Loft conversion v "boarding for storage"

[RJS1977]

I'm currently in the process of house-hunting and of course the primary consideration is a house with a loft that I can "board for storage" and just happen to store a model railway in in working condition!

 

However I've recently viewed a house where the loft has been floored, walled in, ceiling and Velux window fitted and carpeted and wallpapered! However there is only a loft ladder instead of a staircase and none of the fire regs for three-storey houses have been complied with. Therefore the current occupants are only using it for storage.

 

The question is - would building regs be liable to look on this as a "habitable room" and thus insist on a staircase, fire doors etc? (The hatch is too small to be able to take beds or armchairs through!).

 

If it would make any difference, I'd probably take the carpet out anyway!

 

Any advice would be much appreciated!

 

Many thanks

[frobisher]

As I understand it, it'll only be a habitable room if you put in the staircase, fire doors and wotnot and you have no obligation to do so. Until you do so, it remains a well turned out storage space.

[Guest stuartp]

You need to check with the council. Our current one only considers it a habitable room if its actually being used as such, the neighbouring authority where I used to live considered it a habitable room if it could be used as such, regardless of what you were actually doing in there.

[The Stationmaster]

If it hasn't got a staircase and fire doors it remains an attic/loft for storage purposes and legally it cannot be used for habitable purposes. And according to the local Building Inspector here it cannot be used as a 'model railway room' if it is not up to habitable standard with the relevant standard of access but most importantly fire precautions. My attic has gable windows at the front, Velux windows at the back, is fully plastered and has fixed lighting and a power point but it is accessed via a loft ladder and is therefore not habitable space. But it is only used for storage due to lack of headroom and - as it was a new build - was inspected by the Building Inspector who confirmed my written advice to the Planners that I had downgraded it from the originally intended habitable space by omitting the stairs and fire doors. The Rating Assessor also excluded it from habitable space.

 

The latter is also a point worth bearing in mind - if you convert roof space to habitable space it counts as such as part of the overall total for the building. This should make no difference to your current banding but it would take effect if the property is sold or reassessed.

[Black Sheep]

if you have no intentions to use it as habitable space, but for storage and running trains then I see no reason to involve building control / local council.

 

see it as a pleasent loft area.

 

as far as I am aware a habitable room is one in which someone regulally sleeps, this room should obviously never be used for someone to sleep over in, even for just one night.

[The Stationmaster]

 

as far as I am aware a habitable room is one in which someone regulally sleeps, this room should obviously never be used for someone to sleep over in, even for just one night.

Alas not so http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/general/glossaryandlinks/glossary/h although the definition of 'living' might well vary among Planning Officers etc but the view taken by the Planners and Building Inspectors here was that if someone is going to be in the room for a period of time such as hobby usage then it is habitable space. The Rating Assessor (who didn't work for the local District Council) also had the view that if people were going to be in it for a period of time then it would be classed as habitable space.

[Guest stuartp]

That's why you need to check with them Black Sheep - what you or I think doesn't matter, it's what your local planning and building control people say.

 

Personally I'd look for one with a quality garage. Apart from anything else it's quite difficult to fall out of a garage.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Apart from what the Council Building Regs guys think now, ask yourself what they will be thinking when you want to sell the house. It could foul-up or delay the sale with costly consequences.

 

Also, are you sure that the work has been done properly? Particularly with respect to joists,you will need to take up carpet and floor to check.

[Black Sheep]

Alas not so http://www.planningp...inks/glossary/h although the definition of 'living' might well vary among Planning Officers etc but the view taken by the Planners and Building Inspectors here was that if someone is going to be in the room for a period of time such as hobby usage then it is habitable space. The Rating Assessor (who didn't work for the local District Council) also had the view that if people were going to be in it for a period of time then it would be classed as habitable space.

 

My assumption was based upon speaking to building control regarding a property I have been renovating where they were only concerned over the bedrooms in terms of exiting the building quickly, thanks for the link and clarifying the actual criteria that must be met.

[edcayton]

There is also the issue of insulation. You will not have enough depth if you fix boarding to the existing joists. If you want to board over the insulation you will need extra joists(if that is the correct term) at 90(I thought there was a degree symbol on this thing), and place boards on that.

 

I can only reiterate what others have said, that not doing the job properly will come back and bite you when you try to sell or, more importantly, make an insurance claim.

 

It is also true to say that a poorly converted attic is by no means a "habitable space" as it will be too dark, too hot in summer and too cold in winter, and it will be very expensive to do properly.

 

Have a nice shed?

 

Ed

[PhilH]

It is also true to say that a poorly converted attic is by no means a "habitable space" as it will be too dark, too hot in summer and too cold in winter, and it will be very expensive to do properly.

 

Have a nice shed?

 

Surely the same remarks in your post also apply to a shed?

[edcayton]

Surely the same remarks in your post also apply to a shed?

 

Sorry, the smiley thing didn't work. However I think the shed can probably be made better more easily than the attic, it is certainly easier to get stuff into and out of and involves less stairs. Biggest problem would be security, or lack thereof.

 

Ed

[chris p bacon]

Think of it this way.

 

Your wife/children start a small fire in the kitchen, not too big but loads of disorientating smoke, how do you get out ?

 

Won't happen ?

