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Sorry Mike, absolutely right on the yellow discs which I believe were a LMS imposition on the WR.

 

As an aside, under the provisions of extinguishing lamps in the summer months, I don't bother to light my signals - saves a lot of work!

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I'm sorry too Mike I did read your post, scrolled, read the diagram (badly) and then asked a stupid question because I'd got things muddled. My excuse is that it was time for bed and I had eye strain from an extended session trying to not feed so many LEDs to the carpet monster or dustbin. It's not a very good one.

 

Everything is clear now.

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Sorry Mike, absolutely right on the yellow discs which I believe were a LMS imposition on the WR.

 

As an aside, under the provisions of extinguishing lamps in the summer months, I don't bother to light my signals - saves a lot of work!

BTW I'm not entirely sure if they were an LMS imposition as they weren't the only users of them - in fact the GW seems to have been the only Company that didn't use them by the late 1930s (if not a little earlier) as far as I can trace.

 

Post 1950 of course it got really amusing with the Western using red arm discs with either a red or a white light (although the meaning of the latter was changed slightly) and also gradually introducing yellow arm discs as well (which occasionally even meant a red stripe on a disc being overpainted in yellow - so it was possible in one case to find a 1911 pattern disc with a yellow band instead of a red one).

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I'm sorry too Mike I did read your post, scrolled, read the diagram (badly) and then asked a stupid question because I'd got things muddled. My excuse is that it was time for bed and I had eye strain from an extended session trying to not feed so many LEDs to the carpet monster or dustbin. It's not a very good one.

 

Everything is clear now.

 

I'm glad it is, and nothing wrong with 'stupid' questions when it comes to things like this - it can be a bit like the idea of measuring twice and cutting once ;). The subject of GW/WR white light disc signals is not an easy one to grasp - I had to write to MRJ a good few years ago to explain it as some folk seemed to think they were used in the same way as yellow arm discs, which they very definitely weren't.

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The information that has come to light has all been relevant and very interesting. Time for an interlude to update you on the doing though. I've gone through about half of the 10 LEDs I ordered to get to this stage. It is very easy to detach the solder pads on the back with either too much thermal or mechanical stress.

 

Here's a quick step by step:

 

1. Shaping the thin wall tube (0.3mm ID, 0.5mm OD) to relieve one side for the enamelled wire to exit. The little upstand remaining after filing will be used as one solder point for the LEDs.

post-8031-0-09812500-1345149844_thumb.jpg

 

2. The first LED soldered onto the tube. I found it easier to hold the LED by sticking it into a small piece of Blu-Tac. Tacky wax might have been better, but I don't have any. Don't get the soldering iron on the Blu-Tac or the tip could suffer: the stuff goes horribly gooey when burned.

post-8031-0-12809700-1345149853_thumb.jpg

 

3. The second LED attached to some enamelled wire and inserted down the tube. Yes, a motor was harmed in the making of this. It wasn't an expensive one and I hadn't found a better use for it yet. The enamel (assuming that's what it is) on the wire has plenty of heat resistance.

post-8031-0-50322100-1345149860_thumb.jpg

 

4. This is what is hopefully the final assembly of the inner. It would appear to be small enough to fit in the 1mm diameter hole as required but I'll have to see when I've made the actual 'disc'.

post-8031-0-62944200-1345149866_thumb.jpg

 

If you're thinking that something looks different in the last photo you'd be right. The first three photos show the first attempt that went something like right with two LEDs wired in series. This wasn't robust enough and they wouldn't both light on the 3v battery I planned to use so I did some thinking and wired them in parallel. Both LEDs are soldered to the tube at the bottom and joined to the wire at the top.

 

Finally for today below is my drawing to work from, reproduced from those in some Broad Gauge Society literature. Each grid square represents one inch, however I am working on the basis of something as near as possible to a 1.5mm diameter 1.5mm tall cylindrical main section and everything else to fall into place. The body will be the next part to be constructed and the base will be the last before the mechanism to tie it in to a TOU.

 

post-8031-0-86922900-1345149880_thumb.jpg

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Hi Rich -

 

Just found your entry. Bring a dozen over next Friday will you? :no:

 

Great detail

 

Regs

 

Ian

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Here's the next bit completed. The outer part was made from 1.5mm steel drilled through on the lathe and cross drilled very carefully with a 0.3mm drill in three places with 90° separation around the circumference before parting off carefully. This was soldered onto the 0.8mm tube bored out to 0.5mm to allow a sliding fit for the internal piece with the LEDs seen previously. The difference in size between the ID of the steel and the OD of the brass was accommodated by swaging the end of the brass tube with a centre punch. The two parts were soldered in a purpose made alignment jig to maintain concentricity. The steel was blackened post soldering to achieve a nice durable weathered black that, I hope, should be durable. It's pretty tough to hold a small coin whilst taking the photo so you'll have to make do without. Dimensions are approximately 1.5mm diameter by 1.5mm tall, which means that it is almost to scale. It still requires the coloured faces and lenses adding to be complete.

