Theory of General Minories

[Harlequin]

3 hours ago, FoxUnpopuli said:

 

I copied this over from @Harlequin's 'Minories are made of this' thread.  Bentley are my local group, I've popped in a couple of times and threatened to join before all this recent Covid nonsense.

 

@Calnefoxile's comment is interesting, because I'd been fiddling with my Minories-inspired concept previously posted and had come up with this:

 

 

which I think is becoming quite interesting from an operational point of view, and gets me a roundy-roundy for when I just want to watch trains go by.  One of th initial issues I have is that I have lots of stock, so making the traverser be multi-deck, movable in the Z-axis, and even arranged to join with six further sidings under the 'south' end of the layout gives me plenty of storage yet faced off with scenic options from the light blue 'SX' headshunt.

 

Is that a double-ended hockey stick traverser in yellow on the right? @DavidCBroad will be overjoyed!

 

[t-b-g]

3 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Wasn't there a layout shown in a magazine that consisted of a British Terminus and a French one, each acting as the FY for the other? But, on the whole, I like the "junction fiddle yard" idea better.

 

My thoughts would to have the two ends vaguely compatible for period and region. There is always the chance that you might get asked to an exhibition and it might look a bit silly! Either a dummy junction or just a station works for me. It could even be modelled as a through station where trains terminate. You hardly see it on model railways but it was very common in real life where lines met "end on". Two lines going off under a bridge at the far end and a couple of crossovers and a bay platform or two and you have a basis for that.

[Harlequin]

12 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

My thoughts would to have the two ends vaguely compatible for period and region. There is always the chance that you might get asked to an exhibition and it might look a bit silly! Either a dummy junction or just a station works for me. It could even be modelled as a through station where trains terminate. You hardly see it on model railways but it was very common in real life where lines met "end on". Two lines going off under a bridge at the far end and a couple of crossovers and a bay platform or two and you have a basis for that.

 

I understand the concept of each station serving as the fiddle yard for the other but here's an additional idea:

Imagine that the scenic break between them was wide enough to allow the connecting track(s) to diverge so that behind each terminus was a hidden "fiddle yard" - somewhere very simple just to add and remove stock from the layout unseen.

That would be great for exhibitions. It would allow you to ring the changes so that the visible stock changes. it would even allow a train to depart one station and spend some time "travelling" before it finally arrives at the other.

 

I think the scenic break could be cunningly arranged so that it would look like a magic trick to the casual viewer. You could send a few trains straight through, back and forth to set up the idea of the simple straight tracks(s) and then say the magic word and make a train disappear into thin air!

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Harlequin

[t-b-g]

2 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

I understand the concept of each station serving as the fiddle yard for the other but here's an additional idea:

Imagine that the scenic break was wide enough to allow the connecting track(s) to diverge so that behind each terminus was a hidden "fiddle yard" - somewhere very simple just to add and remove stock from the layout unseen.

That would be great for exhibitions. It would allow you to ring the changes so that the visible stock changes. it would even allow a train to depart one station and spend some time "travelling" before it finally arrives at the other.

 

I think the scenic break could be cunningly arranged so that it would look like a magic trick to the casual viewer. You could send a few trains straight through, back and forth to set up the idea and then say the magic word and make a train disappear into thin air!

 

 

We have that on Narrow Road. Instead of going into our scenic fiddle yard/terminus station, trains can take a hidden junction and make another circuit of our optional continuous run. You do need to lengthen the layout by 2 or 3 feet to do it and if space is cramped, that may be difficult but yes, it works as an idea. You need a double junction each way, which can lead to some complex trackwork if you want to keep it short.

[Harlequin]

22 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

I don't know if the suggestion has been made already as everything seems to be spread about over several pages and topics/blogs but I really like your plan, the only change I'd make would be to make the turntable double tracked so that when rotated the loco ended up behind the train that is about to depart to the station to then follow it through the then empty road.

 

Andi

 

Very Neat Idea!

 

If it was T shaped with the pivot in the same position as your double track turntable, but only supporting one offset track then the ends could be square and alignment might be easier. (It only ever needs to rotate 180°.)