 

About 2 years ago next door to where I was working an elderly lady(91) living with Daughter & son In Law put a plastic tray down on the cooker/stove, within seconds the tray was alight and the room was full of acrid black smoke, she was completely disorientated as the house filled with smoke. I was alerted to the smoke alarm going off, I got her out of the house and called the fire brigade, she recovered but a dog in an upstairs room died of smoke inhallation(?)

It was no more than 8 minutes and one plastic tray, the whole house was smoke damaged and it made your eyes water it was so acrid.

 

Some are a bit too Blase about lofts and their uses, you must have a means of escape from it other than down a loft ladder.

[birdseyecircus]

Shed v Loft Hmm.. Loft wins everytime for me.

Security for a shed is difficult.

If security is an issue you will have to carry all your stock to and from the shed for every operating session. (unlike the loft were you can go for a quick shunt! )

With a shed you are away from the house ( wot happens when the postie is knocking with your latest purchase?).

Fancy trudging down to the shed in the pouring rain?

 

Paul

[Black Sheep]

there is no way I could shin my way down a ladder, down stairs and open the door in time to greet the postie and I'm only 28 and enjoy climbing!

[Wummyock]

The timbers in a loft that are attached to the ceilings of the bedrooms below arent man enough to take the weight of an operator possibly mates as well and a layout. The timbers are generally only 4x2's when they should be 6x2's minimum depending on what the spans below are.I have got the info somewhere on a chart if anyone wants to know what they need to put in.Then you have the problem of getting said timbers into the loft through the house.

[APOLLO]

I wouldn't bother too much after reading this

 

http://www.thesun.co...f-Southall.html

 

After all, your only STORING a "toy train set" in the loft, aren't you ???!!!.

 

Though as others advise, check the existing work carefully, get a surveyor in if needed.

 

Brit15

[Tel2010]

There was a brilliant layout in a recent mag,i think British Railway Modeling,which was built under a bungalow ,he accessed it via a trap door in the kitchen,my first thoughts where how would he get out in a emergency.

It must have took a great effort to get everything down there in first place.Not a proper cellar either and you had to crouch all the time,i certainly couldn't work bent double like that.A very nice layout though .There was a video on mags web site but dont know if its still available.

 

Tel

[RJS1977]

I wouldn't bother too much after reading this

 

http://www.thesun.co...f-Southall.html

 

 

I did view one a while back that looked as if it had been used for a similar purpose! Big outbuilding in the back garden and a large loft room (this time with a staircase, but so tight I nearly got stuck!) and mattresses all over the place! Either room had plenty of space for a layout, but in a very rough neighbourhood :-(

 

As regards "boarding for storage", I've been involved with several layouts in similar locations over a number of years, none of which have led to structural issues in the houses concerned.

[Black Sheep]

I think the idea of the loft as a layout room comes from the days when 50's houses were new-builds and things wedge built with a bigger margin for error and thus were stronger.

 

I know my parent's house built in the 70's hasn't been boarded, just planks of chipboard and mdf spread around to stack stuff on shows no issue from the weight in the 28 years I've been alive, modern houses I'd be a bit more nervous about.

[RJS1977]

Fortunately the property in question is a Victorian terrace (as are most of the "affordable" ones round here), which is why the garage is out - there isn't one!

[Black Sheep]

I'm in the same situation, thankfully a small extension has been added to ours* at some stage which is to be my study

 

*I say ours, we've yet to exchange contracts on it.

[Gordon A]

My attic railway room is not classed as a habitable room because the access is by folding loft ladder.

This I have been told meens that the room cannot be used or classified as a bedroom.

The loft has been converted to habitable room specification with the exception of the access.

I use it to store my model railway bits and pieces and use as my model building area.

I have two velux windows fitted one to the front and one to the rear.

Apologises if this has been covered earlier.

 

Gordon A

Bristol

[crompton 33]

with my loft convertion i had to have a fire door/fire alarm/ velux window's that you could get out of if you had a fire/ rsj's fitted under the floor coated with fire proof paint. and that is only half of the work that had to be done.

[Joseph_Pestell]

There is also the issue of insulation. You will not have enough depth if you fix boarding to the existing joists. If you want to board over the insulation you will need extra joists(if that is the correct term) at 90(I thought there was a degree symbol on this thing), and place boards on that.

 

I can only reiterate what others have said, that not doing the job properly will come back and bite you when you try to sell or, more importantly, make an insurance claim.

 

It is also true to say that a poorly converted attic is by no means a "habitable space" as it will be too dark, too hot in summer and too cold in winter, and it will be very expensive to do properly.

 

Have a nice shed?

 

Ed

 

Extra joists (at least 150mm but quite possibly more depending on span), yes. At 90 degrees, NO. All that would do is impose extra load on the original joists.

 

When working out spans, be very careful to only consider load bearing walls. In many houses, only the external walls at 1st floor level are load-bearing.

 

I am trying to remember our carpenter's rule-of-thumb for calculating joists. But, as an example, our 5m wide sitting room needed (IIRC) 200mm joists. Consult a structural engineer if in ny doubt.

 

In most cases, it will be very difficult to get suitable joists up into the loft without taking down a ceiling.

 

And, as others have said, don't play fast-and-loose with fire regs. They are there for a reason. Don't put your life at risk and those of others. If using a loft, you really do need a window from which you can escape.