 

post-8031-0-79592300-1345662256_thumb.jpg

 

I thought I had some under construction photos but they must have gone missing somewhere or I'm beginning to have senior moments early? A trial fit indicates that after drilling in the base of this piece of the puzzle a little with successively smaller drills to increase clearance the LED section should fit and allow this outer part to rotate.

 

The next part is the top. This allows access to the lamp should it need attention. I hoped that it would be possible for the LED section to be removed through the base but it quickly became clear that this would be very difficult, if not impossible, to achieve. The only reason I can think that I made it now is that the material was already chucked in the lathe. This time I do have some in progress pictures.

 

post-8031-0-08817800-1345662270_thumb.jpg

 

Above is the beginning of the work with the top necked in and the larger radius started. Below is the finished (?) piece before parting off. The bottom was finished off with a 1.5mm drill in the tailstock to allow as much clearance as possible for the LEDs, rather than having a location spigot as I might have done in any other situation. Hopefully a little canopy glue or similar will fix this little part in place once complete.

 

post-8031-0-95028400-1345662285_thumb.jpg

 

 

I pondered what to do to retain this speck of steel whilst I parted off. I've done all the turning by hand with a graver for this and needed both hands. I couldn't, therefore, wind a handle with one and play catch with the other. After some thought the best I'd got was to drill up the centre and superglue some wire in this hole, hold the wire in tailstock and not risk pinging the part off into the abyss. I managed to bend the wire but still have the part. Here it is transferred to another pin chuck (yes, I am running out of pin chucks to hold all the parts for this project!) for a photo after blackening.

 

post-8031-0-28755100-1345662302_thumb.jpg

 

So now I am onto the base. Sticking with metal, my first idea is to make this from 6mm brass bar. Of course I'll be back soon to let you know how it goes...

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The base isn't going too well. It is the most complicated shape I have to do though. The rest are small but basically various sizes of 'round'.

 

My first attempt has gone badly because I couldn't clamp it well enough longitudinally in the machine vice on the mill to out the faces on. It would be easy enough if I had a dividing head, but I don't. Fortunately nothing was destroyed (yet) because the cutter seemed to be okay after having a good grab at the workpiece while I got myself a change of underwear. I later realised I'd drilled the centre hole wrong anyway!

 

After I had calmed down I cut a new piece of 6mm bar, chucked and faced both ends and drilled one 0.5mm to hold the LED portion and then broke my last 0.8mm drill doing the other end. Fortunately the work piece is okay it will just have to wait until I go find another one. I might have to buy a set in a local shop, despite my objections, because I'm not planning attending any shows in the next few weekends due to a wedding anniversary and a party. Never mind, I thought, I can make a holder to grip the workpiece in the machine vice. I intended this to be simple: an off cut of 1/2" brass bar drilled through 6mm and then slit to the hole so that the work piece when inserted and clamped would be held nice and tightly. My tools had other ideas. I had another brown trouser moment as the drill caught badly when breaking through the brass and then I obliterated my only 3mm tungsten carbide 'multi-purpose' milling bit whilst slot milling. I shalln't be trying the particular operation I was going for on my poor little machine again. I have now got a workpiece holder but am thinking that it might be a good idea to not do any more on this this afternoon?

Edited by richbrummitt

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Time for a break (!) methinks. Go to another project. Have a cup of tea. Anything but break more tools.

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Went out to the model shop. Found out that, usefully, he stocks individual small sizes (nice) but he was also out of 0.8mm, so had to go for a set after all. I also bought some more grey paint that, unusefully, is not the colour I was after. I think I have all the greys in the GW range now and none of them are the colour I used on coach roofs in the past so I'm really not sure what paint it might have been that is not white and not grey either, just happily off white and nondescript. I also bought a picture from the gallery, which will, I hope, be met with enthusiasm when unveiled as an anniversary 'present' this weekend.

 

After all that I had a few very productive hours making something that I'm pretty happy with and no more tool breakages. The pictures are still in the camera but will be up here next time I'm on at the computer. I just wanted you all to know that the doom and gloom was short lived. It'll be time to try all the parts together soon.

Edited by richbrummitt
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Pictures, as promised yesterday:

 

Here is the part mounted into the fixture for milling the top of the base whilst still in the milling machine. The part is milled another 0.8mm deep at 2mm width below the base of the point indicator to represent the continuation of the point timber across the 6mm hole the part will occupy in the baseboard when it is mounted.

