would be a bit limited because they were only ever seen in one livery. How wrong can I be? It was the late 50s when they were re-built and so were under British Railways ownership for a good 10 years and at least one recived experimental blue paint so thats at least 3 liverys plus various experimental tenders so there was quite a variety. I'm sure the market would be vastley bigger if one of the 12'' to the foot scale was back dated. Anyway put me down for 3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormbringer Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 If my sources are correct then 21C1 to 8 were turned out new in Malachite green before getting wartime black. 21C9 thru 20 were in Black from new. With Brunswick Green and experimental blue you have 4 different liveries. And yes I'd have one (or 2) in Brunswick Green. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted July 22, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 22, 2012 All but 3 carried B.R. blue livery for periods of up to 5 years in the early 50's. Not,incidentally,the so-called 'experimental blue' but the blue applied to all 8P locos (and some Gresley A3's). The best point of reference is The Bulleid Society website for all dates of construction,liveries and rebuilds. Also,sadly,dates of withdrawal and where and when 'disposed of'. The last two to be rebuilt -in 1959-were 35003 and 35009. I fondly remember a return trip behind 'Royal Mail' between Yeovil Junction and Salisbury in August 1958.--up Exeter-Waterloo & down Waterloo-Exeter semi-fast. She was then a 72A (Exmouth Junction loco).Come on Bachmann ,please do it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted July 22, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 22, 2012 The last two to be rebuilt -in 1959-were 35003 and 35009. Actually the last two to be rebuilt were 35006 and 35028 in October 1959. 35003 was rebuilt in August 1959 and 35009 in March 1957. 35028 has fond memories for me as it was the last of the 30 Merchant Navies to be underlined in my Ian Allan as it had been hiding away on the Eastern Section for quite a while! I would certainly buy a couple in Brunswick green livery if they are produced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted July 22, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 22, 2012 Actually the last two to be rebuilt were 35006 and 35028 in October 1959. 35003 was rebuilt in August 1959 and 35009 in March 1957. 35028 has fond memories for me as it was the last of the 30 Merchant Navies to be underlined in my Ian Allan as it had been hiding away on the Eastern Section for quite a while! I would certainly buy a couple in Brunswick green livery if they are produced. I stand corrected--my last M.N. to be'copped' was 35018-the first to be rebuilt- Salibury 1958-same day that i had the abovementioned journey behind unrebuilt 35003 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paftrain Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 A wish of mine for some time has been to see these produced in r-t-r form,both body shapes ,1947 to 1958. Am I being unrealistic or are there others like me out there ? I'd be interested in comments and ideas on this. Yes yes yes!I've been asking Hornby to do this for years to no avail. Now they've realised there are lots of us modelling the Southern perhaps they will re-consider it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrobuscp Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I think I'd be up for buying one of these, I'm actually slightly surprised that it hasn't been modelled rtr already, given all the rumours/predictions in recent years, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Logically, Hornby already have the chassis and have done the WC/BoB in both original and rebuilt forms, so the original style MNs should not be in the too hard basket. Currently, the nearest you will get is to use a Hornby chassis with the Golden Arrow Productions resin kit. It would be nice if a rtr one became available. They cover up to 1959 in their original forms, with 35001 Channel Packet and 35028 Clan Line being amongst the very last to be rebuilt in that year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussiebrfan Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Yes please, put me down for one in Brunswick Green !!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 35028 was the very last one to be rebuilt, and was the only one to carry the second style of lion-and-wheel crest on its tender. ..... I'm sure the market would be vastly bigger if one of the 12'' to the foot scale was back dated..... In 1:1 scale, the topic of reconstructing an Original MN with chain-driven valve gear and air-smoothed casing has been canvassed before - Southern Locoomotives Limited had a (very) tentative idea to do this with 35022. However, Jeremy Hosking bought 35022 as a source of spares for his 35027, at which point the idea - and the engine - died. The remains of 35022 are now at Southall. The group which owns 35011 "General Steam Navigation" are also reputed to be thinking about going back to Original form. Their engine ended up in Barry with no crank axle, so they will need at least that. A