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Semaphore Signals - 4mm Scale (Mainly)


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Hello Steve,

 

Thank you for sharing further images, I'll be saving them to my Moretonhampstead library. 

 

It was nice to see some of your Bench Equipment and the description of the Self Centring 4 Jaw Chuck. 

 

Looking forward to the next phase!

 

 

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On 26/03/2020 at 20:36, RailWest said:

>>> So from what you are saying, a locomotive standing at signal 12  which remains on, can proceed onto the loop, providing the road is correctly set and the ground disc 10 has been pulled off.

 

>>>Yes.

 

Sorry, but I must disagree as it is not quite that cut-and-dried. 

 

Signals 12 and 10 are not co-located, as 10 is in advance of 12 (although not by much) as the photo shows. A locomotive standing in rear of 12 should not proceed past that signal at danger simply because 10 is off without specific authorisation from the signalman. 

 

The usual situation would be that an engine has come out from either the loop or the platform line as a shunting movement and is standing in rear of 10 but in advance of 12. In such a case 12 does not apply to it, as it it is not (entirely) in rear of that signal, and so it can move forward again when 10 comes off.

 

I'll wait now to see if Stationmaster corrects me:- :-)

 

 

20 hours ago, RailWest said:

Yes, but...the circumstances are different.

 

With a train (ie more than just an engine) being shunted, then this is a shunting movement which comes out of the loop or platform line and should stop with the rear of the train just in rear of disc 10. Any movement back into the loop is then controlled purely by 10. The fact that most of the train might well extend well outside of the Down Home is irrelevant and so 12 can be ignored in those circumstances.

How can it do that as there is a lockbar for the fpl that has to be avoided?

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On 26/03/2020 at 20:36, RailWest said:

>>> So from what you are saying, a locomotive standing at signal 12  which remains on, can proceed onto the loop, providing the road is correctly set and the ground disc 10 has been pulled off.

 

>>>Yes.

 

Sorry, but I must disagree as it is not quite that cut-and-dried. 

 

Signals 12 and 10 are not co-located, as 10 is in advance of 12 (although not by much) as the photo shows. A locomotive standing in rear of 12 should not proceed past that signal at danger simply because 10 is off without specific authorisation from the signalman. 

 

The usual situation would be that an engine has come out from either the loop or the platform line as a shunting movement and is standing in rear of 10 but in advance of 12. In such a case 12 does not apply to it, as it it is not (entirely) in rear of that signal, and so it can move forward again when 10 comes off.

 

I'll wait now to see if Stationmaster corrects me:- :-)

But the signal diagram shows them to be co-located - why doesn't the diagram accord with the photo?

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Working from the signal diagram then for a goods train arriving and requiring to be put into the yard I would expect the following:

 

Train arrives platform line.

 

engine runs round and waits rear of 12. Road set - engine to train rear - coupled up and train pulled to rear of 12/10.

 

Road set 8 & 9 reversed and 10 reversed allowing train to be propelled into yard.

 

This must be so because 12 is locked by 9/11 reversed.

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1 hour ago, meil said:

Working from the signal diagram then for a goods train arriving and requiring to be put into the yard I would expect the following:

 

Train arrives platform line.

 

engine runs round and waits rear of 12. Road set - engine to train rear - coupled up and train pulled to rear of 12/10.

 

Road set 8 & 9 reversed and 10 reversed allowing train to be propelled into yard.

 

This must be so because 12 is locked by 9/11 reversed.

 But 11 is the fpl so  surely would have to be interlocked with 12 regardless of which route is set?

 

Steve,

 

Would you like us to move this sub discussion off your thread because, interesting as it is, it is detracting from your work?

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14 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

 But 11 is the fpl so  surely would have to be interlocked with 12 regardless of which route is set?

 

Steve,

 

Would you like us to move this sub discussion off your thread because, interesting as it is, it is detracting from your work?

 

I've asked Andy Y to move it to my Moretonhampstead Signalling thread. 

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/150296-moretonhampstead-signalling/

 

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10 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

 But 11 is the fpl so  surely would have to be interlocked with 12 regardless of which route is set?