 

post-8031-0-93746500-1345920897_thumb.jpg

 

Finally a picture with a coin for size reference, a nice shiny 2012 penny, not quite as shiny as the brass part however. The odd shape near the bottom is where I have already begun roughing out a slot that will house the mechanism.

 

post-8031-0-62359600-1345920906_thumb.jpg

 

The operating lever has been added from 0.008" guitar string through a cross drilled 0.3mm hole. It will eventually be integrated into the point rodding. Initially I plan to create a small display/demonstration board for this piece before transplanting onto Littlemore at a later date. The odd colouring is due to blackening the steel wire and getting it on the brass too.

 

post-8031-0-09942700-1345920909_thumb.jpg

 

I've made a trial fit with lengths of representative tube and rod to see that the mechanism fits together and it looks good thus far. The LED portion appears to fit and rotate within the drum also. It has been a productive day - more pictures soon.

Edited by richbrummitt
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Hi Rich -

 

On your way home from work try 'AHC Tools' - they're on the commercial estate just behind 'Homebase' off the 'Shepherd & Flock' roundabout. Excellent range of small tools & they carry individual drill bits down to (at least) 0.03mm. They're open 'til about 5.30 during the week.

 

Regs

 

Ian

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Thanks Ian,

 

I've no idea where that is but I'll look it up next time I need one. I'm sure it will be too long.

 

Richard.

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Right now, the question is will your model need a red or white target and light in the normal position? Simplest way to find out is to post a diagram or picture of where it will go on your layout and I will tell you which it should be. But there is one simple answer - if it is at a trap point at the exit from a siding it will definitely be red.

 

Red, I think. The position confused me for some time because the 'disc' is on the right hand side of the siding, between the running line and the siding, rather than on the left hand side. There is nothing obvious for it to control/indicate on the running line though. I found an earlier picture that I think makes things clearer. The pre 1911 picture shows what might (my conjecture) be the same 'disc' on the left hand side of the siding, outside of both it and the running line. What I presume happened was that when the spur and loading dock was added the platform face of the dock prevented the 'disc' from remaining in it's present location and it was moved to the 'wrong' side of the line. Does this make sense to anyone else? Could that be what most likely would have happened? Looking at my layout I couldn't see the problem until I looked harder at the evidence and spotted that the loading dock I have under construction is not nearly long enough, hence there would be space to site the 'disc' on the 'correct' side (left/outside) of the siding until I correct the mistake in my infrastructure that I just became aware of tonight.

 

Something else that seems awry is an apparent lack of trap point in this early photograph. There is a wagon stood adjacent to the 'disc', maybe even slightly beyond it towards the camera, that could be obscuring the view, or it could just be that it is not easy to pick out on the small photograph, which is on the bottom half of an A5 page. Would there have always been a trap point? If not would the 'disc' have been attached to the switch and placed all the way back along the siding at a suitable distance from the connection? I think given the current layout, where the loading dock forms a trap, the 'disc' should be tied to this switch. Any other ideas welcome, especially better informed ones.

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Red, I think. The position confused me for some time because the 'disc' is on the right hand side of the siding, between the running line and the siding, rather than on the left hand side. There is nothing obvious for it to control/indicate on the running line though. I found an earlier picture that I think makes things clearer. The pre 1911 picture shows what might (my conjecture) be the same 'disc' on the left hand side of the siding, outside of both it and the running line. What I presume happened was that when the spur and loading dock was added the platform face of the dock prevented the 'disc' from remaining in it's present location and it was moved to the 'wrong' side of the line. Does this make sense to anyone else? Could that be what most likely would have happened? Looking at my layout I couldn't see the problem until I looked harder at the evidence and spotted that the loading dock I have under construction is not nearly long enough, hence there would be space to site the 'disc' on the 'correct' side (left/outside) of the siding until I correct the mistake in my infrastructure that I just became aware of tonight.

 

Something else that seems awry is an apparent lack of trap point in this early photograph. There is a wagon stood adjacent to the 'disc', maybe even slightly beyond it towards the camera, that could be obscuring the view, or it could just be that it is not easy to pick out on the small photograph, which is on the bottom half of an A5 page. Would there have always been a trap point? If not would the 'disc' have been attached to the switch and placed all the way back along the siding at a suitable distance from the connection? I think given the current layout, where the loading dock forms a trap, the 'disc' should be tied to this switch. Any other ideas welcome, especially better informed ones.

There should have been something there to act as a trap in the earlier arrangement although I'm not entirely sure without doing a bit of digging when trapping became a requirement - relatively early I think. In earlier days it could just as likely have been a wheelstop as a trap point.

 

Looking at the pic in your blog the signal is almost certainly on the 'wrong' side because of the loading bank and your conjecture that it was moved when the loading dock was built sounds absolutely spot on to me (regrettably my Reading works order book doesn't cover that period so I can't confirm but I would put good money on you being correct).

