Theory of General Minories

[Pacific231G]

Ah yes, great ideas. Thanks.

 

Running big Pacific locos is a bit of a squeeze but that is one of the requirements of David (Pacific231G). He has a bit more room because I think he's modelling in HO scale but even then the crossover between the platforms might not be usable by his intended trains of Pacific plus 5 vehicles.

 

PhilM

 

Not really any more room Phil because French main line passenger stock from ep III was generally longer than its British contemporaries. The  prototypes of the "Bruhats" I used for my tests were 21.1m over body whereas BR Mk 1s were 17.31m or 19.35m so, though H0 is 7/8 the scale of OO, the lengths are probably comparable. If I were looking at a comparable British 4mm scale layout it would have to  be GWR/WR with Halls and Castles the longest locos. 

 

The crossover isn't really for the longest locos but more to give greater flexibility by facilitating other shunting such as releasing locos from shorter local trains. It's a moot point how much use it would actually get but I notice that  Geoff Ashdown included one in Tower Pier and that's only two metres in total plus a metre long cassette fiddle yard.

 

The old Fort William station did have a releasing crossover but it apparently fell completely out of use. Even without it that terminus offered a surprising amount of operational variety with just two points- effectively an Inglenook sidings for passenger trains and some very busy pilot locos Something derived from the Fort with the addition of goods is the other basis for a plan that I'm looking at.as it would enable longer trains with no buffer lock but would be the end of a single track line (which doesn't mean rural branch)

Edited September 20, 2017 by Pacific231G

[The Johnster]

FWIW, I'd say that an engine release on a Minories is a luxury and can only be used to any advantage on very short trains.  The layout is designed for an incoming train to either be drawn out by a pilot or as the next service by another loco, releasing the original loco, or, at quieter periods, set back out with the original loco which then runs around using the fiddle yard and station throat.

[Harlequin]

FWIW, I'd say that an engine release on a Minories is a luxury and can only be used to any advantage on very short trains.  The layout is designed for an incoming train to either be drawn out by a pilot or as the next service by another loco, releasing the original loco, or, at quieter periods, set back out with the original loco which then runs around using the fiddle yard and station throat.

 

Agreed. But it's a very cheap luxury to add that might be useful from time to time in this case.

 

Phil

[RJD]

What type of coupling and uncoupling are you planning for the layout given that the locomotives are fairly inaccessible at the buffers? 

[RJS1977]

FWIW, I'd say that an engine release on a Minories is a luxury and can only be used to any advantage on very short trains.  The layout is designed for an incoming train to either be drawn out by a pilot or as the next service by another loco, releasing the original loco, or, at quieter periods, set back out with the original loco which then runs around using the fiddle yard and station throat.

 

One of CJF's other plans had a traverser at the end of the platforms, which would allow running round without losing any of the platform length.

 

However another completely off-the wall idea I've been having recently - how about Minories as a miniature railway terminus, with a turntable beyond the platforms to double as a runround?

[Pacific231G]

One of CJF's other plans had a traverser at the end of the platforms, which would allow running round without losing any of the platform length.

 

However another completely off-the wall idea I've been having recently - how about Minories as a miniature railway terminus, with a turntable beyond the platforms to double as a runround?

He also used a sector plate at the end of platform three on one of his Minories plans to enable the platform to be the run round for the lead to a kick back goods yard (and presumably vice versa).

 

The downside of releasing traversers was that they were incredibly rare, the only one I'm aware of in a British mainline terminus was at  Birmingham-Moor. and abroad I can only think of Paris-Bastille and two in Melbourne, all long gone. Their advantage over a turntable or sector plate (such as the one at Boulogne Maritime) was that the transfer table presented a continuous track to both incoming platform tracks. For passenger trains that was surely a regulatory requirement as you couldn't have a void before the buffers but did mean that a traverser between two platforms needed three sets of rails and to be released by the signalbox before it could move.

 

I assume Boulogne got away with its sector plate, with no fewer than seven tracks coming into it,  because trains arrived there at walking pace.

 

At places like Bembridge, with only one platform, the turntable could also presumably be locked in the position where it faced the platform road. 

Electric traversers seem to have been a relatively modern development and before them , if you wanted to use a turntable release at a main line station you needed somethnig like this arrangement at the old Ramsgate Harbour terminus.

