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Semaphore Signals - 4mm Scale (Mainly)


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Thanks Roy, that is very useful. Will try that out because when you look through a magnifier you can see the dot pattern from the colour laser printed transfer - probably fine for most but in reality if I can see it then I think others will too and I will try and do a better job. I have to say that none of my ground signals have lights nor do the balance weights move, going to have to try and resolve the balance weights though but lights are out for this layout.

 

Ralph

Hope you succeed Ralph . Re. the moving balance weights , Steve has done it on this thread, which inspired me to have a go , and if you look on page 306 on Tony Wright's thread , Wright Writes , about 1/4 of the way down the page , there are photos he took of my efforts , but I'm not clever enough to operate them like Steve does ; all these advanced electrics are beyond me !

 

Roy.

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Thanks Ralph and Roy,

 

The signal I built uses the same Hall Royd transfers.

They might look "painted" because I made a bit of a mess of fitting them on this "Test Build".

Getting the holes through the lens of the transfers caused some damage.

 

All the ones I've built previously, LNWR, SR and GWR have been hand painted free-hand with a 0000 brush, then the white edge restored with the same brush.

I'll probably do the same with the "Production Build" of these, although I will make a couple of punches for the lens first to see if that is successful.

I now use the transfers on all my upper quadrant and GWR Lower Quadrant signal arms.

 

Your comment on "others seeing" is interesting.
I find semaphore signals are almost invisible when viewed as the usual view is "edge on" to the track.

The movement which catches the eye is often the balance weight, which is why I always try to make them move, and paint them white.

 

Steve.

Edited by Steve Hewitt
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I know what you mean about making the holes in the discs for the lenses! I had the same problem but in the end I left them and painted a spot on the transfer to represent the lenses but even that is not perfect.

 

That is an interesting point about seeing the signals Steve, never thought of it like that before and it has given me some things to think about when doing mine again. Thanks.

 

Ralph

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Completing the test build.....

 

Assembly was fairly straight forward, except getting the weight bars to move.

The etched weight bar has the hole for the drive between bar and back blinder very close to the pivot.

I would normally have just routed the operating wire through the weight bar en-route to the blinder.

 

This time I had to attach a small forked whatsit to the operating wire so it could lift the bar.

attachicon.gifRIMG2211.jpg

You can see them between the weight bars awaiting painting.

 

attachicon.gifRIMG2283.jpg

They're not really visible on the final assembly :no:

 

Front view from ground level:

attachicon.gifRIMG2269.jpg

 

And rear view, showing the fibres quite well:

attachicon.gifRIMG2280.jpg

 

Here's my little video of it on test:

 

I'm quite pleased with this first build of the Palatine Models kit.

I'll be making up several more for the Club's new layout, and I hope to tighten the assembly quite a bit.

(Too much space between signal body and back blinders etc.)

 

Steve.

Absolutely superb and the lighting is very obvious so very worthwhile.

 

I have just sent for a couple and if successful will need a good few more but have a question.. I have seen an etch of these and while there's one base and body the discs and weights are duplicated.

 

Are they designed to be laminated as I wold have thought for the weight bar but the discs look ok as they are.

 

Can you advise what you do in this respect?

 

Thanks

 

Dave

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Dave, these were designed to be dead scale and based on drawings in the LMS Journal. The etch is for one base which can support 2 signals on the same base therefore there are 2 discs and 2 balance weights and 2 blinders. If you want 3 or even 4 signals on the same base you can adapt 2 etches to make them as I have done for the 3 up signal we needed. In general ground signals are only singles in which case you can remove the top light box from the fret and use only 1 set of discs, weights etc. Doubling the thickness of these items is not what I intended, it will make everything far too thick.

 

Hope this explains things for you.

 

Ralph

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Thanks Ralph both for the prompt service and reply.

Arrived today and fret on bench..soldering station heating as we speak!

If I have any queries daft or otherwise I'll no doubt trouble you again!