 

Steve,

 

Would you like us to move this sub discussion off your thread because, interesting as it is, it is detracting from your work?

Correct 11 locks 9 either way but 9 reversed locks 12 normal

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18 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

 

Steve,

 

Would you like us to move this sub discussion off your thread because, interesting as it is, it is detracting from your work?

 

Yes please.

I was about to suggest it myself.

 

Thanks,

Steve.

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58 minutes ago, meil said:

Correct 11 locks 9 either way but 9 reversed locks 12 normal

Not entirely correct , sorry.

 

As the locking-table on the SRS site will show, 11 locked 9 normal only. This was the usual GWR arrangement - no need to lock 9 reverse as that was NOT a passenger route.  As the FPL did NOT lock the point reverse, it was not required by disc 10, so the disc could be at the point toe and it was not a problem that the train was standing over the locking bar.

 

Except that....if the FPL was 'in' and the engine/train happened to have shunted out from the platform line, the signalman would have to unbolt the FPL first, as it would not be able to do that once the train was standing over the locking bar (which operated for both lock and unlock actions). For the same reason the Down Home had to be in rear of the Bovey end of the FPL lock bar, because it was released by the FPL bolt being 'in', so any arriving Down train held outside the DH had to be clear of the locking bar.

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17 hours ago, Steve Hewitt said:

 

Next will be the signal itself............

 

Steve.

 

Various materials are being used in this model, so assembling them in the correct sequence to avoid collateral damage is important.

 

  • Brass components are attached to the Post with C&L 100deg solder. Unlike normal 70deg Low Melt solder, there's no need to tin Brass or N/S prior to attaching White Metal items.
  • 3D printed items are secured with either cyano adhesive or UV Cured adhesive. This is something new for me. It was recommended by a visitor to my Demo at the recent Preston show. It allows as long as it takes to get things correctly positioned before shining the UV light on it for 5-10 seconds.
  • Brass or N/S items are joined with 179deg solder. This is now my solder of choice for all assembly work. It contains Silver to make it flow really well, and reduces cleaning up effort.

 

The bearing for the Weight Bar is attached with 100deg solder.

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The Arm Bearing is made from 1/32in brass tube.

This had to be recessed into the Post to ensure alignment of the spectacles in front of the Lamp.

 

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The Lamp and its Bracket had also to be recessed slightly to get the correct alignment.

They were attached with the UV Cured adhesive.

 

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The Post was secured in the socket with 100deg solder.

To ensure the Post is vertical, I mounted the foundation assembly in the lathe chuck, and used the revolving tail centre to keep everything in alignment during the soldering.

 

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The result, standing proud.

Not shown here is the tiny amount of Squadron Putty used to blend the joint between Post and Socket.

 

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The Lampman's Stage came next. Fixed with 100deg solder once again.

 

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Then the Ladder.

 

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Finally the Ladder Stays.

 

The Finial was added with Cyano, then cleaning, polishing, degreasing and off to the Paintshop.

 

Steve.

 

 

Edited by Steve Hewitt
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On 26/03/2020 at 20:36, RailWest said:

>>> So from what you are saying, a locomotive standing at signal 12  which remains on, can proceed onto the loop, providing the road is correctly set and the ground disc 10 has been pulled off.

 

>>>Yes.

 

Sorry, but I must disagree as it is not quite that cut-and-dried. 

 

Signals 12 and 10 are not co-located, as 10 is in advance of 12 (although not by much) as the photo shows. A locomotive standing in rear of 12 should not proceed past that signal at danger simply because 10 is off without specific authorisation from the signalman. 

 

The usual situation would be that an engine has come out from either the loop or the platform line as a shunting movement and is standing in rear of 10 but in advance of 12. In such a case 12 does not apply to it, as it it is not (entirely) in rear of that signal, and so it can move forward again when 10 comes off.

 

I'll wait now to see if Stationmaster corrects me:- :-)

He won't.  There are two different situations which are becoming a little bit confused & confounded mixed in some of the earlier remarks plus we need to get normal operation of branch freights at a terminus into our heads and not the way railway modellers seem to think they were operated.

