Theory of General Minories

[DK123GWR]

11 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

this might look ok on paper but a lot of the possible routes will be compromised by having to traverse reverse curves across double slips.

The plan only uses standard points, crossings, and single slips, but yes there are a few questionable routes. 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Some while ago, the Gare de la Bastille appeared.  

 

 

Thanks to those fantastic folk at https://www.regionsetcompagnies.fr/, now eminently modellable in HO scale.

 

 

 

 

 

Possibly the most exquisite kit of a station I've ever seen.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

It can be built closely to the prototype using Rocoline W10 points and an EKW10 single slip... the only thing that can't be done is the tandem left hand turnout at the shed entrance, so I've substituted two left hand W10s instead.

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters

[Pacific231G]

6 hours ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

It can be built closely to the prototype using Rocoline W10 points and an EKW10 single slip... the only thing that can't be done is the tandem left hand turnout at the shed entrance, so I've substituted two left hand W10s instead.

 

Hi Doc.

I think it was I who posted the topographical plan which corresponds to Bastille's final layout and I think must have been drawn up for that final layout. When the terminus was at its busiest in the 1920s and not push-pull operated (which only came with 141TBs  in the final six years) there was an additional crossover which used another single slip.  

These signalling plans are purely diagrammatic - the first two are taken from a paper on the rationalisation of the terminus- and you'll see that one parallel move (platforms II & III) was missing from the pre-rationalisaton 1920 plan.  but the final one corresponds to the topographical plan. They don't include the releasing crossovers between platforms II-III and IV-V nor the three releasing traversers which were a feature of the terminus.

 

 

The three way in the annexe traction (sub-shed) was a symmetrical tg.0.10

Regions & Compagnies -one of Loco-Revue's brands- clearly used Peco code 75 for their display of the station kit

The Rocoline  W10 are pretty close. Most of the points at Bastille, including the single slip, were tg 0.13 which corresponds to a crossing angle of 7 1/2 degrees -roughly a # 8 crossing  . These were SNCF's sharpest standard points, normally just used in yards. The Rocoline W10s have a crossing angle of 8 deg but a divergence angle of 10 deg and looking at photos of the trackwork at Bastille (copyright unfortunately) so some turnouts were curved beyond the crossing  while others were straight.

This was the list of points (appareils de voie)  corresponding to the final plan.

    They left in the original Cie de l'Est releasing crossovers (1-4) but 7deg30m corresponds to Tg.013 and no. 5 is the three way in the loco depot. TJS (Traverse  Jonction Simple) is a single slip.  20 and 21 form a trailing crossover a couple of hundred metres further along the viaduct which appears in the signalling diagrams but not the topographical plan.

 

This is the plan, tidied up, with dimensions (at 10m intervals)  added .

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

On 23/09/2021 at 10:06, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

Some while ago, the Gare de la Bastille appeared.  

 

 

Thanks to those fantastic folk at https://www.regionsetcompagnies.fr/, now eminently modellable in HO scale.

 

 

 

 

 

Possibly the most exquisite kit of a station I've ever seen.

Now, to carefully lift my jaw back up off the floor and gently close mouth.  
 

In my view: stunning, absolutely stunning.  Good job no price is quoted on the website (made to order)!

 

[Pacific231G]

12 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Now, to carefully lift my jaw back up off the floor and gently close mouth.  
 

In my view: stunning, absolutely stunning.  Good job no price is quoted on the website (made to order)!

 

I'm afraid that Regions et Compagnies prices are fairly eye watering. Their mode of Dieppe Maritime, also described as a semi-kit (i.e. not everything is included) is €205  and a typical small station building is about €68-80. They are though based on specfic buildings or at least company styles and do look very good.

