Semaphore Signals - 4mm Scale (Mainly)

[Steve Hewitt]

A cry for help.....

 

My next signals are destined for a model of Carlisle and are on the Goods lines between Bog Jct and Rome St.

 

They are all lattice constructions with Upper Quad. arms.

I think they were originally North British installations.

 

These photos are all I have to work from:

 

First this tall single arm signal:

 

Questions:

1.  I can see there is a ladder, but no Lampman's stage. - would this have used a Windlass to raise the lamp?

2.  Where is the balance arm and weight?

 

There are three very similar balanced brackets required:

(This first picture also shows the tall lattice in the background)

 

 

Question:

3.  I think the balance arms are low down on the main stem?

4.  How are they connected to the Signal Arm? I can see no cranks, rocking shafts etc.

 

In the first bracket picture there are three wires running downwards from the signal.

Does the middle one run directly from the signal arm to the crank?

It seems to line up like that.

The other two could be guy wires.

 

If anyone has any more photos of these locations, or detail info on the construction of particularly the brackets, I'll be most grateful.

 

Steve.

 

[Welly]

I don't know if you have seen this thread but Lochty no more has been restoring a real NBR lattice signal and has taken many photos of the restoration in case they help?

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/56511-signal-a-e/page-4

[Steve Hewitt]

I don't know if you have seen this thread but Lochty no more has been restoring a real NBR lattice signal and has taken many photos of the restoration in case they help?

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/56511-signal-a-e/page-4

Hi Welly,

 

Thanks for the link. It's extremely interesting, just spent an hour reading it all!

Unfortunately, the detail I require is refers to the LNER/BR period, when conversion to Upper Quadrant had been done.

 

I can't think that they moved the Windlass round the post to the other side, as required for an upper quad. spectacle plate?

 

Steve.

[Jon Fitness]

I know it's probably not a good idea to guess but I would suggest for the straight post :-

The arm would have been re-positioned lower when changed from lower to upper quadrant.

The ladder remained sufficiently close to the back of the lamp for the lampman to service it.

As far as the brackets are concerned, I think the weight bars are at the base of the main post and the NBR were quite keen on pulley wheels!

Maybe a certain Mr Nicholson would know?............

JF

[Steve Hewitt]

Here's a signal I built some time ago for Liverpool Lime Street:

 

 

I've just been doing some maintenance work on it, and will take it with me to Warley to have on my Demo Stand; E17.

 

Because of its location on the layout, the servos have to be off-set some distance below their normal level, hence the screwed rods and long brass foundation tubes:

 

Here are the twelve servos and their connections to the operating wires:

 

And finally a bit of detail of the rocking shafts etc.:

 

I'll have the signal connected up to one of the new GF Controls eight way servo controllers.

Come along and have a play with it.

 

Steve.

[Jon Fitness]

Here's a signal I built some time ago for Liverpool Lime Street:

 

P1000619.jpg

 

I've just been doing some maintenance work on it, and will take it with me to Warley to have on my Demo Stand; E17.

 

Because of its location on the layout, the servos have to be off-set some distance below their normal level, hence the screwed rods and long brass foundation tubes:

P1000617.jpg

 

Here are the twelve servos and their connections to the operating wires:

P1000618.jpg

 

And finally a bit of detail of the rocking shafts etc.:

P1000620.jpg

 

I'll have the signal connected up to one of the new GF Controls eight way servo controllers.

Come along and have a play with it.

 

Steve.

I've got one of those GF 8 way boards myself ready for a gantry on Saltney. I'll certainly come along and have a play!

Who's etched arms did you use on the gantry? Very nice..

JF

[Steve Hewitt]

I've got one of those GF 8 way boards myself ready for a gantry on Saltney. I'll certainly come along and have a play!

Who's etched arms did you use on the gantry? Very nice..

JF

Hi Jon,

 

Look forward to seeing you again.

The arms are Alan Gibson I think, Blade, Spectacle  and five "rivets" all separate!

 

Steve.

[Steve Hewitt]

Here we are then....Back to the Carlisle project.

 

 

I've made a start on this batch of four signals.

Working from an MSE etch, I've made up all the arms, balance arms and their bearings etc.

 

The first signal structure is the tall lattice post, with the arm mounted some way below the top.