 

1. An arriving freight trip would arrive at the passenger platform line because that is what the Signalling Regulations provided for in permitting acceptance of the train (even on the GWR) and,

2. Arriving on that line invariably gives the longest length of train which can be run round - might only be one or maybe two wagon lengths extra but even that might at times be critical.

3. From then onwards, including the engine run round, any shunting movement simply draws back clear of the ground disc (and the facing point lock bar ;)) at the point toe, so the Home Signal does not apply to such a movement but the ground disc does.

4 As it is a white light disc it can be passed at danger when the points to which it applies are lying normal, i.e. towards the platform line (white line discs were a GWR peculiarity  and were used in running lines; they should not be confused with yellow arm discs - which were not used on the Western before 1950).

 

What the oddity was at Moretonhampstead was the position of the Home Signal - set back from the point toe- not the position of the ground disc.   Normally they would be co-located but quite why that wasn't the case here is something -  maybe even a regular practice in those days - lost in the mists of time.  The locking incidentally is typical of the GWR in the 1920s (and probably earlier) with a lot of it driven by/through the FPL lever- a practice which fortunately later fell into disfavour because of teh safety risks inherent in it - thus you had the seemingly strange situation noted by 'Happy Hippo' of conflicting signals not directly locking each other.

 

By the way before anybody mentions it don't confuse what happened at Ashburton with normal ways of working a GWR branch terminus.  And apologies to Steve for jumping into this off topic discussion when it is rather late in the day.

 

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>>>What the oddity was at Moretonhampstead was the position of the Home Signal - set back from the point toe- not the position of the ground disc.   Normally they would be co-located but quite why that wasn't the case here is something -  maybe even a regular practice in those days - lost in the mists of time....

 

It's difficult to be certain without very good photos - you can't simply walk to your local BLT and take a look nowadays :-( - but I was always under the impression that, unless circumstances dictated otherwise, the locking bar was in rear of the point toe and then the main running signal was in rear of the locking bar. However the shunt disc could be at the toe if the disc was not led by the FPL in the locking. That was certainly the case at Blue Anchor when the siding was in existence. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

3. From then onwards, including the engine run round, any shunting movement simply draws back clear of the ground disc (and the facing point lock bar ;)) at the point toe, so the Home Signal does not apply to such a movement but the ground disc does.

 

 

So using my earlier example of a Light Engine arriving at Moretonhampstead Down Home Signal set 'to on'; would it be correct to say that if the Ground Disc was cleared that the Engine could proceed past the Home Signal into the Loop?

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20 minutes ago, Pannier Tank said:

 

So using my earlier example of a Light Engine arriving at Moretonhampstead Down Home Signal set 'to on'; would it be correct to say that if the Ground Disc was cleared that the Engine could proceed past the Home Signal into the Loop?

But that is not the same as a shunting movement coming Up the line from the station.

 

IMHO the driver would have to get the signalman's hand-signal or verbal authorisation to pass the DH at danger. 

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........continued.

Back from the Paintshop, the first task is to install the Optical Fibre for the signal lamp.

The "Lens" end of the fibre is heated by bringing it very close to the hot soldering iron, causing the end to swell.

The fibre is then threaded through the Lamp and routed down the post to the Baseplate.

RIMG0055.jpg.4c0d69e0b65cb9d74091d247f712b2d5.jpg

The fibre is bent tightly where it exits the Lamp causing light leakage which is the Backlight.

Because this is a solid post, the fibre is tie-wrapped to it with fine cotton.

 

RIMG0054.jpg.72393b3ad9275c27ddcac20b554dced2.jpg

Quite unobtrusive??

 

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The fibre is threaded down thru' the Baseplate.

 

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Emerging below ground, it is covered in Heat Shrink for protection.

 

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The bottom end terminates in a 3D printed socket.

 

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The socket is a "bayonet" fit in the LED holder.

Supply has a 1000 ohm resister to match a 12v DC power feed.