They're not though the first to tackle Bastille. Daniel Combrexille (who co-authored the most authoritative book on the Ligne de Vincennes) built a layout based on it and his buildings and the arches were excellent. He converted several Hornby Acho 131TBs (the locos built for the line that operated it from the mid 1920s until push-pull sets and 141TBs were cascaded from the the Gare de l'Est's suburban services when it was electrified in the early 1960s) to DCC and used the ex DR "Bastille" coaches used on the linefrom the late 1940s until the push-pulls arrived. I think both (though probably not the DCC) are what is stocking the Regions et Compagnies model.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

9 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

I'm afraid that Regions et Compagnies prices are fairly eye watering. Their mode of Dieppe Maritime, also described as a semi-kit (i.e. not everything is included) is €205  and a typical small station building is about €68-80. They are though based on specfic buildings or at least company styles and do look very good.

They're not though the first to tackle Bastille. Daniel Combrexille (who co-authored the most authoritative book on the Ligne de Vincennes) built a layout based on it and his buildings and the arches were excellent. He converted several Hornby Acho 131TBs (the locos built for the line that operated it from the mid 1920s until push-pull sets and 141TBs were cascaded from the the Gare de l'Est's suburban services when it was electrified in the early 1960s) to DCC and used the ex DR "Bastille" coaches used on the linefrom the late 1940s until the push-pulls arrived. I think both (though probably not the DCC) are what is stocking the Regions et Compagnies model.

But in my own case, having now built a small continuous circuit (always my first choice), I had finally decided just yesterday morning that a remote rural terminus could be my next layout project, not a city one…and then I saw this 

[Budgie]

Where can you get a model of a 141TB in either scale?

 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Fulgurex do a TB in HO... I imagine it will be pricey and impossible to find.

 

 

There's also a kit for €660... from www.amf87.fr kit K022

Edited September 25, 2021 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters

[Pacific231G]

3 hours ago, Budgie said:

Where can you get a model of a 141TB in either scale?

 

AMF87 have a kit on their website for €550 but if you're looking  at Bastille or the Ligne de Vincennes at any time from the 1920s to its final few years it's  ex Est 131TBs  you need and they were built specifically for the Ligne de Vincennes. Hornby-Acho produced that as a mass market product and they do appear second hand fairly often (there are two on ebay in the UK now) They're good models for their time and though the wheels and running gear are coarse by modern standards they do seem to capture the look and feel of a powerful suburban tank loco.

For some reason Hornby-Acho paired them with suburban coaches very similar to those that arrived at Bastille as push-pull sets with the 141TBs in the early-mid 1960s (coaches which AFAIK never did run work with 131TBs)   but the ex DR coaches that worked the line from the late 1940s  are available in H0 scale. Before then the line used four wheel enclosed double deck coaches know as Bidels but though there was a model of those available I don't think it's still around. 

There is a company in Nimes that produces  1:160 scale 3D prints of both 131TB and 141TB bodies here 

http://old-modeles.mozello.com/store/item/echelle-n-1160eme/locomotives-vapeurs-1-160/141tb---1160/

http://old-modeles.mozello.com/store/item/echelle-n-1160eme/locomotives-vapeurs-1-160/131tb---sncf-1160/

They take Paypal and will ship to the UK.

 

Be aware that most photos and film of the station show  Bastille with 141TBs running push-pull only because enthusiasts ignored it until it was in its final year or so.  It was always something of a Cinderalla station as- with conversion of the line "just around the corner" for decades- it was never modernised until it closed at the end of 1969. That made it a real living museum though I doubt whether the commuters who used it every day  really appreciated that.

 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Pacific231G

[2ManySpams]

On 23/09/2021 at 10:06, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

Some while ago, the Gare de la Bastille appeared.  

 

 

Thanks to those fantastic folk at https://www.regionsetcompagnies.fr/, now eminently modellable in HO scale.

 

 

 

 

 

Possibly the most exquisite kit of a station I've ever seen.

 

And a 5m+ long viaduct to go with it...

 

https://www.regionsetcompagnies.fr/produit/viaduc-des-fades

 

[Pacific231G]

24 minutes ago, 2ManySpams said:

 

And a 5m+ long viaduct to go with it...