 

Each platform track ended in a buffer stop and I assume the points were only set for the turntable once an arriving train had come to a stop.

 

(not to scale)

 

The miniature railway terminus idea could be fun, there used to be a very nice one on the exhibition circuit based on the RHDR, and it does give scope for intensive working from a fairly modest terminus. The Ruislip Lido Railway uses a turntable at the end of the line to both turn and release their single ended diesel locos (and steam when its running) though that's only a single platform operation. There's also scope for freelancing and mixing whatever locos you fancy, For once the discrepancy between loco scale and track scale if you base them on OO models would be pretty realistic- weren't Henry Greenly's locos for the RHDR based very roughly on third scale locos on quarter scale track? - as would the oversize treads, flanges and crossing clearances.

 

One of my early childhood memories is from a miniature railway, I think the one at Dudley Zoo near Birmingham in the 1950s. Even as a four year old, though with a signalman grandfather,  I remember thinking that a turntable actually on the main line was very odd. My recollection is that the whole train passed over the turntable but that may be false. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Pacific231G

[RJS1977]

 

One of my early childhood memories is from a miniature railway, I think the one at Dudley Zoo near Birmingham. Even as a four year old, but with a railwayman grandfather,  I was aware of something very odd about having a turntable actually on the main line.. 

 

On a raised track miniature railway you either have to have a turntable or traverser on the main line in order to access steaming bays etc, though I know Reading Society of Model Engineers have designed some interesting raised track 'pointwork' for when they extend their circuit.

[Pacific231G]

On a raised track miniature railway you either have to have a turntable or traverser on the main line in order to access steaming bays etc, though I know Reading Society of Model Engineers have designed some interesting raised track 'pointwork' for when they extend their circuit.

Dudley was a 15" gauge railway so definitely ground level.

http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk/sls_jacobs4.htm

I hadn't realised that one of the locos used on the DZR was the same one I met years later as "Sir Winston Churchill" at Blenheim Park and its now at Evesham.  I also hadn't realised that Belnheim was a 15" gauge railway and the loco is presumably to scale for the gauge as it's a lot smaller than those on the RHDR 

 

Blenheim also used to be home to the raised track miniature railway belonging to the Witney and West Oxfordshire Society of Model Engineers (now moved to Cutteslowe Park in Oxford as the City of Oxford S.M.E.)  I think it was seeing the arrangements there that first convinced me of the essential failing of monorails. At Blenheim you had to pass through one of two swing bridge "level crossings" to get inside the circuit but I can't remember whether they used a turntable, traverser or a turnout (essentially a traverser or a rotating arrangement with one straight and one curved section of track on it) to access the steaming bay. The advantage of a turnout would be to enable trains of carriages to be run off the main line but it would be more complicated than a simple swinging section acting as a turntable.  

 

Is it just my impression or have S.M.E.s tended to move from raised to ground level track for their passenger carrying railways or is that just a function of gauge with 5" or above being ground level? 

Edited September 24, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Regularity]

At places like Bembridge, with only one platform, the turntable could also presumably be locked in the position where it faced the platform road.

 

Although it may have been capable of a full turn, the "turntable" at Bembridge, as with the others on the Isle of Wight, was used as a centrally pivoted (and hence, more balanced) sector plate. Using it as a turntable would have been pointless as there wasn't one at Bembridge. In the case of Ventnor, turning the engines would have left the firebox crown potentially uncovered on the next trip up to Ventnor.

[RJS1977]

 

Is it just my impression or have S.M.E.s tended to move from raised to ground level track for their passenger carrying railways or is that just a function of gauge with 5" or above being ground level? 

 

It's mostly a function of gauge. 5" can be raised or ground level - RSME has a raised 3 1/2"/5" circuit and a ground level 5"/7 1/4" circuit (with a linking line between the two). However I suspect there has been more of an interest in the larger gauges in recent years.

[Pacific231G]

What type of coupling and uncoupling are you planning for the layout given that the locomotives are fairly inaccessible at the buffers? 

I don't know about anyone else here but I've been using Kadees for years though sometimes Roco "harpoons" within sets. The successful EM gauge "Minories GN" also uses Kadees.

