Theory of General Minories

[CaptainBiggles]

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but the whole debate about Minories ends here. For good.

 

I've resolved it, once and for all... ;-)

 

Minories? Completed it mate!

 

Joel

[sammyboy]

On 29/11/2014 at 23:19, bigdaveadams1 said:

Has anyone ever managed to build an N gauge minories? I'm thinking 8ft including fiddle yard would be sufficient in N.

 

I'd love to build a N Gauge Minories one day - it is on the list for planned layouts I would like to build in the future!

 

Sam

[Pacific231G]

4 hours ago, sammyboy said:

 

I'd love to build a N Gauge Minories one day - it is on the list for planned layouts I would like to build in the future!

 

Sam

There was one at Ally Pally in 2017. It was Hallam Town in I think 2mm finescale.

Because of how much we see in a single glance I reckon that  an N gauge Minories does need longer trains (in terms of number of coaches) and possibly to be a bit more spread out than in OO/H0 and even more so than in O. Scenic breaks and viewl limiters affect that too- the central overbridge in Freezer's original design did more than hide the hinges. Hallam town accomodated about one more coach than most OO Minories and the throat pointwork wasn't hard up to the platform ends.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Waraqah]

On 02/12/2019 at 16:59, CaptainBiggles said:

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but the whole debate about Minories ends here. For good.

 

I've resolved it, once and for all... ;-)

 

Minories? Completed it mate!

 

Joel

Hi Cap'n B. Just seen this

 

Is it DC or DCC? 

[PatB]

Definitely digital. 

 

As in, powered by one's digits. 

[CaptainBiggles]

DeCiduous

[Waraqah]

18 hours ago, CaptainBiggles said:

DeCiduous

Leaf it out! You wooden let it lie!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  I'll get my coat...

[Pacific231G]

On 24/02/2020 at 10:41, CaptainBiggles said:

DeCiduous

Oh come on Joel. You're really not trying hard enough. That's not a Minories by any stretch of the imagination. But there is enough Brio track in that spaghetti bowl of yours to build a proper Brio Minories following Cyril Freezer's track layout. All you need is a balloon loop on the end so that departing trains quickly become arrivals (suburban trains all the look the same anyway) and you can run an intensive commuter service for your Brio people. Now do it again and next time we expect to see it runninng to a proper timetable

Edited February 25, 2020 by Pacific231G

[SteveyDee68]

On 20/09/2019 at 10:45, Pacific231G said:

That's a brilliant idea Stevie. Platforms one and two are for conventional boat and local trains while anything, wagons or Wagons Lits, for the train ferry is pulled into "platform three" (which I'd see as a quayside line) from where a shunter moves suitable cuts back to the headshunt whose length is determined by the length of the ferry's  train deck. (or how much of it you choose to model.)

 

 

On 14/09/2019 at 11:58, SteveyDee68 said:

This may have been a while ago (2014) but the design reminds me of Rev Alan Shone's Wardleworth Lines Committee terminus St John's, which featured a train ferry. If the "goods shed" in Pacific231G's drawing became a train ferry as per the Rev's own idea, that would allow both passenger and freight to use Platform 3, as cross-Channel traffic.

 

Of course, if the "goods shed" became a ferry, it would need to be considerably longer to look realistic (say three or four carriages per road) which would make the station longer too, and the scenic treatment would need to change. Off topic from the original discussion of an intensive city terminus, but perhaps makes the "goods" aspect more palettable/appealing?

 

Not the best editing, but here's the plan "ferry-fied!"

 

 

Once again revising a thread which may be considered to have been done to death, but...

 

I proposed a train ferry, doctoring David's (Pacific231G) drawing of CJ Freezer's Minories MkII (with a goods shed in front of the main train shed, as shown above) and he very kindly saw that my idea might hold water (oops, sorry) as per the quote from his response at the very top of this entry (because I can't work out how to rearrange multiple quotes!).

 

Having read through all this thread and any other I can find on Minories, a commonly recurring issue is that of the reverse curve through the pointwork at the station throat.  It has been pointed out that these can be eradicated if the approach is on a curve, as per Paris Bastille.  However, every curved version I have seen drawn is with the curve running to the left leaving the station (as per Paris Bastille) - if the throat is to the right of the plan, the curve runs upwards.