 

https://www.regionsetcompagnies.fr/produit/viaduc-des-fades

 

Not though the 1.5km long viaduct that still runs along the side of the Avenue Daumesnil (it's now an elevated linear park) It would actually make for a vetry attractive diorama with huge scope for the boutiques and artist's workshps that now occupy the arches.  I'm actually a little surprised that Regions et Compagnies don't have it in their catalogue as it's a very attractive design.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Pacific231G

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, 2ManySpams said:

 

And a 5m+ long viaduct to go with it...

 

https://www.regionsetcompagnies.fr/produit/viaduc-des-fades

 

My old friend and colleague the late Richard Chown once built a 7mm scale model of that in his back garden.

 

There are a couple of photos in this obituary by @Portchullin Tatty of this parish:

 

https://highlandmiscellany.com/tag/richard-chown/

[Ian_H]

On 23/09/2021 at 10:06, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

Some while ago, the Gare de la Bastille appeared.  

 

 

Thanks to those fantastic folk at https://www.regionsetcompagnies.fr/, now eminently modellable in HO scale.

 

 

 

 

 

Possibly the most exquisite kit of a station I've ever seen.

Wow, that, in my humble opinion, is absolutely superb ...... and I would assume very expensive. Having looked at the web site for regions et compagnies I came across this, perhaps a little over the top for loco stabling at minories;

Edited September 26, 2021 by Ian_H
keyboard error;-)

[RobinofLoxley]

Can I just ask what the item is to the right of the turntable occupied by the steam loco? I guess its a signal gantry but as I cant zoom into it i cant see for sure.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

41 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Can I just ask what the item is to the right of the turntable occupied by the steam loco? I guess its a signal gantry but as I cant zoom into it i cant see for sure.

 

I thought it was the yard lights tower?

[DK123GWR]

9 hours ago, Ian_H said:

What are all of the stubs in between the turntable and sector plate for?

[RJS1977]

16 minutes ago, DK123GWR said:

What are all of the stubs in between the turntable and sector plate for?

 

I would imagine they would have some kind of stop block on them to prevent a loco from overrunning the turntable ("Silly old Gordon" etc).

[Nearholmer]

Does it go ‘ker-ching’ and pay out a cash prize if you get a loco from the turntable onto the simultaneously moving sector table?

[Zomboid]

5 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Does it go ‘ker-ching’ and pay out a cash prize if you get a loco from the turntable onto the simultaneously moving sector table?

Only if you can get a loco to/from one of the spurs without stopping it.

[johnhutnick]

The "stubs" on the sector plate side of the turntable allow for back and forth movement on-off the turntable when maneuvering a loco whose wheelbase almost exceeds the turntable length.

[Pacific231G]

8 hours ago, johnhutnick said:

The "stubs" on the sector plate side of the turntable allow for back and forth movement on-off the turntable when maneuvering a loco whose wheelbase almost exceeds the turntable length.

The use of such stubs seems to have been uncommon in Britain even though a certain amount of toing and froing was sometimes necessary to balance the turntable.

France though was notorious for having many turntables too short for their locos and it wasn't uncommon for locos and tenders to have to be turned separately with all the complexities of disconnecting and reconnecting pipes and chains that entailed. This was probably more true of rural termini whose traffic didn't warrant investment in larger turntables than larger depots but it wasn't unknown even there. Lines tended to be too long for the obvious expedient of tank locos and there were strict limits on the speed and distance over which locos could run tender first.

However, looking through a book on the shed of the l'Ouest I can't see any turntables with very short stubs opposite the roads accessed from the turntable.