 

[Fat Controller]

There was mention of the station at Lyon St Paul. There are a couple of shots of it in L'Horlogier de St Paul, a film by Bertrand Tavernier. It is a very constrained site, with a hillside tight behind the platforms, a tunnel, and the land falling away on the other two sides. The impression is that the station was built on the spoil from the tunnel.

Despite having been electrified, trains over the last few decades have been diesel, until the line to L'Arbresle was upgraded in recent years. Trains to Lozanne are still diesel. The goods yard doesn't just act as a bus park, but has a return loop for trolley buses.

[DCB]

5 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

Is that a double-ended hockey stick traverser in yellow on the right? @DavidCBroad will be overjoyed!

 

Thanks @Harlequin.  I don't know if a double ended multi level hockey stick traverser is a dream or a nightmare. I would love to see it working but maybe the multi level double ended hockey stick is beyond 99% of  modellers DIY skills.  Great business opportunity though.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Although it would take up a bit more room, but sticking a double junction on the ends leading to two separate fiddle yards would give more scenic and operational interest, a kind of a Borough Market Junction type thing?

 

Mike.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Although it would take up a bit more room, but sticking a double junction on the ends leading to two separate fiddle yards would give more scenic and operational interest, a kind of a Borough Market Junction type thing?

 

 

You'd want four lines into the station at that rate - or maybe at least three, two arrivals and one departure.

[Enterprisingwestern]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You'd want four lines into the station at that rate - or maybe at least three, two arrivals and one departure.

 

Why so?

 

Mike.

[t-b-g]

You could get almost as much added "play value" by just adding one fiddle yard, even just a single cassette, behind one station. 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

14 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Why so?

 

Mike.

A key thing is whether you want to retain the capability* of Minories for simultaneous arrivals and departures.  I have a series of doodles that explores this, which I can hopefully post later.  If that capability is desirable, it will impose a minimum limit on tracks.

 

* I suppose that gets to the heart of the philosophy behind this thread: what does the Theory of General Minories require? (Could discuss, would rather draw).

 

In terms of well known model railways that have this kind of operation - but don’t necessarily owe anything to Minories, Bradfield Gloucester Square springs to mind: Station to Sector plate, Station to carriage sidings (in front of sector plate) and reversing from the sector plate back into the fiddle sidings.

 

Keith.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Keith Addenbrooke]

5 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

You could get almost as much added "play value" by just adding one fiddle yard, even just a single cassette, behind one station. 

A common feature in American model railroads is to do just that, pretending the cassette represents another railroad that interchanges with your principal line - it means there’s no need to try and hide the junction with the track going offstage.

It adds variety and play value, exactly as you say.

[Chimer]

IMHO, the problem with the terminus/FY to FY/terminus idea is that any terminus plan, other than a multi-platform, passenger only job, makes for a pretty inefficient FY, with lots of buildings in the way making fiddling fiddly …...

[Harlequin]

Here's my take on the requirements for the Theory of General Minories:

 

(CJF's design is an interesting Special Example of the General Theory.)

 

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

A common feature in American model railroads is to do just that, pretending the cassette represents another railroad that interchanges with your principal line - it means there’s no need to try and hide the junction with the track going offstage.

It adds variety and play value, exactly as you say.

 

That is the sort of thing I had in mind. If you just have station to station, you have a set amount of stock and locos and no way to change them other than a manual lift on and off, which could take place at the end of a run through of a sequence/timetable. If you have more trains than you have room on the layout, you run the sequence, swap the rains for others and run it again.

 

Even a single cassette gives the option to swap trains around during a sequence.

 

Then you have the whole discussion about whether that is desirable or necessary. In my experience, the most enjoyable layouts to operate are the ones where the smallest amount of work possible happens in the fiddle yard.

 

Going back to my favourite example, Buckingham, there is a total of around 100 moves in the timetable. Probably 85% of these are passenger trains. Yet there are only 6 sets of carriages, plus a single coach push/pull and a railcar. The turntable fiddle yard is rotated about 4 times in those 100 moves and that is all you do. The fiddle yard has 6 roads. If that fiddle yard was replaced by a terminus with 3 platforms and 3 sidings for carriages and/or goods trains, plus had a turntable for turning locos, it could do exactly the same job as the fiddle yard but be another scenic station. It would take very little extra room either, as you need to keep a 5ft diameter circle clear at all times anyway.