 

I have tried to draw out the above plan but with the station on an angle so that the pointwork is on a curve running to the right leaving the station, but cannot get it to work!  My plan is for the ferry to hold four coaches on either track, so the station platforms would need to be straight at that point alongside the ship.  I plan for platforms 1and 2 to be third rail electrified (for EMUs, and of course a Brighton Belle!) whereas platform 3 serves the ferry and being inset track will require steam, diesel (class 33) or electro/diesel (class 73) motive power.

 

So, platform 3 needs to hold 7 coaches, baggage coach plus loco; platforms 1 and 2 require 6 coaches plus loco (therefore easily holding 5 car Brighton Belle or 4-car, 2 car or even 4+2 car EMUs; the headshunt ideally holds four coaches plus shunter (USA tank, Class 07 diesel, Class 08 etc).

 

If anyone feels like a challenge (during what remains of lockdown) to draw this, I would be more than grateful, as this would form the backbone of my "ultimate" layout!  I like the idea of a grand looking station with an overall roof to protect passengers from inclement weather, but Dover Marine is I feel too busy for a single modeller; I feel the Minories design looks complex but in this guise allows a different traffic pattern, which would be much more manageable.

 

HOURS OF FUN!

 

 

[DCB]

I think if building the Minories Mk2 with Goods shed I would add a three way point which I don't think Peco did when CJF designed Minories.  Together with a run round crossover  This would make shunting a lot easier and allow the goods to arrive off peak and the loco run round and shunt without needing a pilot. Also the goods could depart without having to set back into the lower platform.   Also off peak passengers could run round without needing a pilot while a pilot would still need to be on hand during morning and evening peaks. Ditto for train ferry.  Where is the 4 coach ferry going?   Lundy Island,  Isle of Skye?    Gives me an idea for my Isle of Sky layout concept., Mallaig to Armadale train ferry .  Four big heavy Midland 12 wheel sleepers behind a diminutive 4-4-2T slogging up through the mountains ready for the glorious 12h August..

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by DavidCBroad

[Harlequin]

3 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

I have tried to draw out the above plan but with the station on an angle so that the pointwork is on a curve running to the right leaving the station, but cannot get it to work!  My plan is for the ferry to hold four coaches on either track, so the station platforms would need to be straight at that point alongside the ship.  I plan for platforms 1and 2 to be third rail electrified (for EMUs, and of course a Brighton Belle!) whereas platform 3 serves the ferry and being inset track will require steam, diesel (class 33) or electro/diesel (class 73) motive power.

 

 

 

Hi, I can't quite picture what you're trying to do. Do you want the station running basically NW to SE or SW to NE? And then the inbound and outbound tracks are horizontal (I.e. EW), as in all the above plans, right?

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Anybody interested in Minories but needing the approach on a curve should look at Clive M's first version of Sheffield Exchange which made clever use of a single slip as part of the station throat. But keep in mind that some designs are simply not suitable to flip through 180 degrees.

 

I had missed the part of this thread that suggested a train ferry in place of the goods shed; a very interesting idea but if the ship is at the front one won't be able to see the trains in the station, or not if we are talking something traveling across the English Channel or North Sea. Across the Solent to the Isle of Wight could be an option. Mainly freight with just the occasional passenger vehicle on its way to repair/maintenance.

[SteveyDee68]

On 30/05/2020 at 08:15, Harlequin said:

 

Hi, I can't quite picture what you're trying to do. Do you want the station running basically NW to SE or SW to NE? And then the inbound and outbound tracks are horizontal (I.e. EW), as in all the above plans, right?

 

 

Hi PhilM - I think you have! The second description is exactly what I have been trying to draw with absolutely no success, i.e. SW to NE with tracks exiting horizontal EW!  

 

Joseph (Joseph_Pestell) makes a very valid argument that you can't see trains behind the train ferry, but as the ferry would (in my head) not actually be as long as the station, you should have a view of the end of the platforms.  Possibly my doctored plan gives a false sense of where the ship is berthed compared to the station and how big I envisage it; David (DavidCBroad) asks where four coaches are off to, whereas the ferry accommodates four coaches on each track (so a total of eight coaches or, when I finally find a way of producing them to 4mm scale (you listening, Hornby?!) the wagon-lits sleeper coaches and a couple of Fourgon vans).  I don't think I was clear in my description!