I would probably avoid an overall roof at the loco release point but I've operated an 0n30 layout using Kadees and permanent magnets where the platform ends were under a canopy and it wasn't a problem. With permanent magnets you do have to be a bit careful where they're actually sited and electromagnets are an alternative.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Pacific231G

[The Johnster]

He also used a sector plate at the end of platform three on one of his Minories plans to enable the platform to be the run round for the lead to a kick back goods yard (and presumably vice versa).

 

The downside of releasing traversers was that they were incredibly rare, the only one I'm aware of in a British mainline terminus was at  Birmingham-Moor. and abroad I can only think of Paris-Bastille and two in Melbourne, all long gone. Their advantage over a turntable or sector plate (such as the one at Boulogne Maritime) was that the transfer table presented a continuous track to both incoming platform tracks. For passenger trains that was surely a regulatory requirement as you couldn't have a void before the buffers but did mean that a traverser between two platforms needed three sets of rails and to be released by the signalbox before it could move.

 

I assume Boulogne got away with its sector plate, with no fewer than seven tracks coming into it,  because trains arrived there at walking pace.

 

At places like Bembridge, with only one platform, the turntable could also presumably be locked in the position where it faced the platform road. 

Electric traversers seem to have been a relatively modern development and before them , if you wanted to use a turntable release at a main line station you needed somethnig like this arrangement at the old Ramsgate Harbour terminus.

Ramsgate+Sea+front+train+turntable.jpg

 

Each platform track ended in a buffer stop and I assume the points were only set for the turntable once an arriving train had come to a stop.

 

ramsgate harbour stn TT arrangement.jpg

(not to scale)

 

The miniature railway terminus idea could be fun, there used to be a very nice one on the exhibition circuit based on the RHDR, and it does give scope for intensive working from a fairly modest terminus. The Ruislip Lido Railway uses a turntable at the end of the line to both turn and release their single ended diesel locos (and steam when its running) though that's only a single platform operation. There's also scope for freelancing and mixing whatever locos you fancy, For once the discrepancy between loco scale and track scale if you base them on OO models would be pretty realistic- weren't Henry Greenly's locos for the RHDR based very roughly on third scale locos on quarter scale track? - as would the oversize treads, flanges and crossing clearances.

 

One of my early childhood memories is from a miniature railway, I think the one at Dudley Zoo near Birmingham in the 1950s. Even as a four year old, though with a signalman grandfather,  I remember thinking that a turntable actually on the main line was very odd. My recollection is that the whole train passed over the turntable but that may be false. 

 

 

AFAIK, sector plates at the ends of platforms such as  Moor Street, or the traverser at Snow Hill, were used as space savers for loco release purposes only, and were not allowed to carry passenger carrying stock, and indeed had no need to carry any stock other the light engine for run around release anyway.  One would have to be fully locked in position and be fully interlocking to prevent any movement or conflicting move being signalled over them if they were; presumably similar devices could be found on swing or lifting bridges that carried passenger traffic, like at Selby on the ECML.

 

Miniature/fairground railway practice is different and is, I believe, not controlled by Board of Trade (D of E) regulations but must satisfy the requirements of public liability insurance.  

 

A sector plate, traverser, or turntable at the end of a platform for loco release purposes is an expensive solution to the problem, and hence rare; it needs a particular set of circumstances, that of intense suburban operation and limited space, to be a viable proposition.  It is, therefore, not entirely unsuitable for a Minories layout!

[Regularity]

Don't forget the arrangement at the original LCDR station at Sheerness:

[Budgie]

A sector plate, traverser, or turntable at the end of a platform for loco release purposes is an expensive solution to the problem, and hence rare; it needs a particular set of circumstances, that of intense suburban operation and limited space, to be a viable proposition.  It is, therefore, not entirely unsuitable for a Minories layout!

Two stations that had turntables at the end of a platform in the nineteenth century were Hayes (Kent) and Bromley North, both on the SECR.

[Compound2632]

Two stations that had turntables at the end of a platform in the nineteenth century were Hayes (Kent) and Bromley North, both on the SECR.

 

In fact, both SER whereas Ramsgate and Sheerness were LCDR - but nevertheless this seems to be a Kentish phenomenon?