new inside cylinder would have to be cast to allow inside admission (the "rebuilts" had outside admission valves), and then you'd have the whole business of new chain-driven valve gear and oil sump, etc. Is it worth it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 If it were my toy and money I would propose going 'lookee-likee' by arranging internal drives to the same design of Caprotti gear as on DoG, with roller bearing main axleboxes too. That should enable the external appearance of the original Bulleid design to be restored, combined with what is probably the best steam distribution achieved in a simple locomotive, making the best use of the output of the excellent boiler. That's a logical follow on to the Jarvis rebuild too: use what is now the proven performance of the BR8 equipment to eliminate Bulleid's chain driven gear and oil bath: neither of which look like 'making the cut' even in any potentially developed form. Spending a lot of dough on restoring the original design to end up with a machine incapable of reliably doing the business out on the network would be a real sickener. It's possible that a current engineering team could make the Bulleid concepts work, but that's risky simply because railway steam loco engineering development isn't so widely practised. If the engineers of the 1940s and 50s who were deep-ended in the technology couldn't make a go of it after a decade of exposure to the problems, then probably best to conclude that there was no way out of the holes dug by those particular concepts. An OO model? Sometime in the next five years I should think, simply because there are very few BR period named express types (= eye candy) available as new subjects. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted July 23, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2012 Kind of surprised it hasn't already been done; as others above have said, Hornby are half way there already. Personally I don't think there's anything finer than an original MN in express passenger blue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I'd be inclined to do the cosmetic appearance of the unrebuilt locomotive combined with the known benefits of the Walschaerts valve gear and cylindrical smokebox - a might-have-been partial rebuild, in effect. I do have to agree with Barry re the BR express blue with white/black/white lining; it really suited the unrebuilt MNs. Come to think of it, it also suited the (non-authentic for non-preserved days) blue Hornby "Canadian Pacific". Currently watching a Golden Arrow resin body on eBay - may be tempted if it doesn't go up too much! I do have a few too many Hornby rebuilt MNs as it is ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Graham_Muz Posted July 23, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2012 Getting back to the topic of the 4mm model, on a personal level having built a number I would be happy for a RTR version not to appear! I guess so far it has been the complexity of a small class of only 30 locos built as three distinct and different series of 10. There are three main body styles, three cab styles, three tender types, 2 trailing truck types and at least 4 smoke deflector variations etc. As already stated Hornby would in theory be the best placed to take this on as they already have the chassis block, valve gear, wheels and a couple of the tender chassis etc. With respect to liveries there has been at least three variations of Malachite, SR Black, BR Blue (and one experimental blue, but it did not enter service as such) and of course that BR Green colour. An illustration of some of the variations can be seen on my blog here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 23, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2012 If it were my toy and money I would propose going 'lookee-likee' by arranging internal drives to the same design of Caprotti gear as on DoG, with roller bearing main axleboxes too. That should enable the external appearance of the original Bulleid design to be restored, combined with what is probably the best steam distribution achieved in a simple locomotive, making the best use of the output of the excellent boiler. That's a logical follow on to the Jarvis rebuild too: use what is now the proven performance of the BR8 equipment to eliminate Bulleid's chain driven gear and oil bath: neither of which look like 'making the cut' even in any potentially developed form. Spending a lot of dough on restoring the original design to end up with a machine incapable of reliably doing the business out on the network would be a real sickener. It's possible that a current engineering team could make the Bulleid concepts work, but that's risky simply because railway steam loco engineering development isn't so widely practised. If the engineers of the 1940s and 50s who were deep-ended in the technology couldn't make a go of it after a decade of exposure to the problems, then probably best to conclude that there was no way out of the holes dug by those particular concepts. An OO model? Sometime in the next five years I should think, simply because there are very few BR period named express types (= eye candy) available as new subjects. One problem (among quite a few) with the originals was the chains stretching and that is something modern material might solve but I doubt if even modern technology could make the oil bath completely sealed and prevent leaks from it or the fires under the cladding which were sometimes the result of such leaks. Caprotti might well be the answer but even then which of the various original variations do you replicate? That puzzle will exist as much for the 'replicaists' as it would for any model manufacturer. Coming to the latter area Hornby have managed fairly well so far with various tunes around the 'Castle' theme' but that is a very different kettle of fish from some serious bodywork differences on the MNs. It might conceivably be suitable for treatment by the 'after market' manufacturers who can knock out a resin shell but it would still need a suitable chassis. Overall I can't see it climbing very far up the lists, but then I'm not a 'Southern' modeller. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 ......Currently watching a Golden Arrow resin body on eBay - may be tempted if it doesn't go up too much! I do have a few too many Hornby rebuilt MNs as it is ... Mmm....so am I.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Of course there's a market for the as-built Merchant Navy with the original widow's peak front-end. For most of us, interest here goes in the one-off / novelty category but just because it doesn't really suit a large number of layouts out there doesn't mean it won't be purchased - by lots of people. It's a regular contender in the annual, 'what will Hornby make next year' stakes. For me, preferably 21C1 - 21C2 in malachite, but any of the first batch will be fine (in malachite). There are some detail issues that make the Merchant Navies tricky, like the horizontal seam on the eight with asbestos board air-smoothed casing and the involuted dates around cab shapes and the changes to the shape of the casing on the front end that make liveries complicated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcountryman Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I would certainly be interested in an original MN, & the fact that Hornby already manufacture a suitable chassis ( OK, maybe a bit of fettling on their part) makes them the prime contender for manufacturer, however, seeing as they appear to be cancelling numerous releases at the moment, I guess I won't be holding by breath. Still, we can always dream! In ideal circumstances, maybe a pristine example, accompanied by a factory weathered model. They've already improved the rtr 'spam can' since the early examples, & I'm sure it wouldn't take too much effort on their part. Hornby do seem to be favouring us Southern modellers at the moment, so long may it continue. Cheers Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
decauville1126 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 The Golden Arrow kit is actually quite flexible in that there are many variations/permutations using a 'common' middle section. A quick check of their website can take you into the instructions - quite straightforward. And they do cater for the 1st type, aka 'widows peak' http://www.goldenarrow.me.uk/products.htm#southern http://www.goldenarrow.me.uk/goldenarrow_htm_files/pdfs/Merc%20Navy%20instrs.pdf And the prices aren't that far away from the ebay ones ..... Haven't yet though seen any built ones - just the raw resin castings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 With respect to liveries there has been at least three variations of Malachite, SR Black, BR Blue (and one experimental blue, but it did not enter service as such) and of course that BR Green colour. An illustration of some of the variations can be seen on my blog here. The Golden Arrow kit is actually quite flexible in that there are many variations/permutations using a 'common' middle section. A quick check of their website can take you into the instructions - quite straightforward. And they do cater for the 1st type, aka 'widows peak' http://www.goldenarr...Navy instrs.pdf Between Graham's blog (thank you for reposting the link here) the Golden Arrow kit instructions, and SEMG, I'm finally piecing together the complex modifications to the first series of Merchant Navies. I assume that it was 21C3 - 21C10 that had the asbestos board sidings with the big rib visible on 21C3 here. Did this last until rebuilding? Not counting tender changes, I see the following outline changes to 21C1: 21C1 - built 2/41 Sloping number plate removed ?? Widows peak removed, replaced with small deflectors, 'bullnose' fairing removed? 44 or 45? V front cab fitted - 12/50 Safety valve behind dome - 6/56 Rebuilt - 8/59 A complicated history indeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Graham_Muz Posted July 24, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2012 I assume that it was 21C3 - 21C10 that had the asbestos board sidings with the big rib visible on 21C3 here. Did this last until rebuilding? Yes the first series engines 21C3 to 10 all had the limpet board sides and the horizontal side rib until rebuilding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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