 

The main post is an MSE etch for a 45ft post.

 

The ladder required two etches to be joined to make up the required length.

 

The bearing for the balance arm is in place:

 

As are the guides for the operating wires:

These aren't really prototypical, but are necessary to prevent the 0.4mm N/S wire I shall use from buckling when pushing the arm back to Danger.

 

The arm bearing and lamp bracket are built onto a sub-assembly prior to attaching to the post:

 

Following my usual practice, the signal's foundations include the brass tube to ensure accurate alignment with the servos at installation.

 

That's about as far as I'm taking this signal for now.

I'll be making up the three bracket signals to a similar state before they are all sent to the paint shop.

 

Steve.

[wychcan]

Steve, are any of you signals removable,

i was thinking along the lines of an exhibition layout where singnals have to be removed,

if so do you take out the servo and signal, as one, or just the signal...and how do you easily conect the two halves together?

Or any ideas on how this might be achievied?

thanks

Nigel

[Steve Hewitt]

Hi Nigel,

 

I describe my signals as being "semi-permanent" installations.

By disconnecting the operating links from the servos, and the fibre optics from the LEDs, they can be removed quite easily.

The servos are designed to remain in-situ on the layout, and the signals transported separately.

 

I have in the past built signals with spring loaded plungers incorporated in the base.

One plunger for each arm.

These plungers then rested on the servo arms rather than being connected  to them.

The signals could be readily removed and replaced.

 

I think the footprint of a 4mm scale signal is a bit too small to allow it to be permanently attached to its servos, and the whole to be dropped into place on the layout.

This is definitely possible in 7mm scale, and you should look carefully at Jon Fitness's topic:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/11497-jon-fitness-average-7mm-signals-workbench/

if this is of interest.

 

Hope this helps.

Steve.

[IanSpalding]

 

Here we are then....Back to the Carlisle project.

 

 

I've made a start on this batch of four signals.

Working from an MSE etch, I've made up all the arms, balance arms and their bearings etc.

 

The first signal structure is the tall lattice post, with the arm mounted some way below the top.

 

The main post is an MSE etch for a 45ft post.

 

Steve,

 

Thank you for your many postings which have helped me in starting my first signals.  It just so happens that my first signal is a tall LSWR co-acting signals so I have been using the MSE etch as well:

 

 

I have slightly changed the mounting although still using your turned brass tubes.  I couldn't see how you firmly attached the signal into the board apart from relying on a tight push fit and the attachments to the servo to hold the signal.  So I've added 6BA bolts to the brass plate and then this also holds the servo board in place (still to be made).  Also a positive attachment for the signal itself into the tube.

 

 

I used the MSE ladders but the sides slightly thinned (as they are overscale but even thinned are too thick) and rungs of 0.2mm wire (which are to scale).  Unfortunately scale ladders are extremely flimsy so I had to compromise.  Southwark Bridge Models make some to scale but they are frightenly fragile.  I added guides for the wires but made them slightly different to yours and they look reasonably like those in some pictures:

 

 

I'm currently building a similar tall signal (home/distant) and then can paint them before attaching the arms and operating wires etc.

 

Regards,

 

Ian Spalding

[Steve Hewitt]

Steve,

 

Thank you for your many postings which have helped me in starting my first signals.  It just so happens that my first signal is a tall LSWR co-acting signals so I have been using the MSE etch as well:

image0001.jpg

 

image0002.jpg

 

I have slightly changed the mounting although still using your turned brass tubes.  I couldn't see how you firmly attached the signal into the board apart from relying on a tight push fit and the attachments to the servo to hold the signal.  So I've added 6BA bolts to the brass plate and then this also holds the servo board in place (still to be made).  Also a positive attachment for the signal itself into the tube.

 

image0005.jpg

 

I used the MSE ladders but the sides slightly thinned (as they are overscale but even thinned are too thick) and rungs of 0.2mm wire (which are to scale).  Unfortunately scale ladders are extremely flimsy so I had to compromise.  Southwark Bridge Models make some to scale but they are frightenly fragile.  I added guides for the wires but made them slightly different to yours and they look reasonably like those in some pictures:

 

image0004.jpg

 

I'm currently building a similar tall signal (home/distant) and then can paint them before attaching the arms and operating wires etc.