 

There are examples from more northerly locations - several NER branch termini; this summer I saw a pair of currently-operational examples in that part of the world, on the Heatherslaw Light Railway.

[Regularity]

In fact, both SER whereas Ramsgate and Sheerness were LCDR - but nevertheless this seems to be a Kentish phenomenon?

 

If you search through early trackplans, this arrangement was more common, but usually where the engine shed was somewhere else - the turntable at the end is convenient where there is a need to turn an engine, maybe top up the water and clean out some clinker, but otherwise not require the full services of an MPD, but it is a PITA otherwise. I suspect they were quickly dispensed with, but the SER and the LCDR were both short of money, plus even the longest journey from London to Kent isn't very long, and can be served as an out and back turn for the engine and crew.

There are examples from more northerly locations - several NER branch termini

Also NBR, e.g. Rothbury.

[Compound2632]

If you search through early trackplans, this arrangement was more common, but usually where the engine shed was somewhere else - the turntable at the end is convenient where there is a need to turn an engine, maybe top up the water and clean out some clinker, but otherwise not require the full services of an MPD, but it is a PITA otherwise.

 

Indeed, I had to my shame quite forgotten the 1862 LNWR terminus at Sutton Coldfield, despite that I drew the plan for my father's little book on the line: Steaming Up to Sutton, R.M. Lea (Westwood Press, 1984). Here's a McConnell Small Bloomer, with 4-wheel tender as fitted to some for local work in the West Midlands, just drawing forward off the turntable.

 

The turntable seems to have survived the 1884 rebuilding of the station for the extension to Lichfield.

[St Enodoc]

In fact, both SER whereas Ramsgate and Sheerness were LCDR - but nevertheless this seems to be a Kentish phenomenon?

 

There are examples from more northerly locations - several NER branch termini; this summer I saw a pair of currently-operational examples in that part of the world, on the Heatherslaw Light Railway.

North Woolwich on the big railways and, I believe, Dalegarth on the R&ER.

[Pacific231G]

AFAIK, sector plates at the ends of platforms such as  Moor Street, or the traverser at Snow Hill, were used as space savers for loco release purposes only, and were not allowed to carry passenger carrying stock, and indeed had no need to carry any stock other the light engine for run around release anyway.  One would have to be fully locked in position and be fully interlocking to prevent any movement or conflicting move being signalled over them if they were; presumably similar devices could be found on swing or lifting bridges that carried passenger traffic, like at Selby on the ECML.

 

Miniature/fairground railway practice is different and is, I believe, not controlled by Board of Trade (D of E) regulations but must satisfy the requirements of public liability insurance.  

 

A sector plate, traverser, or turntable at the end of a platform for loco release purposes is an expensive solution to the problem, and hence rare; it needs a particular set of circumstances, that of intense suburban operation and limited space, to be a viable proposition.  It is, therefore, not entirely unsuitable for a Minories layout!

Mostly true except that the traversers (transfer tables in GW jargon) were at Moor Street which was a bit of a showcase for "things you can now do with electric power" from wagon lifts and traversers of several flavours to capstans and I think possibly conveyors in the low level goods shed.

 

Were there sector plates at Snow Hill?

 

I'm not at all sure why so many of the IofW termini had releasing turntables. Bembridge could easily have been equipped with a single turnout and as has been pointed out a turntable at just one end of a line for turning locos is a bit of a waste of time. Some railways turned even tank locos so, for example, all the termini on the Baie de Somme had and now once again have turntables at their ends.but didn't some of the Irish three foot railways do the same? 

 

I think the distinction between a railway and a miniature railway changed some years ago. I believe it used to be based on gauge with 12" being the point where it became a railway proper (AFAIR The 12" Ruslip Lido Railway was subject to greater regulation than the nearby 10.25" Watford Miniature Railway) I think it's now very different and based on various criteria but there's more than public liability insurance involved if your railway is ever open to the public..

 

The problem with using releasing traversers on a layout is that they were too rare. In Britain, if it has traversers then it's Moor Street (or in France Paris-Bastille) and couldn't be anywhere else. It's a bit like boat trains running through the streets. Weymouth or Dieppe respectively and again nowhere else in each country, (though Calais sort of did but a very long time ago) I don't count Canute Road in Southampton as that is really a level crossing, albeit a long one.

