York MRS 2013

[Coach bogie]

Good show with a good variety of layouts. The debate re concession prices will rumble on but remember that the costs of the show do not decrease in relation to the number of concession tickets sold and the organiser will have to set a ticket price at least covers costs. This could result in an increase in other ticket prices. Pre paid ticket option does give the discount suggested by other postings. Regarding the box shifters I was at Ally Pally last week and it was the lack of the smaller traders that were present at York that was noticeable. If you view the expo web sites it always gives traders lists so at York I do certain traders knowing they will not be at other shows and vicera versa

 

I agree with your comments. Excellent show, wish I had gone two days now. Several layouts I had not seen before. Despite being a 1930's GWR modeller, I kept returning to the 4 track WCML layout that had constant movement. Took quite some time to go through all the train sequence. Just like watching the trains by at Acton Bridge - excellent. As for trade -total spend at Ally Pally - £25 on books - York over £200 on the small trader bits and bobs I could not get at Ally Pally. I would not usually buy rtr from shows as I try to support my local model shop (Peter's Spares) on the more widely available blue and red box items where I can.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Jol Wilkinson]

There are then those show organisers that go around collecting stand number labels and exhibitors badges before closing time. Some go on to provide "security stickers" for exhibitors/ traders and organise breakdown access and parking, etc. while other encourage a shambolic free for all.

 

I shall await indignant responses from injured parties.   

[clecklewyke]

I thought it was a pretty good show. I have to confess that I find some of the larger - must cram it all in - type layouts, which are mostly club-built layouts, don't turn me on but obviously they do make it for other visitors.

 

The layouts which were outstanding for me were built by very talented individuals, and were real works of art, expressions of something which was really important to them - the late Tom Harland's Bramblewick, Steve Howe's Horsley Bank and Rod Allcock's Corris. In each case there was a real feel for place, as well as superb craftsmanship and presentation.

 

I was irritated by an old codger (well, probably no older than me but...) who commented that on the layout in front of him there was no movement  - as was the case on most layouts. I suppose he was trying to be funny but I found it quite offensive. He was looking at Bramblewick, Tom Harland's life's work, on which he had laboured hard and long, to make an absolute masterpiece. There was plenty to see on it without any trains running and, ironically, while he was making that comment there were in fact three movements beginning - up and down trains approaching the station and a loco moving off shed. A really knowledgable pedant might in fact have criticised the operators for too much movement, at a station which in real life would have seen no more than a couple of dozen trains every day. I bet this elderly critic had never exhibited a layout for three days non-stop!

 

There was excellence displayed elsewhere which I could recognise but which didn't really get my juices going - but I am sure that other folk will have had the same reactions as I did but for these other layouts, which just goes to show what a wonderfully rich and varied hobby we have!

 

Ian

[hmrspaul]

One think if I may suggest, that the York 'crew' consider a 'concession day' at this show; the Monday would be good? This might take a little of the pressure off on the Saturday? Say just a 50p reduction for sight of OP Railcard or Concessionary Bus Pass?

If someone is older like myself but is lucky enough to still be earning a bit as well as a pension then they could choose to pay the 'full rate' to support the show. 

I would like to thank all the gang at the York show. They will still be clearing up as I am here, comfy at home, typing this. Well done lads and lasses. I look forward to seeing you all again next year and then I might just twist my friend's arm and ask if I can go on two days.

Quack.

One problem being which day? Saturday - no but then the best of the 2nd hand or cheap box shifters stuff will be gone, Monday no because it is the day families come out (I guessed the average age difference between Saturday and Monday attenders was about 20 years). So, Sunday, much lighter attendance (I understand I wasn't there) but public transport much poorer.

 

The other was that the original criticism appears to have been from someone wanting a concession for the "unwaged". I suspect York has never done this ??? but how would it work, can you imagine the delays at the box office proving one is unwaged.......

 

Paul Bartlett

[PLD]

Having thoroughly enjoyed 3 days of ‘playing trains’ at York, I have to say thanks and well done to the organisers for an excellent show. Very much in keeping with the spirit and style of Mike Cook - a show for modellers by modellers and with such variety as to satisfy the majority of the audience the majority of the time.

 

A few thoughts on the areas that seem to have received criticism:

 

Positioning of Bramblewick: If the only thing people can come up with to criticise the show is the positioning of a layout, it tells me the organisers must have done a pretty good job of everything else and those persons are not satisfied unless they have something to complain about.