 

Regards,

 

Ian Spalding

Hi Ian,

 

That's a fine signal, it looks really well.

 

To answer your points:

I do just rely on the fit of the "Mounting Tube" in the baseboard and servo board to hold it in place.

If its too sloppy, a turn of masking tape on the tube will sort it out!

 

I admire your use of the MSE built up ladder!

I can never get them straight.

I use the etched ones, with fine Nickel Silver wire soldered down the stile to give strength and depth.

This is then carefully filed along the edges to thin it down and make the edge flat.

 

Your guides look just right.

They are necessary on your Lower Quadrant prototype, since the arm is moved by pushing up on the "down rod", which could easily buckle.

On my Upper Quadrant prototype, they didn't exist, as the wire is in tension to clear the signal, and hangs slack when the arm returns to danger.

 

Steve.

[45609]

I admire your use of the MSE built up ladder!

I can never get them straight.

I use the etched ones, with fine Nickel Silver wire soldered down the stile to give strength and depth.

This is then carefully filed along the edges to thin it down and make the edge flat.

 

Steve,

I had that problem with the rung and stile ladders until I came up with a simple solution. Prepare the rung and stile ladders with over length pieces of wire threaded through the holes and a dab of solder cream added on each end at the joint with the stile. When it's all ready just place it on a baking tray in the oven at 200degC. After a few minutes the solder will have melted, made the joints and the ladder will be perfectly straight. Clean up takes a while but is eased by using a cutting disc in the mini drill.

cheer....Morgan

Edited December 29, 2013 by mlgilbert30

[Steve Hewitt]

Morgan,

 

That's certainly worth a try, when my wife's not watching. 

 

Steve.

[Pete Bevan]

Wow Steve, and I thought the next step on from installing a Ratio signal would be a straight forward process!! Your posts have been most inspiring and have pushed me to want to investigate signal building more thoroughly.

 

A couple of quick questions:

 

I notice that you use several suppliers for signal components. Would a basic kit from MSE with your added bearings and mods be suitable to start off signal building with or would you recommend more of a mix and match route.

 

How do the signals with their bases get blended into the layout. You mention that they are a semi-permanent installation and are removable but the ones that you have removed from Liverpool Lime Street don't seem to have any ballast/ undergrowth surrounding them.

 

Do you ever get involved with the installation, more specifically, how dummy pulley runs would terminate at the signal?

 

Also do you have a list of basic and prefered tools that you would recomend before comencing work and discovering and internet order needs to be made before any real progress can be made (my usual state of affairs!)

 

Thanks in advance

 

Pete

[Steve Hewitt]

Hello Pete

 

I'll try to answer your questions, but unfortunately my PC has "gone sick", so I'm having to use iPad, on which typing isn't as easy!!!!!

 

Kits?

An excellent place to start.

If you are modelling a particular prototype you may well need to use separate components.

 

Bases?

The Lime Street signals I've removed are from Platform locations which haven't yet been completed.

They will eventually have planking or stone slabs added.

Most often just a blending coat of paint is all that is necessary.

 

Installation.

This left to the layout owners. (Cop out!)

 

Tools?

Binocular magnifying lenses.

Lots of light.

Then, general hand tools are all you require.

Power tools can make life easier, and can save time.

Most used:

Stainless steel rule, 150m long.

Engineers square, 4in.

Parallel jaw pliers.

Snipe nose pliers, extra fine point.

Tweezers.

Pin vices

HSS Drills 0.4mm upwards.

Piercing saw with very fine blade.

Hand file No 4 cut 8in long for brass (best you you can find)

Cheap file No 2 cut for White Metal (keep files separate)

Temp controlled soldering iron.

Small bench vice (jaws must be parallel and close fully)

Garryflex block or emery boards.

Off cuts of wood etc for making jigs and guides.

 

I'm sure there are others I use regularly, but those are a good start.

You certainly won't need them all from day 1.

 

If you experience any problems with you signal building, I'll be pleased to try to help.

Good luck, and let us know how you get on.

 

Steve.

[Pete Bevan]

Hi Steve,

 

That's a great offer for help, I am currently in the middle of track building but will start gathering together some research of prototypes and finalise the details. I'm sure I will be back for more!

[Steve Hewitt]

Tools I forgot to mention:

 

A pair of "Needlework" snips.