What I did find, with a number of part roundhouses were short sidings of varying lengths opposite the stabling roads. These would have been long enough for a small shunting loco used to move dead locos to and from the roundhouse but why they were of different lengths (according to the space available) I couldn't say. Possibly the longer ones would accomodate a shunter plus a tender if that was  to be connected to a loco in the roundhose but that's just a guess. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Pacific231G

[Nearholmer]

There were also, both is Britain and France, and probably elsewhere, "turtable extenders" consisting of angle-iron, things that fitted on, and added a few cm/in. They couldn't be fitted to all types of turntable, and they must have been evil, heavy things to handle. I've never quite worked-out how they didn't interfere with the turning, but they existed!

[Regularity]

17 hours ago, DK123GWR said:

What are all of the stubs in between the turntable and sector plate for?

Possibly just not been removed from the model?

 

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

There were also, both is Britain and France, and probably elsewhere, "turtable extenders" consisting of angle-iron, things that fitted on, and added a few cm/in. They couldn't be fitted to all types of turntable, and they must have been evil, heavy things to handle. I've never quite worked-out how they didn't interfere with the turning, but they existed!

The extension rails took the form of a ramp.

[Lacathedrale]

I've been slowly building up stock (and motivation) for Katharine Street, a suburban terminus in N scale for some time, but the child in me is craving something more 'system'-like and stylised to operate on. Not quite Coarse O-gauge levels, but where I'm OK to stomach compromised train and track lengths, potentially with improbable loco combinations (within reason!) and ready-to-plonk components.

 

Way back on Page 43 I found pictures of @t-b-g's Mansfield Road as well as @Harlequin's Seironim - and it got me thinking...

 

In addition to Katharine Street, I have attempted two not-Minories in 4mm/ft. The first was a suburban branch terminus called Godstone Road. It got to the point of painted baseboards, platforms and a backscene. However, half the throat pointwork was 'assumed' on the other side of the scenic break - and every single shunt move had to occur with train moving 'off scene' onto the traverser. To compound the awkwardness of this, the double track of the layout was not matched to the track spacing of the traverser and actually physically going to the traverser required vaulting a horizontal roofing beam.

 

 

I tried again with a different prototype - an SECR plan based on Holborn Viaduct. The throat was based on Buckingham GCR's throat (fairly simplifed!) and if it were entirely hand laid, it would have been fine. However, I tried to combine hand laying with Peco track geometry retrospectively - and it was a disaster, though the Fiddle Yard was complete, the rest was sold off.

 

<no pictures of this one, didn't last long enough!>

 

I think then, it's time to revisit an actual Minories plan and consider it as close to verbatim as is feasible. This is the space I have available:

 

 

I had initially considered a layout along one wall, but I am essentially limited to 8' total length along either wall due to the location of the door - hardly enough for a layout in N let alone 00! I know I can re-hang the door, remove it, etc. but I want the layout to be harmonious with my space, not completely dominating it.

 

So, though it feels a little strange, I think the most practical solution is for a two-board layout which spans the door with a removable curve or board:

 

 

Now, to bring this back - I have been able to fit a Minories vs. Seironim plan in this space:

 

 

This can fit a pacific and three Mk1's to any of the platforms, but I would be modelling this in the pre-group era so four and six wheeled coaches and small locomotives would be the order of the day.  Using large radius Peco Bullhead turnouts, one station could be built to completion while the other was bare boards, etc. - one layout could behave as a fiddle yard for the other, or otherwise with two operators as a game of train 'pong'.

 

As a side-note it is just about possible to extend the loco spur on Seironim around as an inner loop to connect up to an engine facility to allow trains to be turned in both stations.

 

 

However, I can't help but wonder if there is a better solution.Bear in mind that the mainline might be limited to a flat surface with a retaining wall or embankment behind! I'm not interested particularly in exhibiting the layout, but will be built to be technically portable. I am leaning towards a fiddleyard-less design, with another scenic section of some variety instead, even as mundane as an engine servicing facility and carriage sheds. I am hoping for 'storage' of at least three trains [worth of stock] beyond the borders of Minories.

 

- the essential question is: If you had 4' of plain double-track mainline and 6' of space for a FY/other destination beyond the original 7' Minories board - what would you do with it?

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Lacathedrale