Theory of General Minories

[Pacific231G]

On 10/03/2024 at 01:45, RobinofLoxley said:

@Pacific231G Thanks for asnwering my query and not debating the (Obviously arguable) criteria.

My pleasure Robin

Hammersmith (H&C) was essentally a GWR station and even now there are still GWR benches on the non Island platform. It's therefore a reasonable assumption that, had the GW built their Shepherd's Bush terminus of the Ealing and Shepherds Bush rather than agreeing with the Central London Railway for them to operate it as an extension from Wood Lane/White City, that might well have been a rather similar three-platform affair but one operated by conventional trains, steam then diesel, into modern times.   

 

This is more of an "almost was" than a "might have been" and, if the CLR's original plan to extend itself by looping south to Hammersmith then back into the City via Kensington, Hyde Park and Fleet Street had come to fruition, might well have been built. The GWR wanted the line to provide a more direct link to the City and, in the end, it made more sense to make that connection at Ealing Broadway rather than establishing a new suburban terminus at Shepherd's Bush.  

At yeserday's Wealden Show, someone had a layout based on how that terminus might be now rationalised and cut back and there was a 3mm scale Minories based ( but single track) layout based on it.  

 

OT but, while looking for more about the proposed Shepherds Bus terminus, I was highly amused by this from TrainLine 

Travel from Shepherd's Bush to Ealing Broadway by train in 1 hour 20 minutes

If you want to know more about the journey from Shepherd's Bush to Ealing Broadway by train, look no further!

The average journey time from Shepherd's Bush to Ealing Broadway by train is 1 hour 39 minutes, although on the fastest services it can take just 1 hour 20 minutes. You'll usually find 6 trains per day travelling the 4 miles (6 km) between these two destinations. You'll need to make 2 changes along the way to Ealing Broadway. You'll be travelling with Thameslink, London Overground or Southern on your way to Ealing Broadway, as these are the main rail operators on this route.

Or 15 minutes by tube! The perils of automated journey planning.

I also found this piece of nonsense. 

Thinking about taking the train from London Bridge to London Victoria? We've got you covered.

It usually takes around 34 minutes to travel the 3 miles (4 km) from London Bridge to London Victoria by train, although you can get there in as little as 56 minutes on the fastest services

 

Their 34 minute route is Thameslink to Blackfriars then the Underground, but the Underground alone via Westminster (Jubilee + District/Circle) takes just 11-16 minutes. The 54 minute "fastest" route is the "direct train" that offers an unguided tour of South London.  This is all a useful reminder that computers and AI systems don't do common sense.  

 

Edited March 11 by Pacific231G

[RobinofLoxley]

I've been working my way round the terminus stations looking for examples. Often there are additional complexities caused by the presence of additional sidings, but if these are ignored so you look at the trackwork of the platform access lines only, examples can be found. The other point is that one line might divide creating a fourth platform but this doesn't alter the route used by arriving or departing trains at all. An example of this would be Lowestoft central, which has extra pointwork taking lines across the main lines to goods sidings on both sides of them, including access to the harbour. It has a spur protected by a trap point. There are four platforms, two of which are common access (probably the smaller was parcels or milk) so really it's 3 line access and the turnout pattern follows my definition. I havnt checked the real layout on the ground, only the signal box diagram so far. (1967 signal box diagram)

Edited March 11 by RobinofLoxley

[RobinofLoxley]

3 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

unguided

Love it

[5BarVT]

On 08/03/2024 at 17:20, RobinofLoxley said:

Just asking, but how many UK stations actually conform(ed) to the Minories prototype, viz a 3-platform terminus with a loco layover/shunt thing, with some parallel moves for arrivals and departures, and the outermost (furthest from the station) turnout being a trailing turnout on the departures side)?

How about Swansea High Street?

Missing the loco spur, 4 platforms not 3 but are just the 3rd split into two, inner xover after the 2-3 split and extra points to the sidings (but they are in the right place for expanded Minories.

Pretty much the same operating constraints.

Paul.

And Helensburgh Central if you strip out the northernmost platform.

Edited March 11 by 5BarVT
HLC

[Nick C]

4 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Travel from Shepherd's Bush to Ealing Broadway by train in 1 hour 20 minutes

If you want to know more about the journey from Shepherd's Bush to Ealing Broadway by train, look no further!

The average journey time from Shepherd's Bush to Ealing Broadway by train is 1 hour 39 minutes, although on the fastest services it can take just 1 hour 20 minutes. You'll usually find 6 trains per day travelling the 4 miles (6 km) between these two destinations. You'll need to make 2 changes along the way to Ealing Broadway. You'll be travelling with Thameslink, London Overground or Southern on your way to Ealing Broadway, as these are the main rail operators on this route.