Bear in mind that the layout was a relatively late addition to the line-up and it would be grossly unfair to drop another layout to make way for it, so it would be a case of where it would fit rather than designing the whole show around it. Do the critics have experience of setting out shows (I do but certainly not on the scale of York) and I note we have yet to see their alternative arrangements drawn out to show that they could display Bramblewick more prominently and fit in all the layouts…

 

R-T-R content: An old chestnut which appears in almost every exhibition thread and it seems organisers can’t win whatever they do. In future I propose to save time every exhibition thread should include a poll with three options:

1. “there was too much RTR”
2. “there was not enough RTR”
3. “there was the right amount of RTR but I didn’t buy anything because it’s cheaper on line”

 

My only grounds for complaint over the whole weekend is sadly the behaviour of fellow exhibitors. Firstly ‘the Space Invaders’ I was nearly knocked off my feet by a human battering ram who then ricocheted into the layout (when behind the layout) – on politely requesting he be more careful his response was ‘I am a member of Warley MRC you know’. Then we had ‘the borrowers’… Taking and using our equipment without asking is one thing but not returning it and then grumbling when we did retrieve it is quite another (I suppose we should be grateful our kit was deemed ‘worthy’ of use on such a fine layout???)

 

Paul

[James]

can you imagine the delays at the box office proving one is unwaged.......

Assuming it's similar to how it was three years ago, you'll have your book from the Job Wombles which will confirm your status. A list on the website of what you'll accept will ensure that people have the right paperwork. And it's not as if you want to draw attention to it...

[James]

Positioning of Bramblewick: If the only thing people can come up with to criticise the show is the positioning of a layout, it tells me the organisers must have done a pretty good job of everything else and those persons are not satisfied unless they have something to complain about.

Bear in mind that the layout was a relatively late addition to the line-up and it would be grossly unfair to drop another layout to make way for it, so it would be a case of where it would fit rather than designing the whole show around it. Do the critics have experience of setting out shows (I do but certainly not on the scale of York) and I note we have yet to see their alternative arrangements drawn out to show that they could display Bramblewick more prominently and fit in all the layouts…

I understand what you're saying but bearing in mind the extra publicity surrounding the layout's appearance then the positioning was an issue judging by the reaction.

 

'Critics', especially if they've made a special effort to see Bramblewick, care not about their lack of experience in sorting exhibtion floor plans. Much like passengers who complain who don't have any operational experience from working on the railway.

 

on politely requesting he be more careful his response was ‘I am a member of Warley MRC you know’.

Reply simply with 'And?'

[298]

There are then those show organisers that go around collecting stand number labels and exhibitors badges before closing time. Some go on to provide "security stickers" for exhibitors/ traders and organise breakdown access and parking, etc. while other encourage a shambolic free for all.

 

I shall await indignant responses from injured parties.   

 

I'm not an indignant party, but long ago came to the conclusion that some people never read what is written in their exhibitors packs, and post-closing time will inevitably turn into chaos, regardless of how much effort is put into controlling it.

 

Stand numbers and exhibition badges are expensive to produce and collecting them before the show closes and they get lost can save money, so I can see why a show (especially in Yorkshire) will collect them beforehand.

[PLD]

I understand what you're saying but bearing in mind the extra publicity surrounding the layout's appearance then the positioning was an issue judging by the reaction.

 

'Critics', especially if they've made a special effort to see Bramblewick, care not about their lack of experience in sorting exhibtion floor plans. Much like passengers who complain who don't have any operational experience from working on the railway.

 Reply simply with 'And?'

Don't really want to labour the point, but show us your hall plan that has Bramblewick in a more prominent position AND all the layouts still fit without causing bottlenecks or dead ends. If you can't show us a viable alternative, you can't criticise an arangement that did fit...

[craigwelsh]

Stand numbers and exhibition badges are expensive to produce and collecting them before the show closes and they get lost can save money, so I can see why a show (especially in Yorkshire) will collect them beforehand.

In the case of York the exhibition badges had the year on them so I assume I wasn't meant to give mine back.

 

The queues for entry we could see outside from the balcony suggested very healthy numbers on all days as did the numbers in the hall. Sunday seemed the quieter day with more enthusiasts coming back on the Monday.

 

First time i've been to York and it had good layouts, traders, demos and venue imho. Hotel breakfast was rather nice too .

[t-b-g]

As a regular exhibitor for many years the security side of things has often crossed my mind, especially when I sometimes take things to shows that are not mine.

 

The easiest time for somebody to take something they shouldn't is at setting up and more especially knocking down time, when lots of people, often without any badges, which have already been collected, are carrying gear out of the hall.

 

You also have a situation where, unless you have spare bodies, if two of you are carrying big chunks of layout to a car, much is left unattended, inviting unwanted attention. Added to this, everybody else is busy seeing to their own stands/layouts and paying little attention to who is picking up boxes nearby.

