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Semaphore Signals - 4mm Scale (Mainly)


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It will be interesting to see a diagram of your layout Phil, to compare with what is there today. I only became familiar with that particular area in the last year or so, as I've been the Telecoms CRE for the new Worcestershire Parkway Station. 

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Will try and do a diagram tomorrow Ian - but havent mastered any of the software packages yet!

 

So a couple of queries for those with appropriate knowledge and expertise please....

 

Spectacle lenses - has anyone found an easy way to glaze them? Does glue and glaze work perhaps ?

 

ANd the WR signal posts were a silvery grey - have been looking for a colour match but no joy yet - can anyone advise please?

 

Cheers

 

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7 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Yes Phil - and colour them afterwards with felt tips.

 

Cheers! Exactly what I was thinking.......although I am not going for illumination still want them looking as good as possible.

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13 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

 

So a couple of queries for those with appropriate knowledge and expertise please....

 

Spectacle lenses - has anyone found an easy way to glaze them? Does glue and glaze work perhaps ?ANd the WR signal posts were a silvery grey - have been looking for a colour match but no joy yet - can anyone advise please?

 

 

Cheers

 

Hi Phil,

 

I glaze the spectacles with MSE glazing.

I punch out the correct size disc with a "leather punch".

Fix with Clear Glaze or any PVA glue to rear of spectacle.

When dry, cover front face of each spectacle with Clear Glaze or Gloss varnish.

(This ensures the glazing is fixed securely.)

 

If you need to colour any clear glazing, use "Glass Paint" which is available in Craft Shops etc.

 

For later WR signal posts, try "Aluminium" paint.

 

Good luck,

 

Steve.

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1 minute ago, Steve Hewitt said:

Hi Phil,

 

I glaze the spectacles with MSE glazing.

I punch out the correct size disc with a "leather punch".

Fix with Clear Glaze or any PVA glue to rear of spectacle.

When dry, cover front face of each spectacle with Clear Glaze or Gloss varnish.

(This ensures the glazing is fixed securely.)

 

If you need to colour any clear glazing, use "Glass Paint" which is available in Craft Shops etc.

 

For later WR signal posts, try "Aluminium" paint.

 

Good luck,

 

Steve.

Hi Steve, any luck in finding out what's happening with the supply of "gaslight" LEDS that used to be available from Helmsman?

JF

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Hi Jon,

 

I heard second hand that Geoff Helm (Helmsman) had passed all his stock of the LEDs to Peco.

I was going to try to buy any stock he had left!

 

I then contacted Peco via their website with the following:

 

"For many years I have used "Gaslight" LEDs from Helmsman Electronics to illuminate my Semaphore Signals.

I understand that you have taken on Helmsman's products, and would like to know when these LEDs will be available for purchase.

Kind regards,

Steve Hewitt."

 

Peco responded with:

 

"Dear Mr Hewitt

Thank you for your email

At present we are in the changeover period from Helmsman to Peco, and we are aiming to start reintroducing parts of the Helmsman range in the first few months of 2020. We cannot advise which items will be released first, but should have a clearer picture early next year, and we will be announcing details after this.

Kind regards

A Beard"

 

I think it might be a good idea for all users of these LEDs, which I believe Geoff Helm had  specially made, were to make similar inquiries of Peco, to encourage them to get them back on sale asap.  There are certainly several who follow my Topic who have followed my advice and used them.

 

All the best for Christmas,

Steve.

 

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Happy New Year to all my RMweb followers.

I hope I'm able to stimulate your continued interest in the signals I build and if my ramblings encourage some of you "have  go", so much the better.

 

Here is my first project for 2020  -  the semaphore signals for Tony Teague's "Churminster & Stowe Magna" railway.

Here's a link to his Topic:  

 

A very good article about Tony's layout appears in the current issue of Hornby Magazine.

 

My contribution is going to be the Semaphore signalling - the colour light signals have already bee installed.