 

The signals look great and we have a requirement on the new layout for quite a few so if this successful Ill be back in touch no doubt.

On Alloa we have very few working discs and to be honest on the new track plan there would be almost as many discs as signals..27 of the latter and counting around 20 discs single and stacked up to x4 so impractical to have them all operational.

 

Thanks again

 

Dave 

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Completing the test build.....

 

Assembly was fairly straight forward, except getting the weight bars to move.

The etched weight bar has the hole for the drive between bar and back blinder very close to the pivot.

I would normally have just routed the operating wire through the weight bar en-route to the blinder.

 

This time I had to attach a small forked whatsit to the operating wire so it could lift the bar.

attachicon.gifRIMG2211.jpg

You can see them between the weight bars awaiting painting.

 

attachicon.gifRIMG2283.jpg

They're not really visible on the final assembly :no:

 

Front view from ground level:

attachicon.gifRIMG2269.jpg

 

And rear view, showing the fibres quite well:

attachicon.gifRIMG2280.jpg

 

Here's my little video of it on test:

 

I'm quite pleased with this first build of the Palatine Models kit.

I'll be making up several more for the Club's new layout, and I hope to tighten the assembly quite a bit.

(Too much space between signal body and back blinders etc.)

 

Steve.

Very nice Steve and great video..love the bounce action.

 

I've just sat down with a fret and have the it folded and soldered and the discs on their pins and the back blinds drilled and all good so far.

post-2371-0-94597600-1454190862_thumb.jpg

 

I'm still a bit puzzled over how you pivoted the crank within the housing.

Did you run a brass rod through the pair of them and solder to the base..it must have been very fine indeed which suggests that mechanical strength or flexing is likely?

Tempted to use a slightly heavier crank from another kit and pivot with tube spacers between but would rather retain the accuracy of the original.

What what was the mod you did regarding the pivot point.

I can see I would need to do something here as theres very little metal and doubt if they will stand up tho exhibition conditions.

Finally did you laminate the weight bars..there are two of each on the fret

 

Thanks in Advance

 

Dave.

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Very nice Steve and great video..love the bounce action.

 

I've just sat down with a fret and have the it folded and soldered and the discs on their pins and the back blinds drilled and all good so far.

attachicon.gifIMG_5938.jpg

 

I'm still a bit puzzled over how you pivoted the crank within the housing.

Did you run a brass rod through the pair of them and solder to the base..it must have been very fine indeed which suggests that mechanical strength or flexing is likely?

Tempted to use a slightly heavier crank from another kit and pivot with tube spacers between but would rather retain the accuracy of the original.

What what was the mod you did regarding the pivot point.

I can see I would need to do something here as theres very little metal and doubt if they will stand up tho exhibition conditions.

Finally did you laminate the weight bars..there are two of each on the fret

 

Thanks in Advance

 

Dave

Hi Dave,

 

This was a test build, so I did everything more or less as the kit except adding the lighting, and my usual; method of build foundations.

 

The crank pivot is a 0.4mm Nickel Silver wire. Not soldered, just crimped at each end.

I improved the crank pivots by soldering washers on each side, which I think you can see in the "Awaiting Painting" photo. When opened out with a broach, these give a good bearing.

Just one lamination for each crank, as supplied, with the washers to give extra journal length where required. (Stops any wobble).

 

Looking at your photo, I notice you put the half etch lines on the inside. I did mine the other way - Inside Out?

I also added a long tube bearing for the disc pivot from 0.6mm tube (0.4mm I.D.). Again you can see this on the photos.

 

I think this will be a very usable kit for exhibition purposes, and expect to build several for my Club's new layout "Bankfield".

 

Steve.

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Thanks Steve for that.

Yes I did build 'inside out' ..first build and my mistake but should be ok.

Sent for them after reading your article and they came next day ..what great service from Palatine.