 

So, for the chance of losing a few badges, I would think that having a club member by a door (or even just a bucket) for badges is a small price to pay for enhanced security.

 

York show is usually pretty good on security getting in to set up (except a friend of mine arrived early one day and the doors were opened and unmanned) but the departure is a bit of a free for all and very lax on security. It is not alone, the vast majority of shows are the same. I usually mention it when badges are collected before closing time but it seems that I am in a minority worrying about such things.

 

Tony

[Bomag]

I was irritated by an old codger (well, probably no older than me but...) who commented that on the layout in front of him there was no movement  - as was the case on most layouts. I suppose he was trying to be funny but I found it quite offensive. He was looking at Bramblewick, Tom Harland's life's work, on which he had laboured hard and long, to make an absolute masterpiece. There was plenty to see on it without any trains running and, ironically, while he was making that comment there were in fact three movements beginning - up and down trains approaching the station and a loco moving off shed. A really knowledgable pedant might in fact have criticised the operators for too much movement, at a station which in real life would have seen no more than a couple of dozen trains every day. I bet this elderly critic had never exhibited a layout for three days non-stop!

 

Ian

 

I layout without trains running is a Diorama, having said that some of the best dioramas have more things moving than many 'layouts'. 

 

I totally agree with the 'codger' about the lack of movement; the fact that this was the case on most layouts makess me glad I did not go to York this year. Having helped at exhibitions in the past it is perfecly possible to have an end to end layout, even a small one, which can be operated without having long pauses in between movements. Nick Easton's Denroyd (at Leeds last year) is a perfect point of what a good layout should be. Operatability (yuk!) should be as big a design consideration in an exhibition layout as the accuracy of the models.

 

Having met a couple of exhibiters who diliberately go for the 'authentic' timetable on immaculate models I think they are like moden classical composers; you can do what you like as long as you don't try to inflict it on me.

[Geoff Endacott]

There are other methods of dealing with security. We have one at Trainwest. I am not telling anyone what it is.

 

Geoff Endacott

[t-b-g]

There are other methods of dealing with security. We have one at Trainwest. I am not telling anyone what it is.

 

Geoff Endacott

Could you tell us then kill us?

 

Seriously, it does matter and good for you!

 

Tony

[t-b-g]

I layout without trains running is a Diorama, having said that some of the best dioramas have more things moving than many 'layouts'. 

 

I totally agree with the 'codger' about the lack of movement; the fact that this was the case on most layouts makess me glad I did not go to York this year. Having helped at exhibitions in the past it is perfecly possible to have an end to end layout, even a small one, which can be operated without having long pauses in between movements. Nick Easton's Denroyd (at Leeds last year) is a perfect point. Operatability (yuk!) should be as big a design consideration in an exhibition layout as the accuracy of the models.

 

Having met a couple of exhibiters who diliberately go for the 'authentic' timetable on immaculate models I think they are like moden classical composers; you can do what you like as long as you don't try to inflict it on me.

 

There has just been a long and interesting thread on layout operation at exhibtions but basically I agree with everything you say. But if there had only been a short gap since the previous movement and three movements were starting together on Bramblewick, I think the "codger" was a bit harsh. If there was a long gap before the three movements, perhaps the operator moving the loco off shed could have got that going first to fill the gap but I have seen Bramblewick many times and I have always thought that the operation was of as good a quality as the rest of the layout.

 

Having said that, Bramblewick is one of a very small number of layout, on which the modelling is so good that it is a shame to be watching trains all the time because you miss a real treat if you do.

 

Tony

[Guest stuartp]

I totally agree with the 'codger' about the lack of movement; the fact that this was the case on most layouts makess me glad I did not go to York this year.

 

Same layout (Bramblewick), mineral train has just departed to the left, passenger train departing to the right, still moving and half the train still in view. Loco doing something in the shed yard with an open wagon. A couple wander up, spend less than 5 seconds taking in the scene, he mutters "not much happening on this one" and they walk off. You do wonder why they bothered going at all.

 

I was only there a couple of hours and the only one I saw with absolutely nothing happening was the O-gauge quarry on the ground floor, which had a large notice on it apologizing that they had suffered a massive electrical failure and would not be operating. There were still plenty of people having a look though.

[mr roarke]

Well done to Mal and all the team that made the York Show a fantastic weekend. Also i would like to thank my team of helpers on UPSAN DOWNS. They were recruited at the last minute owing to our other friends were unable to attend. The "victims" that i managed to coerce were, Dave, Alwyn, Norman and Merf from Colwyn Bay MRC and Nathan from Halifax MRC. Considering they were thrown in at the deep end they did a really good job especially as they had not operated the layout before.