Any reasonably fit person could walk it in less than that!

[Nearholmer]

A lot less. Even the TfL journey planner, which sets a really low walking pace, says 1h32m to walk. I’d say an hour is more like it.

 

TfL gives the train trip time as 21m, including a 4m allowance at each end that I think is “street to train”.

Edited March 11 by Nearholmer

[Pacific231G]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

A lot less. Even the TfL journey planner, which sets a really low walking pace, says 1h32m to walk. I’d say an hour is more like it.

four MPH is a pretty fast walking pace and, according to Google maps, the distance from Ealing Broadway to Shepherd's Bush station is 3.9 miles.  You'd probably also need to add ten minutes for the four major and umpteen other road junctions. I used to cycle most of that route to work along the Uxbridge Road from Ealing Common to Television Centre and it took about 25-30 minutes - I gave up because I fancied staying alive! 

The "Super Loop 7" express bus (previously known as the 607) that stops at about every four bus stops does Ealing Broadway to Shepherd's Bush railway station in 30 minutes. 

Edited March 11 by Pacific231G

[roythebus1]

Just catching up on this thread again, L E Carroll and SW Stevens-Stratten were 2 separate people. when I joined the MRC in about 1964 Lewis Carroll was the providor of Southern rolling stock for the MRC's Longridge, Brampton sands and Calshot 00 gauge layout. He also made a number of the station buildings for the payout. He disappeared from the MRC in the late 1960s. SW Stevens-Stratten (aka Steve) was editor of the Model Railway Constructor and later Vintage Roadscene. I knew Stve quite well through the vintage vehicle movement. I went for an interview with him in 1968 as a writer for the MRC. some bloke called CJ Leigh got the job.<waves had at Chris> :)

 

I still think a better terminal plan is that used at Wimbledon and Richmond on the District Line, almost identical plans to allow arrivals and departures from 3 out of 4 platforms.

[St Enodoc]

11 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Their 34 minute route is Thameslink to Blackfriars then the Underground, but the Underground alone via Westminster (Jubilee + District/Circle) takes just 11-16 minutes. The 54 minute "fastest" route is the "direct train" that offers an unguided tour of South London. 

The late Gordon Hafter, who knew more about the Underground than most people before or since, used to reckon on 5 minutes street to train, interchange or train to street plus 2 minutes per station for all central London trips. On that basis, LB to VIC via the Jubilee and District/Circle lines, would take 5 + (3 x 2) + 5 + (2 x 2) + 5 = 25 minutes. Taking away the two train/street times, that falls within your 11 - 16 minute band. I was never late for a meeting when following Gordon's rule.

Edited March 11 by St Enodoc
clarity

[5BarVT]

10 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

The late Gordon Hafter, who knew more about the Underground than most people before or since, used to reckon on 5 minutes street to train, interchange or train to street plus 2 minutes per station for all central London trips. On that basis, LB to VIC via the Jubilee and District/Circle lines, would take 5 + (3 x 2) + 5 + (2 x 2) + 5 = 25 minutes. Taking away the two train/street times, that falls within your 11 - 16 minute band. I was never late for a meeting when following Gordon's rule.

I observe that rule too, with the exception of the Victoria Line where some of the longer sections are > 2mins.  I suspect some of the ‘new’ Jubilee line sections don’t fit either.

Paul.

[Pacific231G]

16 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

The late Gordon Hafter, who knew more about the Underground than most people before or since, used to reckon on 5 minutes street to train, interchange or train to street plus 2 minutes per station for all central London trips. On that basis, LB to VIC via the Jubilee and District/Circle lines, would take 5 + (3 x 2) + 5 + (2 x 2) + 5 = 25 minutes. Taking away the two train/street times, that falls within your 11 - 16 minute band. I was never late for a meeting when following Gordon's rule.

It depends of course on where in London Bridge and Victoria your end points are. From the main concourse at LB it's a fair walk to the Jubilee platforms which are fairly deep. The District/Circle Line platforms at Victoria are of course cut and cover so closer to the surface than the tube lines. 

All this rather reminds me of the old gag about telling a visitor to London that you can get around on foot faster than the tube and demonstrating it with a journey from Queensway to Bayswater. They look well separated on the Beck plan and involve a one stop journey on the Central and District lines with a change at Notting Hill Gate but are in reality a 3-5 minute walk.