For cutting brass bits from etched sheets.

You can completely remove the half etched tab right up to the side of the component.

When I get my PC back I'll photograph the pair I use.

 

My butane torch for heavy duty soldering.

You can get them in good Kitchen Suppliers.

Needs to have an adjustable flame which gives a fine point.

 

These two can really save time and effort.

 

Steve.

 

With Thanks and Best Wishes for a Happy New Year to all who find my ramblings of some interest.  

[Gruffalo]

Steve, the whole thread is inspirational but for me, taking the first step is about managing time first and foremost. Please keep it up so when I am less time-sparse I can start. I want all my signals (ground and post) to be operational but I seem to have taken on a significant project for RMWeb Live!

[The Stationmaster]

Steve, the whole thread is inspirational but for me, taking the first step is about managing time first and foremost. Please keep it up so when I am less time-sparse I can start. I want all my signals (ground and post) to be operational but I seem to have taken on a significant project for RMWeb Live!

 

This might be of interest Gruff - I noticed it mentioned in RM but I haven't seen any other comments about it anywhere

 

http://www.peco-uk.com/page.asp?id=switch

[Jon Fitness]

This might be of interest Gruff - I noticed it mentioned in RM but I haven't seen any other comments about it anywhere

 

http://www.peco-uk.com/page.asp?id=switch

Looks good, a new driver board on the market is always a good thing. There's quite a few available now so hopefully the cost will come down as they become more popular.

I'm not convinced that using servos directly coupled to the points is a good idea. I think more of the movement of the servo should be used to avoid twitching of it from inadvertantly moving the points under a train. I'm trying to come up with a design that uses almost the full sweep of the servo to move the points by moving a slider a short distance in the middle of its throw. Any slight twitch is then absorbed into "dead movement". it also has the advantage of not holding the servo under any mechanical strain at the extent of each movement....not achieved it yet though (never been much of an inventor sadly  )

JF

[Gruffalo]

Thanks Stationmaster. I have already got a couple of NCE Switch8 units to go with my PowerCab, some Tortoise motors and a whole heap of Peco and SEEP solenoid motors. I intend using the Switch8s with the Tortoises and keeping the solenoid motors for signal operations.Very unprototypically, they will not be interlocked but I will be happy with working signals. It seems I may be somewhat diverted in doing something for the RMWeb Live event in September so yet another delay on Penswear!

[Grovenor]

I'm trying to come up with a design that uses almost the full sweep of the servo to move the points

An alternative is to use the

connecting the servo where my fingers are.

[Suzie]

Servos shouldn't twitch. If you have twitchy servos then it would be cheaper and a lot less messing about to buy new servos that don't twitch. The TowerPro ones I have don't twitch and you don't get much cheaper than those.

 

A mechanical solution like those shown in the video (and which Rovex used on the Triang System 2 points!) has the other benefit which is not to be sniffed at of moving the spring force holding the switch rail against the stock rail away from the servo which is a good thing.

 

I guess that some controllers might be a bit twitchy, but the only one I have seen twitching is the ESU Switchpilot Servo and only then when it was first powered up, the whole layout was twitching a miniscule amount until the first point was moved when they all suddenly stopped, but the twitching was not enough to see the servos moving, you can just hear them.

[Jon Fitness]

Servos shouldn't twitch. If you have twitchy servos then it would be cheaper and a lot less messing about to buy new servos that don't twitch. The TowerPro ones I have don't twitch and you don't get much cheaper than those.

 

A mechanical solution like those shown in the video (and which Rovex used on the Triang System 2 points!) has the other benefit which is not to be sniffed at of moving the spring force holding the switch rail against the stock rail away from the servo which is a good thing.

 

I guess that some controllers might be a bit twitchy, but the only one I have seen twitching is the ESU Switchpilot Servo and only then when it was first powered up, the whole layout was twitching a miniscule amount until the first point was moved when they all suddenly stopped, but the twitching was not enough to see the servos moving, you can just hear them.

I know they shouldn't twitch but occasionally, a loco with poor or dirty pickups will make it's presence felt via the wiring for the servos! There's a couple on our layout that twitched when certain locos went past. I changed the servos, no difference, swapped the driver boards, no difference. I had to move the wiring to the other side of the baseboard to make any difference...

Jon F.