I didn't have suitable bearing tubes to hand thats why they are not on the pic yet also I will not be adding lighting..fantastic as it is.. so no holes drilled for either.

We may not need too many operational but regardless of this we will use them as they look very fine and will enhance the new layout however there will be a few including a 4x stack in the station so want to get this right.

I had also decided if using the supplied cranks I would solder small washers and then drill through for strength.

Like you we will probably have a need for quite a few..twenty or so when last counted..on the new layout which of course is still at track laying stage so be a bit of time yet before its hopefully invited on the circuit.

I'll post progress next week and be interested to hear if you build more or mod anything.

I should say for the benefit of those perhaps thinking of purchasing these signals that these are superbly accurate models and the only reason I am looking at small mods to the operating side is purely to strengthen to withstand the rigours of an exhibition layout and acknowledge that built as supplied it looks superb.

 

Dave.

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To respond to both Steve's and Dave's postings.

 

First, the Palatine Models LMS Ground Signal etch is not a kit, it is merely an etch. It is intended to be an aid to building an accurate model of an LMS ground signal and is intended for the serious modeller who is likely to have the remaining parts needed to complete the model to hand. This includes the necessary wire, pins and tubing.

 

Secondly, I haven't done any instructions because I have never really sold any of these etches - 10 is probably the most I have sold in 4 years or so (even after an article about them appearing in Scalefour News). They were produced for the Manchester Model Railway Society's P4 club layout Slattocks Junction and we needed 5 of them. To help us I made them into an etch because, in my opinion, the alternative casting was a very poor representation of this signal and I knew I could do better. As such I designed and developed this etch - it took 3 or 4 attempts to get it right but Steve's work shows what is possible with care and patience. I also never intended that the balance weights be made operational which is why the pivots are flimsy but accurate however Steve has shown it is possible to do it by beefing up the pivot points.

 

The fold lines do need to be on the inside Dave as Steve has done. And yes, the pivot point on the back blind is marked in the wrong place and I haven't corrected that, simply because I only need 5 making and I didn't really expect to sell any. As my website says, I simply sell these to help others and I certainly don't do it as a business. There won't be any different types adding to the range either, if we need it for Slattocks then I will produce something, if we don't then I won't - life is too short and I have too much modelling to do without developing things that the group doesn't need. Yes, there are some narrow gauge bits on the website too but I do have a layout of my own being built which is why I have those bits!

 

Ralph

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Dave, forgot to say that the crosshatch area on the baseplate is where you are supposed to solder the ground signal frame to - I know instructions would have been useful, sorry, I will have to put something together when I get chance.

 

Ralph

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Hi Ralph..I blame Steve for wrong location on the baseplate..I copied him!

Easy changed as its resistance tacked and can just as easily be untacked mind you I would think once ballast and general trackside detail is down all will be hidden anyway.

Fold lines my mistake but will be fine..too much of a rush.

I agree its not a kit but an etch and aimed at guys that will use it as the basis of a scale model and no doubt modify or build as they require so I wouldn't worry about instructions.

I hope from that comment though that you still intend to make these etches generally available…I think we might need a few!

I know Steve has the balance weights working and I will probably reinforce the pivot point with very fine tube rotating on a fixed brass rod sweated across the frame as I want to see what is achievable however if we do need a number to operate and they're at a distance..new layoiutr is 40ft+.. temptation will be to use the back blind as a crank..drilled where suitable and operated by pull rod to below baseboard and switched from the point.

I would also like to explore the possibility of a surface crank and connect directly to the point mechanically above board.

Either way these are superb etches and go together well and if you accept the weight bars and cranks as cosmetic very easy to make operational too.

 

Dave.

 

(I have sent a pm) 

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Signal complete now and in primer and including some locking representation on base.

 

Attached image taken last week showing the slightly heavier backblinds/cranks that I made from brass strip and fitted to ease construction and hopefully give reliable operation.