 

Starting first with Churminster, where all the signalling is semaphore, the first to be built is the Platform 3 Up Starter.

This is an ex-LSWR tall lattice signal with co-acting arms, converted to Upper quadrant operation.

 

I have already posted a few "work in progress" shots on Tony's topic  

 

 

Here a few shots of the completed model, with a short video to follow (don't hold your breath).

 

2020-01-05_20_33_16.jpg.598c2c71257f162efccb10d5f6fb3dfe.jpg

 

2020-01-05_20_33_23.jpg.3e658c00166559a30c8d962379bc8648.jpg

 

 

1895114912_2020-01-0520_33_49.jpg.aea44848863903cfa0d35232185cbfcf.jpg

You can see here how the co-acting effect is achieved. The operating wire passes through the lower weight bar and continues

up to the upper weight bar, ensuring they both move together and by an equal amount.

 

1948097632_2020-01-0520_34_04.jpg.23f51b4b4252460bb982cecd25e2e949.jpg

 

28133883_2020-01-0520_34_51.jpg.89c034fdb65c9ccdbcb720726fe856f7.jpg

Very careful measuring of the links between the weight bars and the their signal arms is necessary to ensure both arms are parallel.

 

More soon...

 

Steve.

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2 hours ago, RailWest said:

They look nice - but one small question, why the white weights please?

 

Hi Chris,

 

The short answer is "Visibility".  Easier to see in dark conditions - particularly wartime.

Still used today by Network Rail in places.

 

Steve.

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4 hours ago, Rowsley17D said:

I wish I could get my signal operating wires as neat as yours, or anywhere close really. What gauge/diameter of wire do you use and is it brass? Thanks.

 

Hi Jonathan,

 

Thanks for your kind comment.

I don't use Brass wire for anything!

I always use Nickel Silver of various diameters from 0.31mm  up to 0.5mm for operating wires.

The thinnest is usually reserved for Ground Signals or very short runs on others.

The problem is that it buckles and kinks too easily.

In real life the signal wires are always in tension, but in our models they are required to push as well as pull!  

 

Most operating wires are made from 0.4mm dia N/S wire.

 

I always blacken the wire with "Gun Blue" before use. If you need to solder it, you must clean off the Black first, as Gun Blue makes a good solder resist.

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

Steve.

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Here’s my progress .... along with other far less complex dolls...

 

Right away Abbotswood up main to Norton Junction. Hopefully a 3D printed 4 servo stack is on the way....

 

waiting a trip through the dishwasher too...

 

0B9B1F7F-CB96-4A88-93B4-C1B5DB6D89FA.jpeg

Edited by Phil Bullock
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19 hours ago, Steve Hewitt said:

 

Hi Chris,

 

The short answer is "Visibility".  Easier to see in dark conditions - particularly wartime.

Still used today by Network Rail in places.

 

Steve.

Interesting - not my experience of most ex-L&SWR locations, although it crops up on some heritage lines. Maybe Stationmaster has a view please?

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17 hours ago, Steve Hewitt said:

 

Hi Jonathan,

 

Thanks for your kind comment.

I don't use Brass wire for anything!

I always use Nickel Silver of various diameters from 0.31mm  up to 0.5mm for operating wires.

The thinnest is usually reserved for Ground Signals or very short runs on others.

The problem is that it buckles and kinks too easily.

In real life the signal wires are always in tension, but in our models they are required to push as well as pull!  

 

Most operating wires are made from 0.4mm dia N/S wire.

 

I always blacken the wire with "Gun Blue" before use. If you need to solder it, you must clean off the Black first, as Gun Blue makes a good solder resist.

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

Steve.

 

Thanks Steve, that's very helpful, I know what I need from Kendal show at the end of the month. I have been using brass, as that's all I had 0.3mm and 0.4mm. So far it's worked but I guess it's luck and short lengths.

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Hope Steve doesn't mind me showing my latest efforts, after all I was inspired by his creations to have a go myself.