 

The station would therefore handle mainly passengers, newspapers and parcels traffic; freight would mainly be cross channel ferry wagons, plus perhaps fuel for the ferry? To that end I did wonder about a second siding parallel to platform 3 on the quayside - I think I've seen photos of Weymouth station with tank wagons?

 

The station is step 1 of my "masterplan"   as I would then fan the headshunt into loops alongside the main lines to hold freight trains, in order to be reversed (before reaching the station) back to the docks.  (That would also allow freight trains using the ferry to arrive and depart clear of platform 3).

 

It would all be simpler as a single line, but I envisage fairly busy local services using mainly EMUs running mainly to platform 1, parcels and less frequent trains into platform 2 (where they remain for some time and mainly block the platform) and boat and ferry trains using platform 3.  So not a typical traffic pattern for a Minories based plan!

 

I could build it as per the original plan, but I have room to build outwards and would like to avoid the reverse curves!  Nothing like forward planning - if I have a definite plan to work to that I know works, it would avoid the months of physical redesigning I have been through for Woodhey Quay!

 

Thank you to everybody who has responded.

 

Steve S

Edited November 30, 2020 by SteveyDee68
Corrected attributations (again!)

[Harlequin]

22 minutes ago, SteveyDee68 said:

 

Hi PhilM - I think you have! The second description is exactly what I have been trying to draw with absolutely no success, i.e. SW to NE with tracks exiting horizontal EW!  

 

Steve S

 

Well, that's the natural lie for a Minories station and the crossovers being combined into the turn across the face of the platforms is what Minories is all about. So it should be very easy to arrange the platform lines to be oriented the way you want, it's just a question of how far you turn:

[SteveyDee68]

7 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

Well, that's the natural lie for a Minories station and the crossovers being combined into the turn across the face of the platforms is what Minories is all about. So it should be very easy to arrange the platform lines to be oriented the way you want, it's just a question of how far you turn:

 

Wow! I have drawn this so many times and yet never managed to find this solution!  The upper trackwork is how I saw it in my minds eye!

 

1) Are the orange points long or medium points?

2) I'm not understanding the single slip - is that accessing platform roads 1 and 2, or the pilot loco siding?

 

So I guess the "outwards angle" of my platform roads  is more or less that of the angle of the points, rather than on a curve as such?

 

Steve S

[tender]

21 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

Well, that's the natural lie for a Minories station and the crossovers being combined into the turn across the face of the platforms is what Minories is all about. So it should be very easy to arrange the platform lines to be oriented the way you want, it's just a question of how far you turn:

 

I may be misinterpreting something here, but how does a arriving train access the middle platform?

[Harlequin]

13 minutes ago, SteveyDee68 said:

 

Wow! I have drawn this so many times and yet never managed to find this solution!  The upper trackwork is how I saw it in my minds eye!

 

1) Are the orange points long or medium points?

2) I'm not understanding the single slip - is that accessing platform roads 1 and 2, or the pilot loco siding?

 

So I guess the "outwards angle" of my platform roads  is more or less that of the angle of the points, rather than on a curve as such?

 

Steve S

Yes, the orange points are Streamline Mediums.

Sorry the slip is confusing. It's part of the general solution for arbitrary numbers of platforms but CJF's solution is minimal so you don't really need a slip there.

The platform angle depends on what points you use to connect the running lines crossing the platform faces to the platforms and you can, of course, introduce curves to make the platforms more interesting.

 

1 minute ago, tender said:

 

I may be misinterpreting something here, but how does a arriving train access the middle platform?

Those drawings are just part of the the throat not the whole thing.

 

Let me draw some more to make it clearer. Hold on...

 

[Harlequin]

Here you go: Full Minories throats:

The top one gives 12° platform lines and the bottom one uses Large Ys to give 18° platform lines.

But note that that's just the initial direction and you can turn in any direction you want after that - which is what CJF did, of course.

