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Consisting Class 37, Issue or imagination ?


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Hi

Today, I have finally found out how to consist 2 loco's thanks to a trip to Worcester to see DCC Supplies.

( Thanks Fiona for your help )

Tonight on my return, I have my 2 DRS Class 37's running in consist with my nuclear flasks as is prototypical, this is why I wanted to learn how it was done.

My sound fitted 37 510 is the ' leading loco ' as instructed, with 37 688 trailing at the rear.

They run fine in one direction, but in the other, 510 'squeals' at certain points of my layout.

( I have a longish continual circuit layout which measures 24ft x 9th )

My imagination (?) problem,is that I believe both loco's motors are getting warm, not alot, but enough to cause me concern.

As I write this, I have had a Hornby Class 60 running around with 8 loaded wagons for the same amount of time,and this isn't getting warm at all.

Does anyone know if this is normal,or have I answered my own question in thinking it isn't ?

Obviously, I am thinking burnt out motors here.

I must admit, I've never gone round feeling the loco's after running sessions before, but this is concerning me enough to ask for some assistance.

Any of your experiences will be most welcome

 

PS. Both loco,s run almost identical with regard to speed, so it isn,t that one is pulling or shoving the other.

Edited by Superrams
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I am not an expert in this matter but I have a Bachmann sound-fitted class 37 matched to a Bachmann sound-fitted class 25. This was achieved with help from others on this forum. They run perfectly together in silent mode but are hopelessly out of sync with either (or both) sound(s) switched on. So, my first thought would be "were the locos matched with sound on or off" because they will only run properly together in the manner in which they were matched. Secondly, locos do seem to run differently sometimes in one direction from the way they run in the other, making matching frustrating. Finally is the matter of how clean is the track.in the area wher squealing occurs? If one loco slows because of difficulty picking up the DCC signal, the other will push/pull it - and it can happen in one direction only. I haven'y any comments (in context of the question) on the warming motors.

 

I am sure others will have helpful comments.

 

Harold.

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Thanks Harold for your info.Yes perhaps you are correct with your track cleanliness theory, this is something i will investigate tomorrow now.

The thing i am wondering ,is that no two loco's will run dead on accurate with each other, ( so i'm told ), so i wonder if for example the lead loco is pulling the non lead loco therefore straining the motor ??

I don't know yet. Tomorrow also, i will run both loco's individually to see if the sound loco in particular does run warm anyhow, and is this normal.

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Hi Super Ram

Just as a process of elimination....have you tried running just one of your 37's for a while, and see if that gets similarly warm.....let it go completely cold before you try the excercise. Most locos get warm after sustained running......but you are quite right to get concerned if they overheat. My Clayton did recently, and eventually gave up the ghost billowing smoke. .I havent done any consisting yet....5yrs into dcc....but am interested to hear the outcome of your problem.

Up the Potters.

Bob.

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I just noticed you are running a sound loco with a non sound loco..........I tried this about 3 yrs ago with a pair of class 20's.......IMPOSSIBLE.!!!!!

 

The non sound loco starts immediatley.....whereas the sound loco has a delay while the brakes blow off etc.,

 

I eventually gave up, and removed the worm gears in the non sound loco, so it is free wheeling, i.e. not driven at all. I always run them as a pair.....this was the best option.

 

Bob

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Cheers Bob

 

Up the who ? Lets not get onto football, the Rams are poorly at the moment !! But we'll be back ( ?? ) :beee:

 

Back to the issue in hand, yep, removing the worm gear is an option, but i have Bachmann's Ltd Edition 37's 510 & 688 and i wanted to run them together.

Fiona didn't think running a sound model with a non sound was a problem at all, only to make sure that the sound loco was the leading loco, but yes, i agree that the non sound loco will move momentarily before the sound version.

I didn't notice this earlier so there couldn't have been much delay or i would have noticed it

As explained earlier, i intend to run both loco's on their own at length tomorrow to see if they just get a little warm anyway as normal, or not ! :scratchhead:

I certainly don't want to blow these two up, there is approx £300 worth of loco's here !!

Edited by Superrams
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Hi,

 

I have an interest in US Outline, so running consisted units is very prototypical. Essentially what you want to do is match the locos as closely as possible before you attempt to consist them. This can be done by playing around with the cv's for motor control but mainly by adjusting the loco's speed tables so that they operate at a similar speed for a similar throttle setting. This is the time consuming bit though as it is purely trial and error. I usually start by selecting a lead loco and I will not touch the settings on this unless I absolutely have to. Then I consist the lead with the trailing loco but I don't couple them, I set them apart on the layout. Then I start the consist and run it up to my desired running speed and see if the gap between the locos increases or decreases, if it does then I make changes to the trailing locos, speed table to speed it up or down. Then I do the same again, but maybe at half throttle. Then again at a stable running speed. When you've been through this process, you should be able to place the locos about 10cm apart, start them up to full throtle and bring them back to stationary while maintianing the gap (as near as makes no difference). If you can't get them exactly the same, put the quickest one at the front.