 

Releasing turntables or those at  the end of terminus platforms are much easier. There were enough of them to make adding another no big deal. 

With traversers you could hide them "off-stage" at the end to stand in for what would have been releasing crossovers (as with Minories GN) . 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Pacific231G

[ejstubbs]

Were there sector plates at Snow Hill?

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1679.htm

Edited September 26, 2017 by ejstubbs

[Clive Mortimore]

Surely the essence of a Minories layout is the speedy turn round of trains with loads of loco movements at the country end of the platforms. There wouldn't be the luxury of time for locos to be released at the buffer end and run round their train. The platform line they are using as a run round would have a train either on it or waiting to use it.

[Pacific231G]

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1679.htm

Thanks for this, very Interesting as they avoided the overunning into a void problem by having three sets of rails. I always understood that the BofT disapproved of multiple platform tracks converging towards a terminus though that was completely normal in other countries.

Surely the essence of a Minories layout is the speedy turn round of trains with loads of loco movements at the country end of the platforms. There wouldn't be the luxury of time for locos to be released at the buffer end and run round their train. The platform line they are using as a run round would have a train either on it or waiting to use it.

They wouldn't be for running around the same train but simply to get the incoming train's loco to the country end to take over another train as quickly a possible.

So for example, a train comes into platform 2 while an earlier train is wating to leave platform 1. It does so and the loco that brought it in follows it out. Platform 1 is now free for the loco trapped at the buffer end of platform 2 to release into it and get to the country end before the train it had brought in departs. After it does so, two more trains come into platforms 1 and 2 and there are now two locos at the country end that have had time to water and clean out their grates to take them out again.

 

There is a rational way of working commuter termini where trains depart in order from the arrivals side enabling incoming trains to replace them in turn. With push-pull working that's relatively straightforward so long as trains need the same turn round times and you arrange the timetable for the whole line appropriately  With locos, particularly steam locos hauling every train it gets a lot more involved.

I've looked at this as applied to Paris-Bastille where there were traversers but where they then developed this rational to the ultimate degree to avoid rebuillding the terminus.

[clecklewyke]

Surely the essence of a Minories layout is the speedy turn round of trains with loads of loco movements at the country end of the platforms. There wouldn't be the luxury of time for locos to be released at the buffer end and run round their train. The platform line they are using as a run round would have a train either on it or waiting to use it.

 

That was certainly CJF's idea.

 

Can  anyone say:

 

1) how long it would take to uncouple the loco of the incoming train, couple a new loco to the "country" end, connect pipes and test brakes etc. and be ready for the train to depart? 5 min. 10, 15, 20...?

 

and 

 

2) how long it would take to clean the fire, and top up coal and water ready for the next duty?

 

Of course I am asking for minimum times at a busy station, not for Ashburton!

 

I ask because I am modelling the timetable for such a station (Bradford North Western).

 

Ian

Edited September 26, 2017 by clecklewyke

[ejstubbs]

Thanks for this, very Interesting as they avoided the overunning into a void problem by having three sets of rails.

 

As did the traversers at Moor Street: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrms1223.htm - there were voids under the platforms at each side to accommodate the "spare" track.

 

Note the operating instructions: locos had to stop short of the traverser and be uncoupled before moving on to the traverser table.  It makes you wonder exactly how much space the traversers saved, if you were still left with what was effectively two loco's length of empty track between the lead coach and the buffers.  Perhaps that's why traversers didn't get used elsewhere for loco release: effectively an expensive non-solution to the problem of limited space.

 

Mind you, the same operational limitations probably applied to turntables and sector plates, especially since they seem to have had much less clearance between the converging approach roads than the nice parallel tracks approaching the traverser.  But at least with a turntable you can actually turn the loco, which the BoT seemed to be quite keen on towards the latter part of the nineteenth century (which I've read was more because of the reduced crew protection when travelling tender-first, than because there was anything mechanically unsafe about the practice).

Edited September 26, 2017 by ejstubbs

[t-b-g]

The essence of a minories is that beyond the station throat there is no point work and that either a pilot or another train loco deals with anything loco hauled.

 

Any turntable or traverser and it is still a model of a terminus but not a minories.