 

No stock is added or taken off during a running session and there is no need. The timetable is interesting enough as it is.

 

We are building the extended Narrow Road in a similar fashion. 5 stations, no fiddle yard. We do have more locos than we can use so there is a facility to swap locos "off stage" via loco cassettes but other than that, all the stock stays on. 

[t-b-g]

16 minutes ago, Chimer said:

IMHO, the problem with the terminus/FY to FY/terminus idea is that any terminus plan, other than a multi-platform, passenger only job, makes for a pretty inefficient FY, with lots of buildings in the way making fiddling fiddly …...

 

I think you are missing a point. You don't "fiddle". You either shunt the stock to another platform to release the loco, or you put another loco on the end to take it back out again. You operate it as a station, not a fiddle yard. Minories is always mainly passenger anyway, so just one siding for a goods train is enough. You bring the train into a platform and the pilot removes the brake van to the siding, shunts the stock onto the van and the loco goes on the front, ready to return. You could add a loading dock or other facility if you have room but it isn't vital. 

[DCB]

20 minutes ago, Chimer said:

IMHO, the problem with the terminus/FY to FY/terminus idea is that any terminus plan, other than a multi-platform, passenger only job, makes for a pretty inefficient FY, with lots of buildings in the way making fiddling fiddly …...

I suppose the answer to that is to use Web cams or CCTV to operate the FY.   I have seen layouts in American magazines of ten years plus ago where cameras monitor their hidden staging tracks.  It shouldn't be too difficult to arrange automatic uncoupling and there are lots of pug ugly but reliable turntables.  Only real issue is getting brake vans to the right end of freights as tension locks and propelling moves don't mix well.

[DCB]

22 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

I think you are missing a point. You don't "fiddle". You either shunt the stock to another platform to release the loco, or you put another loco on the end to take it back out again. You operate it as a station, not a fiddle yard. Minories is always mainly passenger anyway, so just one siding for a goods train is enough. You bring the train into a platform and the pilot removes the brake van to the siding, shunts the stock onto the van and the loco goes on the front, ready to return. You could add a loading dock or other facility if you have room but it isn't vital. 

The problem with back to back termini is the shunt move from one station appears in the other and I wouldn't like that much.  That said our FY is pretty much designed and operates like a station except simultaneous arrivals and departures from the dead end roads are not possible.   It can't be scenic as its underneath the terminus, 

[t-b-g]

7 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

The problem with back to back termini is the shunt move from one station appears in the other and I wouldn't like that much.  That said our FY is pretty much designed and operates like a station except simultaneous arrivals and departures from the dead end roads are not possible.   It can't be scenic as its underneath the terminus, 

 

On any Minories, shunting stock from one platform to another involves part of the shunt taking place in the fiddle yard unless you have room for a decent length of track between the points and the scenic exit. If you have an extra train length of space, why build a Minories anyway?

 

The way I see it working is that you start off with maybe 5 or 6 trains all ready to leave the scenic fiddleyard/terminus station. You, as sole operator, are at the other station. Maybe you have one or two trains in your Minories station. You run trains in and out for an hour or so, then you end up with 6 trains all with locos at the buffers in the fiddleyard/station. You then transfer to that operating position and start organising them all. This will involve pulling at least one train at a time through to the Minories, to release a loco or clear a platform. After 30 minutes there, you have 5 or 6 trains ready to depart, plus 1 or 2 at the other end. You move back to Minories and go again. Depending on how long people run a layout for at home, a 90 minute session might be plenty. So while you are shunting the fiddleyard/station, the Minories becomes a fictional shunting neck or headshunt.

 

You could just have a fan of 6 sidings for the fiddle yard but if I could have the whole frontage as two separate scenes, both modelled, rather than half being hidden from view all the time, I would accept the compromises. Any operating in a hidden fiddle yard just seems a waste to me.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, t-b-g said:

On any Minories, shunting stock from one platform to another involves part of the shunt taking place in the fiddle yard unless you have room for a decent length of track between the points and the scenic exit. If you have an extra train length of space, why build a Minories anyway?