 

Also, I believe I read somewhere that you should turn off any kind of advanced motor control like back emf, if one loco is pushing harder, then the other one will be trying to slow itself down, causing the other one to push harder still. An endless loop which might be why your loco's are warming up.

 

As others have said, there are allot of things that affect the speed of a loco, which direction it is travelling in, type of decoder fitted, sound on or off, maybe even the number of other loco's on the layout. It's a bit of a minefield.

 

Hope you get there, Mark.

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I would agree with Vonzack. I do a lot of consisting with my North American N-gauge locos. You need to get them closely matched and put the faster one in the lead if they aren't exactly matched. For roundy-round continuous-speed operation (i.e. watching trains go by), it may only be necessary to get them to match at the intended operating speed, but otherwise you do need to match them through the range. Pick one loco as the 'standard' and match the others to it step-by-step (in 28-step mode) with the advanced speed tables. If that is a bit much, you can frequently get close by using Start/Mid/Max speed settings.

 

Digitrax decoders default to switching off BEMF when they are in an advanced consist, I'm not sure about others. Note that, if you are going to run with BEMF off in the consist, you should speed-match the locos with BEMF disabled - the throttle response may be significantly different depending on the BEMF setting. Also, the acceleration/deceleration settings may affect things - as a rule I don't use them.

 

Adrian

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I just noticed you are running a sound loco with a non sound loco..........I tried this about 3 yrs ago with a pair of class 20's.......IMPOSSIBLE.!!!!!

 

The non sound loco starts immediatley.....whereas the sound loco has a delay while the brakes blow off etc.,

 

 

 

Bob

 

Sorry Bob but I disagree.

 

I have been succesfully consisting non sound with sound for yrs. Both Loksound and QSI.

 

The secret is doing full 28 step speed curves in both locos.

 

The first speed step, sometimes the second speed step, in non sound decoder is set at zero (0) the thottle is opened slowly which gives the sound loco a chance to catch up.

 

The problem is not so evident when op QSI chips.

 

I do realize some can not be bothered and fair enough but to say it is impossible is just not right.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

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Sorry for the delay in replying guys, been away for a couple of days

 

Some good suggestions and theories, i was told at DCC supplies Ian that should the two loco's in question been as near as damn it running together, then there should be no problem, however common sense says it just can't be right if they are not perfectly in sync,as one of the loco's will be straining pulling the other

I understand your suggestion regarding speed steps, but i'm not sure how to do this, and Fiona said at DCC that this can be complicated to do if you haven't done this previously ??

The easiest suggestion is yours Bob,by removing the drive gear and running ine loco 'dead'. A pity to have to do this, but this does eliminate any questions regarding this issue

I have ran some of my loco's at length today, and they all become warm, something ive never noticed before, well you wouldn't would you,its not something you look for normally is it?

I am not happy with the arrangement i have though guys,the last thing i want to do is burn the motors out of two Ltd Edition Class 37's which i am frightened of doing.

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Sorry Bob but I disagree.

 

I have been succesfully consisting non sound with sound for yrs. Both Loksound and QSI.

 

The secret is doing full 28 step speed curves in both locos.

 

The first speed step, sometimes the second speed step, in non sound decoder is set at zero (0) the thottle is opened slowly which gives the sound loco a chance to catch up.

 

The problem is not so evident when op QSI chips.

 

I do realize some can not be bothered and fair enough but to say it is impossible is just not right.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

 

Ian ,

you are quite right to disagree.......and now having just aquired the lenz 23151 PC interface.....and had a play with Decoder Pro 3, I am now in a position to eat my words in the very near future.

First, I will refit the worm gear in my non sound class 20....then do as you say, set the first one or two speed steps to zero.

 

This isnt easy if you dont have an interface to a pc......and very much trial and error, and time consuming.

 

However Superam........the safe bet in the short term would be to do the worm gear removal. If I have some success dealing with my class 20......I'll let you know,. It might give you confidence to tackle altering the apprpriate cv's yourself.

 

Bob

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Hi Bob, I am pleased you have got decoderpro it certainly does make things much easier.

 

When I started in DCC 17yrs ago there was no computer interfaces and no programs like DP.

 

We had to learn to do it the hard way. Even speed curves which were a lot more convoluted than now..

 

In those days if one speed step was wrong the whole speed curve had to be altered not just the offending speed curve.

 

When you get youre locos op in consist with 1st or 2nd some times even 3rd speed step set at zero the throtle has to be opened slowly to give the sound loco a chance to catch up.

 

All bets are off if throttle is not opened slowly.

 

I open thottle slowly, pause untill sound locostarts to move then open throttle further.

 

Takes a little getting used to but teaches to drive the locos properly.

 

I also adjust CVs3 & 4 (acceleration/deceleration) ineach loco to suit.

 

Best of luck with decoderpro.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

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