 

RIMG0063.jpg.6f51c88ffd7d40471ea7f75386570b2c.jpg

The LED is a "Gaslight" from Helmsman Electronics.

Unfortunately these are not currently available since Geoff Helm retired.

His business has gone to Peco, but they won't say when the products will be available again.

 

RIMG0064.jpg.567718c21932b08ee3d3bb7b8b6952d1.jpg

The effect seems to be quite a reasonable "oil lamp" colour.

 

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The Green results from the Yellowish light and the Blue spectacle.

 

With the lighting sorted, the various moving bits and pieces were added.

 

RIMG0049.jpg.8826d2e69281f9d17c909cd7f27131c1.jpg

The Weight Bar is fitted in its Bearing, using a 0.45mm lace pin as the pivot.

The operating wire is 0.4mm N/S wire.

It passes into its "Guide Tube"  of 1/16in brass tube.

 

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Within the Guide Tube, the Operating Wire is sheathed in 1/32in brass tube, soldered at the bottom.

This ensures that the operating wire is protected from buckling, and the tube-in-tube is an excellent bearing.

The connection to the servo will later be made from 1/16in brass tube.

 

RIMG0052.jpg.09baa36e270745bed1197b4411d78e42.jpg

The Down Rod is passed thru' the rod guides.

 

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and attached to the Weight Bar.

 

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and Signal Arm.

 

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Attaching the Back Blinder completes the "moving parts" on the signal itself.

 

RIMG0056.jpg.a3dddadfeb3aa3035c2230fb0d83ea72.jpg

Stained wood planking is fitted to the Lampman's Stage.

 

Fitting the servo and testing the signal will be next..................

 

Steve.

 

 

Edited by Steve Hewitt
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Fitting the servo.......

 

The Moretonhampstead signals will all be installed on 9mm ply baseboards.

They will be delivered on their Transport & Test Frame, which is a simulation of their installation.

 

RIMG0082.jpg.e0e963b5bdf2e4e5703dffcd882d7562.jpg

The Transport & Test Frame.

Drilled for three signals with 1/2in location tubes and 4 Ground Discs with 5/16in tubes.

 

RIMG0081.jpg.6b89d0e80dde16ea9a326e8adc839616.jpg

The servo is mounted on a bespoke wooden frame.

This ensures the servo Horn aligns with the signal's operating wire.

 

RIMG0083.jpg.1ad2f6f0c154bdcf3f3ae6dc0eb71d61.jpg

 short length of 1/2 brass tube is used to align the parts.

 

RIMG0084.jpg.b8ca55d08ff7936f3cbf9b2371d67e14.jpg

The view from below.

 

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Secured in Place.

 

RIMG0080.jpg.38dcadf4f044bb7a3a227a214bdb0774.jpg

The connection between the operating wire and the servo is formed from 1/16in. brass tube.

This is fitted with the servo in the "Safe" position. i.e. Set by the GF controller to mid-throw.RIMG0088.jpg.94277b38d2c0cb6c2156d689ee0e0461.jpg

With the servo in Safe position, the arm is set to its corresponding mid position,

then the connecting tube is soldered to the operating wire.

It now just requires the signal arm adjusting to Danger and Clear using the GF controller.

 

I'll try to make a video of this shortly...........

 

 Steve

 

 

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Initially I'd be doing the mechanical setup by setting the servo horn and signal arm to their mid point, i.e. with the servo horn perpendicular to the axis of the signal operating rod. Then I realised that this was where I got most vertical movement of the servo horn and have changed to using servo horn perpendicular for signal arm on (danger, stop). This way I get most bang for my buck when setting up any bounce.

 

With respect to the controller I arrange for this on (danger, stop). position not to be at the full limit of travel setting so there's still an degree of adjustment available to fine tune everything once the signal and servo is installed in situ.

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4 hours ago, Chris White said:

Initially I'd be doing the mechanical setup by setting the servo horn and signal arm to their mid point, i.e. with the servo horn perpendicular to the axis of the signal operating rod. Then I realised that this was where I got most vertical movement of the servo horn and have changed to using servo horn perpendicular for signal arm on (danger, stop). This way I get most bang for my buck when setting up any bounce.