 

DSCF7058.JPG.de374e603cd93c82ce8992f207c89f6a.JPG

 

The post and dolls are 3D printed as used by Steve earlier on in this thread. The trimmers are Plastikard (easier to drill for crank pins.) The rest MSE products. Nano-servo driven using MegaPoints control. Lamps by ModelU lit by nano-LEDs.

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2 hours ago, RailWest said:

Interesting - not my experience of most ex-L&SWR locations, although it crops up on some heritage lines. Maybe Stationmaster has a view please?

 

Pictures in 'Pryer' would tend not to support your view / experience.

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On 18/12/2019 at 16:22, Steve Hewitt said:

Hi Jon,

 

I heard second hand that Geoff Helm (Helmsman) had passed all his stock of the LEDs to Peco.

I was going to try to buy any stock he had left!

 

I then contacted Peco via their website with the following:

 

"For many years I have used "Gaslight" LEDs from Helmsman Electronics to illuminate my Semaphore Signals.

I understand that you have taken on Helmsman's products, and would like to know when these LEDs will be available for purchase.

Kind regards,

Steve Hewitt."

 

Peco responded with:

 

"Dear Mr Hewitt

Thank you for your email

At present we are in the changeover period from Helmsman to Peco, and we are aiming to start reintroducing parts of the Helmsman range in the first few months of 2020. We cannot advise which items will be released first, but should have a clearer picture early next year, and we will be announcing details after this.

Kind regards

A Beard"

 

I think it might be a good idea for all users of these LEDs, which I believe Geoff Helm had  specially made, were to make similar inquiries of Peco, to encourage them to get them back on sale asap.  There are certainly several who follow my Topic who have followed my advice and used them.

 

All the best for Christmas,

Steve.

 

Excellent, thanks for that Steve. I'll certainly take your advice on that and badger peco for some of them. 

To also enter the contentious weight bar colour debate, I thought the BR(S) fittings, including weight bars, back blinds, spec plates etc were all mid grey..(runs for cover:D)

Cheers

JF

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1 hour ago, Tony Teague said:

 

Pictures in 'Pryer' would tend not to support your view / experience.

Except perhaps with some short signal posts on platforms, or close to walking routes, why would you want/need to see the weight anyway? It's the arm and light which is of interest to the driver!

 

If by 'Pyer' you mean his book on Southern Signals for OPC, then certainly I can't find at first glance any examples therein of white weights, but there are few quite examples where the weight lever has been painted in the mid-grey used by the SR for other parts of the fittings such as the spectacle casting.

Edited by RailWest
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White Weights.....

 

I quote from the layout owner's statement about his railway :

"my interest had settled on the Southern Railway and on a period stretching from just before WW2 until just prior to nationalisation."

i.e. Before BR(S) had developed its paint protocols.

 

The "Visibility" issue was very relevant during wartime, and not just for Train Crew.

 

Thank you all for your interest and constructive criticism, which is always welcome.

 

Steve.

 

 

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2 hours ago, RailWest said:

Except perhaps with some short signal posts on platforms, or close to walking routes, why would you want/need to see the weight anyway? It's the arm and light which is of interest to the driver!

 

If by 'Pyer' you mean his book on Southern Signals for OPC, then certainly I can't find at first glance any examples therein of white weights, but there are few quite examples where the weight lever has been painted in the mid-grey used by the SR for other parts of the fittings such as the spectacle casting.

There are a number of examples in George Pryer's book where the weight and the lever, or the lever (no weight) are both painted grey and I have found a couple (only) of similar examples in another book.  Generally in illustrations the most common 'colour' is 'dark' suggesting either black (the most likely I think) or dirt.  I can't immediately lay hands on any of my own pictures of ex SR/L&SWR signals (all taken in the 1960s) but I certainly can't recall seeing any signals on the Southern where the balance weight was in a different colour from the lever.