  We enjoyed the weekend very much as we like exhibiting at the York Show. Also it was the last showing of UPSAN DOWNS as we are retiring from exhibiting this year owing to health issues.Now i will have to sell off all the the stock to give me room and help finance a MUCH smaller layout as i will be lost with one.

Regards

George and Joan

[newbryford]

Well done to Mal and all the team that made the York Show a fantastic weekend.

 

Likewise to Mal and Co from the Blackmill team. Most enjoyable and well organised.

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[James]

 

Don't really want to labour the point, but show us your hall plan that has Bramblewick in a more prominent position AND all the layouts still fit without causing bottlenecks or dead ends. If you can't show us a viable alternative, you can't criticise an arangement that did fit...

 

Paul, over the weekend I was the customer - I felt a little let down given how well publicised the layout's appeearance was in not just the railway press but also the local press. End of.

 

If went to the theatre to see a production I wanted to see only to find our seats had limited visabilty without being told they would be, I would be put out. But I don't feel I have to have a working knowledge of their ticketing and booking system before I felt annoyed.

 

I am, incidentally, qualified in Project Management with the APM with practical experience of project management, planning projects medium term, planning worksites with Tiii possessions and planning and allocating resources for rail engineering work as well as P-Way designs on CAD. With the right information available, I'm sure I could have a crack at a floor plan... But as a customer I don't have to. In the same way if your train's delayed due tio engineering work I wouldn't suggest you come up with a better way of performing track renewals.

 

I enjoyed my visit to the Show, spent a bit of money and saw some lovely layouts. The trade support was excellent and the venue is one of the nicest you'll find for a weekend of small trains. Just one thing seems like a missed opportunity to me.

[Butler Henderson]

As someone who takes more note of the scenery, or lack of it, rather than the trains themselves Sunday was a great day to visit as in most cases it was was possible to take in the whole scene unobstructed. The other advantage Sunday had was that the car park that is apparently the northern bypass was actually free flowing, due to lack of shoppers, and there were no lengthy queues on roads crossing it.

[Greengiant]

Had a great time exhibiting my Whiteoak Light Railway.

Great venue, accommodation and hosts, made this a joy.

Thanks to my team of Ken, Paul and Alan without whom I could not exhibit Whiteoak.

Only had fleeting chances of seeing the rest of the show, too many punters in front of the layout to entertain.

We ran our 24 stage sequence from the time the show opened until the time it closed.

Amused at how much interest was expressed in the cup holders and the boat.

More show invite interest shown which always makes you feel good and many fine comments which are much appreciated.

Feel gutted for the layout with electrical problems, must be really frustrating after all the effort to get a layout to a show.

 

Martin

[Carl BR]

Well done for putting on a great show from the Bee Lane crew.

 

The same crew are looking forward to being there again next year with my layout Alderford.

 

Carl

[peterl]

Just a few comments from one of the organising team.

We have learned that " You can please all of the people some of the time, Some of the people all of the time, but not all of the people all of the time" A lesson well considered by all.

 

Yes the badges were dated and we hoped that Exhibitors and Traders would keep them as a reminder of their weekend at the York Show.

 

Senior Citizen Concessions.  Forget all the crap about costs please.  It is irrelevant.  Price must be based on a simple formula which is:

 

Price = the economic worth of the perceived product benefit,  I cannot see how the product benefit should be different for somebody who is on a state pension to somebody who is not! Does the benefit really change at the the point that your age does?  The team consider the product benefit to those paying at the door who are adults to be £8 so all adults who wish to receive the product benefit should pay the £8 - simple!

From one who has been on a state pension for longer that he would like to admit!

 

Peter

[MartinWales]

Having viewed the team at work (and some of which was my own!) I can fully endorse Peter's comments!

 

Here's to York 2014!

[Neil]

  

Paul, over the weekend I was the customer - I felt a little let down given how well publicised the layout's appeearance was in not just the railway press but also the local press. End of.

 

If went to the theatre to see a production I wanted to see only to find our seats had limited visabilty without being told they would be, I would be put out. But I don't feel I have to have a working knowledge of their ticketing and booking system before I felt annoyed.

 

 

 

James I think you need to take your teeth out of this one. I'm no longer a member of the York show organising team but it appears that they faced a fairly stark choice of accepting a less than ideal position of Bramblewick or not including it in the line up for the reasons that Paul has outlined above. The question I think you need to ask yourself is' would I rather have seen Bramblewick for one last time in its less than ideal location or not had the opportunity to do so? I can understand and see the frustration coming through in your posts on the subject, both from your position as spectator and I think because of your high regard for the layout, but life sometimes forces compromises upon us all.