 

But surely the concept of Minories is to avoid shunting stock from the arrivals to departure side? Its designed for intensive operation:

1. Train in, loco 1 uncouples.
2. Loco 2 comes out of loco siding and backs onto train.
3. Train departs, Loco 1 follows it out to end of platform, then to loco siding if there's a path, or possibly straight onto another just arrived train to take it out.

This happening at every platform as frequently as possible. Of course some of the arrivals and departures can be ECS to the offstage carriage sidings.

 

It's the ideal layout for someone with a bagfull of Terriers, though maybe Buckjumpers might be even more the thing. 

[t-b-g]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But surely the concept of Minories is to avoid shunting stock from the arrivals to departure side? Its designed for intensive operation:

1. Train in, loco 1 uncouples.
2. Loco 2 comes out of loco siding and backs onto train.
3. Train departs, Loco 1 follows it out to end of platform, then to loco siding if there's a path, or possibly straight onto another just arrived train to take it out.

This happening at every platform as frequently as possible. Of course some of the arrivals and departures can be ECS to the offstage carriage sidings.

 

It's the ideal layout for someone with a bagfull of Terriers, though maybe Buckjumpers might be even more the thing. 

 

You could do that but I personally find it limiting. Train arrives, loco on back, train leaves is OK but not really enough to sustain interest over a longer period. We are going in circles a bit (as opposed to end to end!) but many more interesting moves are possible, see the Hornby Dublo video above.

 

If people are satisfied with a basic suburban service with no shunting, that is fine but I think it wouldn't do for me. 

[john new]

Perhaps Grosmont south end gives an option for a Minoriesesque, and contemporary, alternative.  The extra crossover IIRC is part of the signalling system ready for a future expansion but not yet actually installed. With the northern (Whitby end) of the site you also get an open to view set  of stock storage sidings. 
 

[Zomboid]

Does this count as a Minories?

I've taken @Keith Addenbrooke's American passenger idea and developed it into this:

Clearly you're not folding this in half...

 

The idea is that Tracks 1 and 2 are where the trains run to/ from, and then a local station switcher (no idea what the correct terminology is, but a station pilot in UK terminology) takes the train and sorts it out ready for departure in PCSTs A&B. Train engines retire to the engine terminal, where if they're single-ended and need it there could be an off-scene turntable, or they could run round the loop to simulate turning on the wye. The balloon loops are Peco R3 and R4, which most modern US stock should be fine with (generally they say 18" radius on the box, but I only own a single passenger car, so I don't really know about those). The two balloons are where the trains would wait until they're needed next, you wouldn't really need a lot of stock to operate this as the main action would be breaking down and reforming the trains with the baggage car at the head etc. I suppose if there really is a wye then the whole exercise is a bit pointless as they'd just take the train round it, but let's just brush that one aside.

 

Most switches are #6s, there's a Y and a #5 in the engine terminal area, but I didn't really design that bit, just plonked some track down to represent where it would be.

[Joseph_Pestell]

35 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Does this count as a Minories?

I've taken @Keith Addenbrooke's American passenger idea and developed it into this:

Clearly you're not folding this in half...

 

The idea is that Tracks 1 and 2 are where the trains run to/ from, and then a local station switcher (no idea what the correct terminology is, but a station pilot in UK terminology) takes the train and sorts it out ready for departure in PCSTs A&B. Train engines retire to the engine terminal, where if they're single-ended and need it there could be an off-scene turntable, or they could run round the loop to simulate turning on the wye. The balloon loops are Peco R3 and R4, which most modern US stock should be fine with (generally they say 18" radius on the box, but I only own a single passenger car, so I don't really know about those). The two balloons are where the trains would wait until they're needed next, you wouldn't really need a lot of stock to operate this as the main action would be breaking down and reforming the trains with the baggage car at the head etc. I suppose if there really is a wye then the whole exercise is a bit pointless as they'd just take the train round it, but let's just brush that one aside.

 

Most switches are #6s, there's a Y and a #5 in the engine terminal area, but I didn't really design that bit, just plonked some track down to represent where it would be.

 

Not a "Minories" but certainly an interesting design.