 

As far as potential injury to staff walking past a signal the normal Southern practice was of course to put the lever well above head height although a low lever might have been unavoidable on a co-acting signal.  Oddly the only reasonably clear photo I can find of a co-acting signal seems to have no weight levers at all but it was close to the frame which worked it which might explain that.

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8 hours ago, Steve Hewitt said:

White Weights.....

 

I quote from the layout owner's statement about his railway :

"my interest had settled on the Southern Railway and on a period stretching from just before WW2 until just prior to nationalisation."

i.e. Before BR(S) had developed its paint protocols.

 

The "Visibility" issue was very relevant during wartime, and not just for Train Crew.

 

Thank you all for your interest and constructive criticism, which is always welcome.

 

Steve.

 

 

Noted, but....

 

Firstly, i would suggest that the Southern had developed paint protocols before WWII and in any case many ex-L&SWR signals might still have their older paint schemes.

 

Secondly, while I can understand the need for visibility in war-time conditions for certain items (hence white stripes on lamp-posts etc), to use the illustration of the co-acting signal as an example why on earth would anyone need to see the weight on the upper arm's weight-lever?

 

I do wonder if perhaps there has been a mis-understanding/mis-conception somewhere along the way...?

 

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10 hours ago, RailWest said:

If by 'Pyer' you mean his book on Southern Signals for OPC, then certainly I can't find at first glance any examples therein of white weights, but there are few quite examples where the weight lever has been painted in the mid-grey used by the SR for other parts of the fittings such as the spectacle casting.

 

8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

There are a number of examples in George Pryer's book where the weight and the lever, or the lever (no weight) are both painted grey and I have found a couple (only) of similar examples in another book.  Generally in illustrations the most common 'colour' is 'dark' suggesting either black (the most likely I think) or dirt.  I can't immediately lay hands on any of my own pictures of ex SR/L&SWR signals (all taken in the 1960s) but I certainly can't recall seeing any signals on the Southern where the balance weight was in a different colour from the lever.

 

I feel that it would be fair to suggest that the majority of pictures of signals show the arms and balance weights in silhouette against a lighter sky, and so the latter will appear dark or black whether they are grey, brown or pink, so these don't really tell us much; nor am I suggesting that black or grey were NOT used by the SR for balance weights, however, I would suggest that the images within 'Pryer' on pp. vi, 16, 47, 69, 75 appear to me at least to show weights that are much more likely to be white than any other shade. The same is true of the images from "Southern Infrastructure" [Noodle Books] vol.1 p.34 , vol.2 pp.19 & 57; these images are all from the former LSWR territory.

 

As to why they might be white, or 'light' - who knows!

 

 

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Having looked at the various photographs specified in the previous post, although it is not possible to be definite about such things in B&W photos taken in various lighting conditions, my overall impression is that any light colour is not white.

 

If you look at the photo on p16 of Pryer and compare with the front view of the same signal on the next page (17), I would argue that a first glance the latter seems to be darker than the rear view in the former. But I doubt that anyone would suggest that the front of a weight lever would be painted in a different colour than the back. Given the dates of those photos, I would argue that p16 at least is a good example of the SR mid-grey scheme.

 

The photo on p69 is interesting insofar as the weight levers on the two inner dolls seem to be in different colours than those of the two outer dolls.

 

Perhaps of more interest/intrigue is the photo on p75, where IMHO on both dolls the weight itself and the outer end of the weight lever are painted in a lighter colour than the remainder of the weight lever. If so, then I do wonder why? However, if you compare that lighter colour with the white bands on the signal arms and also the mid-grey paint on the spectacle castings (noting ironically that a different paint scheme is used for each!), then IMHO the weight colour is not white.

 

This may all seem rather pedantic and perhaps irrelevant in a situation where the layout owner is entitled to paint his signals howsoever he likes, but it does seem a shame - to me at least - to have such nice models of L&SWR signals only then to 'spoil' the effect with what may be an incongruous paint scheme.

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