 

My only worry is that in the pic in the blog the discs looks to be a little way in rear of the switch although it could still be readily worked off it - so carry on as planned and blame me if I'm wrong ;)

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I seem to have mislaid some pictures of some of the mechanism components :scratchhead:

 

With a little paint splashed on (to save me trying to paint it all once it's assembled) and trial fitted together we have a good result. :sungum:

 

post-8031-0-40391300-1346275421_thumb.jpg

 

Through the right hand hole you will be able to see the yellow of the LED face?

 

Next up it needs some targets/faces. I looked for a pair of those 80s 3D glasses but didn't get very far. Read and green acetate was out of stock in the the hobby store and I'm not sure that I'd have given £3+ a sheet for it anyway. I dug into a sheet of signal lenses and punched out a disc of green colour from the sheet with a craft punch tool for eyelet work (kindly borrowed from the wife's tool stash). The red face is being made from 0.005" n/s etch scrap, with a through hole and no lens, and the light will be white.

 

post-8031-0-60702700-1346275426_thumb.jpg

 

I tried to attach it with Microscale Krystal Kleer but the bond was rubbish: it came away on my finger the following day. By some miracle I tracked down the stray part in the (dark blue) carpet and am having another go after having a search on the forum about possible alternatives without resorting to superglue and it's possible problems. This time I'm trying with Pledge Wax (formerly Johnsons Klear). If it sticks this like it does ballast I should have no problems.

 

post-8031-0-97201400-1346275437_thumb.jpg

 

Although the bottle suggests 20 minutes when used for it's intended purpose I'm going to leave it like this overnight and hope that the blu-tac comes away nicely, that I haven't inadvertently fixed any parts that are meant to move, and that the bond is good. The tweezers are adjusted to apply very light pressure like this. Fingers crossed.

 

post-8031-0-56205400-1346275444_thumb.jpg

 

Not that I recommend this kind of messy environment for working in and around but it seems convenient to me. :senile:

Edited by richbrummitt
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Richard,

 

If the Johnsons Klear doesn't work, would clear varnish secure it?

 

Ian

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If the Johnsons Klear doesn't work, would clear varnish secure it?

 

When I checked this morning the Klear seems to have done the trick. The green/blue lens does little, if anything, to change the colour of the LED however. :(

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I've left the thing with the other face so it can (hopefully) stick in the right place. Lining up the hole in the square face and the one in the drum was fun :no:

 

I'm currently pondering two things:

 

1, whether to remake the centre with amber LEDs. The current ones look a lot too white even for an incandescent source that isn't tungsten or similar, never mind an oil lamp?

 

2, adding the rib detail to the base casting, although I'm not sure quite what I would make them from?

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The green/blue lens does little, if anything, to change the colour of the LED however. :(

 

LEDs are very 'narrow-band', so filters usually can't change their colour. (Are you using the 'gold' or the 'white'?)

 

Maybe reducing the voltage could help?

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LEDs are very 'narrow-band', so filters usually can't change their colour. (Are you using the 'gold' or the 'white'?)

 

Maybe reducing the voltage could help?

 

The ones I have are white 6500K, which is one of the issues. I'm sure that Julia got warm white and that I went to the same website, but the product range will change according to the manufacturers output and perhaps they are not so easily found any more as warm white? You are right to say this about coloured LEDs and white with filters can produce some unexpected results. I will probably have some issues with the green/blue if I go to amber. The white should have enough green in it to filter because of the way this kind of white LED is produced. I think the filter is not strong enough and I will try to darken it further with ink/paint first.

 

I don't have a lens in the red side and the back is clear. This is where the 6500K colour temperature is noticeable.

 

If you reduce the voltage by too much they don't light at all. That is one reason why I changed from series to parallel wiring.

 

I'm going to have a play with some ink/paint and see what is possible. I don't really fancy unsoldering and dismantling the thing.

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I asked the Department of Transport a while back if they could tell me what the spectrum range was for the green on old-fashioned (tungsten-driven) traffic lights, but they didn't have a clue...

Edited by Miss Prism

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Argh. I was making good progress, or so I thought, and then I realise that I fixed the square target over the wrong hole! At the moment the thing presents the red target to one side and then rotates the wrong way so that the green target is presented in the other direction :banghead:

 

To solve this either we find out how strong the Klear bond is, or I put the soldering iron on it for long enough to move the operating quadrant around on the 0.8mm tube? That is a decision that can wait until I've had some sleep and calmed down.

 

The end result was so nearly in sight...

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Colour wise you either need a very 'yellow' light or a possible alternative - if you can find it - is much darker/less transparent colours for the 'lenses' in the targets.

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