 

If you've got room you could use Large radius turnouts and Large Ys in the crossovers to make the formation even smoother and give a different platform angle:

The natural angle for the platforms from this throat would be 6° but I continued to change direction to give an angle of -6°. (This is from Pacific Terminus.)

 

P.S. The problem with using a single slip in the throat is it's a much sharper turn than you can achieve with separate turnouts.

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by Harlequin

[Zomboid]

3 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Here you go: Full Minories throats:

The top one gives 12° platform lines and the bottom one uses Large Ys to give 18° platform lines.

But note that that's just the initial direction and you can turn in any direction you want after that - which is what CJF did, of course.

Or have the two points on the left as RH and you eliminate all reverse curves and have the platforms at 24*.

[tender]

40 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

Sorry the slip is confusing.

 

That's the bit that got me.

 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, SteveyDee68 said:

 

 

 

Joseph makes a very valid argument that you can't see trains behind the train ferry, but as the ferry would (in my head) not actually be as long as the station, you should have a view of the end of the platforms.  Possibly my doctored plan gives a false sense of where the ship is berthed compared to the station and how big I envisage it; Joseph asks where four coaches are off to, whereas the ferry accommodates four coaches on each track (so a total of eight coaches or, when I finally find a way of producing them to 4mm scale (you listening, Hornby?!) the wagon-lits sleeper coaches and a couple of Fourgon vans).  I don't think I was clear in my description!

 

 

No, it was not me that asked where the four coaches were off to. But, in my student days, from Dover Marine, I often took an early morning 4-car CEP/2 x 2HAP up to Faversham and on to Bromley South for the bus home. Quicker/easier than getting the Boat Train and having to come back again from Victoria. Marine would not make a great model with the platforms completely under the trainshed, but it could make a great fiddleyard.

 

There were four tracks on the ferry interlaced at the stern. I'm not sure of the length but there was certainly enough space for 4 coaches on each of the centre tracks. But you don't necessarily need that many. For much of the year there would be fewer than that, the rest of the deck being taken up by freight (including road vehicles).

 

Have you considered a Rule One solution with an overnight sleeper train to Holland/Germany via a train ferry from Harwich?

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

 

Well, that's the natural lie for a Minories station and the crossovers being combined into the turn across the face of the platforms is what Minories is all about. So it should be very easy to arrange the platform lines to be oriented the way you want, it's just a question of how far you turn:

That's entirely true Phil.

If you want to avoid any reverse curves in the pointwork the minumum angle between the platfroms and the approach lines is twice he divergence angle of the turnout (in the case of Peco about 25 degrees) The problem I've found with laying out throats with Streamline is that their slips have an effecive radius about the same as their small radius points. With full lengrh coaching stock that does give a rather excessive throwover between coaches. However, it's simplicity itself to create an equivalent angled throat with simple turnouts with a nominal radius of about three feet. 

These are both drawn with Peco medium radius points and for the second I've set the approach curve at 30 inch minimum to see how much space it would require (a somewhat arbitrary figure but a nominal three foot radius for points and a thirty inch curve were the BRMSB recommended minima for OO and H0)  For a clear platform length of five feet the whole thing would fit comfortablt into a length of ten foot and that platform length should accomodate a five coach train of Mk 1s with any but the largest steam and almost any diesel or electric locos. There is a reverse curve to platform 3 but the reverse can be separated  by at least eight inches or with a fairly large radius.  The whole thing with its fiddle yard would fit comfortably into  the corner of  a10 ft by 9ft room. 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Sticking with that 30" minimum radius, the point at the "eastern" end could be a LH curved point rather than an LH medium radius. That should save about 4" of length.

 

In this format, I think that I would want to be extending the top line to make a departure-only bay/parcels siding with the loco spur coming off further along the curve. Indeed, even space for a loco stabling point in the corner.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Joseph_Pestell

[Compound2632]

I think I've posted this before but make no apology for doing so again, since Minories throats on the curve are under discussion:

 

 

L.E. Carroll, New Victoria Line, in Model Railway News Vol. 45 No. 529 (1969) pp. 12-17. The article describes how power is fully interlocked to points and signals.

[Zomboid]

Carriage sidings in the place of the loco spur would be an interesting variation. It ought to be possible to make the top two platform roads the island platform too rather than the bottom two, which would be another variation. I'd combine them