 

post-2371-0-64536000-1454869875_thumb.jpeg

 

The originals are dead scale and while they look great I think there needs to be a small compromise between appearance and robustness to give reliability under exhibition conditions. 

 

Simply made from scrap brass..image is rough shape still to be filed back a bit and finished and once fitted and painted look ok with plenty metal to drill for pivot and operating wire.

 

post-2371-0-64902500-1454869915_thumb.jpeg

 

These are great signals and go together well and can't believe every BR/LMS based layout doesn't feature them.

 

Will post finished and painted signal soon. 

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Back to the "Big Stuff"..........

 

Current project is a pair of GWR Square Post signals for the London "Might Have Been" terminus.

 

First signal is a right hand bracket with Starter and Backing Arm, the second is a Starter.

 

The two main posts and the short doll are 3d Prints with hollow centres for the fibre optic.

The bracket work is MSE Etches with added angles etc.

Usual ground works of Foundation tube, Base-plate, Guide Tubes etc.

 

Here they are, ready for a clean and polish before going to the paint-shop:

 

post-3984-0-16120200-1454960779_thumb.jpg

 

post-3984-0-50854100-1454960780_thumb.jpg

 

post-3984-0-15732000-1454960797_thumb.jpg

 

post-3984-0-24115000-1454960800_thumb.jpg

 

And a collection of the other bits to be added alter:

 

post-3984-0-18481800-1454960785_thumb.jpg

 

More soon I hope.

 

Steve.

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Back from the Paint Shop........

 

First task was to add the other bits seen previously:

This gives a mechanically complete and working signal:

post-3984-0-06078700-1455626568_thumb.jpg

 

post-3984-0-39741900-1455626569_thumb.jpg

 

Some detail:

Weight bars:

post-3984-0-72153100-1455626575_thumb.jpg

 

post-3984-0-62463000-1455626573_thumb.jpg

 

The cranks on the bracket signal are a scale 6 inches:

post-3984-0-91857500-1455626570_thumb.jpg

 

post-3984-0-58854800-1455626592_thumb.jpg

unfortunately, almost lost in the gloom!

 

The wooden staging was added next:

post-3984-0-76104700-1455626600_thumb.jpg

 

post-3984-0-37708900-1455626599_thumb.jpg

 

post-3984-0-76174300-1455626595_thumb.jpg

 

post-3984-0-61720200-1455626602_thumb.jpg

 

post-3984-0-19698300-1455626597_thumb.jpg

 

The fibres have been installed, but not terminated at the LED end as I'm waiting a delivery from Shapeways of the 3D printed bayonet fittings I've started using.

 

More details when they arrive, and then a little video.....

 

Steve.

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Hi Dave,

 

Yes, we had a great trip to Glasgow.

The Lime Street Crew have made this an annual trip out - Virgin Pendolino 1st Class from Preston with good food and drink keeps us in a happy mood.

(All of us are associated with the Blackburn & East Lancs MRS, and in total we usually have more than a dozen Club Members making the trip.)

 

Your introduction to Archie and Ian was much appreciated, and our meeting was very fruitful.

We look forward to receiving our invitation to the 2017 or 2018 show.

 

Steve.

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The fibres have been installed, but not terminated at the LED end as I'm waiting a delivery from Shapeways of the 3D printed bayonet fittings I've started using.

 

More details when they arrive, and then a little video.....

 

Steve.

 

Here are the 3D printed LED to Fibre connectors:

 

post-3984-0-82712900-1458138727_thumb.jpg

 

The Helmsman "Gas Light" LED locates in the larger piece:

post-3984-0-96984800-1458138725_thumb.jpg

 

and the Fibre in the "plug" section.

post-3984-0-29244900-1458138724_thumb.jpg

 

Push together, and twist to secure with the "bayonet" 

post-3984-0-70456500-1458138722_thumb.jpg

 

Those familiar with my older method will recall the use of brass Tubes and/or Turnings to make something similar.

 

Steve.

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