 

With respect to the controller I arrange for this on (danger, stop). position not to be at the full limit of travel setting so there's still an degree of adjustment available to fine tune everything once the signal and servo is installed in situ.

Not 'bouce again?  GWR/WR semaphore arms were moved by a down rod, a substantial steel rod with a very limited amount of 'whip' in it and that was well controlled by guides.  To replace a signal arm to f danger the rod moved vertically downwards and it was attached to teh balance - so the anr could only bounce if the balance weight bounced and gravity tended to stop that happening.  With a steel post signal thrown (hard) back to danger the post could sometimes sway, but there was no bounce; if replaced to danger properly there was no sway.  Over the years I have seen being replaced to danger, or have personally replaced to danger, hundreds of Western LQ signals and I have never seen one bounce - vibrate a bit - yes; sometimes even sway a bit when a heavy handed Signalman was working or a timber post was well past its renew buy date.

 

On occasion I even tried to make one bounce - all it did was make the post sway an almost imperceptible amount.  You might possibly get some bounce if there was a lot of slop in various components but that's about it and even then it would be imperceptible in 4mm scale   UQ signals with only a signal wire to the arm and with a rubber insert in the arm stop could bounce a little and could be made to bounce a bit more if really thrown back to danger.

 

Far more common of course to see some hesitancy in the movement of a signal arm when it is being pulled off and a Signalman changes his grip on the lever or doesn't swing the lever steadily in the correct manner using his body weight to gain stroke on the lever.

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13 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Not 'bouce again?  GWR/WR semaphore arms were moved by a down rod, a substantial steel rod with a very limited amount of 'whip' in it and that was well controlled by guides.  To replace a signal arm to f danger the rod moved vertically downwards and it was attached to teh balance - so the anr could only bounce if the balance weight bounced and gravity tended to stop that happening.  With a steel post signal thrown (hard) back to danger the post could sometimes sway, but there was no bounce; if replaced to danger properly there was no sway.  Over the years I have seen being replaced to danger, or have personally replaced to danger, hundreds of Western LQ signals and I have never seen one bounce - vibrate a bit - yes; sometimes even sway a bit when a heavy handed Signalman was working or a timber post was well past its renew buy date.

 

On occasion I even tried to make one bounce - all it did was make the post sway an almost imperceptible amount.  You might possibly get some bounce if there was a lot of slop in various components but that's about it and even then it would be imperceptible in 4mm scale   UQ signals with only a signal wire to the arm and with a rubber insert in the arm stop could bounce a little and could be made to bounce a bit more if really thrown back to danger.

 

Far more common of course to see some hesitancy in the movement of a signal arm when it is being pulled off and a Signalman changes his grip on the lever or doesn't swing the lever steadily in the correct manner using his body weight to gain stroke on the lever.

 

<Takes a deep breathe before questioning The Stationmaster because my knowledge is miniscule and mainly from books...>

 

The "Arm stop" in old pattern signals contained a sprung buffer to absorb the impact when the boss plate swung down onto it. That could explain a certain amount of bounce when arms return to danger, couldn't it?

 

(Ref: GWR Signalling Practice page 82.)

 

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Video evidence for bounce on the old style signals was quite pronounced, I remember seeing (at least the start) a film set in WW2 about farming etc land army etc very little on the railway except the start where a bracket signal bounced prodigously. Sorry can' remember the title perhaps someone can?

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45 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

<Takes a deep breathe before questioning The Stationmaster because my knowledge is miniscule and mainly from books...>

 

The "Arm stop" in old pattern signals contained a sprung buffer to absorb the impact when the boss plate swung down onto it. That could explain a certain amount of bounce when arms return to danger, couldn't it?

 

(Ref: GWR Signalling Practice page 82.)

 

It was no doubt there to absorb the upward force, I doubt it could force back the down rod and balance weight.  And the centre pivot arms were well known for developing a 'notch' as a result of the stop arrangement used for some of them

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