Theory of General Minories

[Keith Addenbrooke]

I've had a quick look at some options for the "Second Terminus" and "Hidden Fiddle Yard" option.  I've tried to adhere to Harlequin's description of the essential elements of a Minories as best I can, while seeing what extra operation I can get, with minimal adjustments  (all doodles in Anyrail):

 

Fig 1: adding a Second Terminus: "Suburban Station":

 

(Sorry, pictures no longer available)

 

I've cut short the platforms, but tried to have the same operation at the Second Station (it uses a single slip in the entry throat for convenience and variety):

 

1.  Trains can arrive or depart from either Platform (here called 4 or 5 to avoid confusion)

2.  A loco stabling point is included for the same kind of operation, and so rakes of coaches don't have to be shunted out of the platforms at either station, as noted in earlier posts today. 

 

I should have moved the Scenic Break a bit to the right so light engines at Minories can move from the Loco siding to Platforms 2 and 3 without appearing at the second station, sorry. 

 

A Suburban Service can be operated, although for simultaneous train movements there are limitations - running a Down Service from Minories Platform 2 or 3 while running and Up Service from Suburban Station Platform 4 is difficult other than using single or possibly 2-car DMU's, and at very low speed.  I'd expect both trains to need to stop for the signals to clear and route be reset.

 

Fig 2:  Adding a hidden Cassette Fiddle Yard A behind the Suburban Station:

 

(Sorry, pictures no longer available)

 

Inserting a single slip at the entrance to Minories means I don't introduce any new Reverse Curves at Minories, and it is a trailing point for Up trains, but every train movement between the Fiddle Yard Cassette A and any Platform at Minories uses the Up line at some point, which basically rules out any simultaneous train movements if the Fiddle Yard is 'in play.'

 

Fig 3:  Double Junction

 

(Sorry, pictures no longer available)

 

Using a second single slip means Down Trains can depart from Minories Platform 1 for the Fiddle Yard Cassette A while an Up Train comes from either platform 4 or 5 at the Suburban Station towards Minories, where it could be signalled into Platforms 2 or 3.

 

I would suggest that this has now introduced additional operating options and flexibility, but there are now four lines out of Minories.

 

Fig 4: Double Fiddle Yard

 

(Sorry, pictures no longer available)

 

Adding Fiddle Yard Cassette B behind Minories takes the idea further.  A double scenic break is now suggested (probably a town scene).  I can now run a Down Train from Fiddle Yard Cassette B to Suburban Station Platform 4 while running an Up train from Suburban Station Platform 5 to any one of the three Platforms at Minories.

 

Or: a Down Train can run from Minories Platform 1 to Fiddle Yard Cassette A while running an Up Train from either Platform 4 or 5 at the Suburban Station to Minories Platforms 2 or 3.

 

With a bit more space between the stations and some careful planning, it could be made to look as if a train taking the branch lines ought to reappear at the other station.

 

As an exhibition layout it could be quite entertaining - but I'd stick to single Cassette Fiddle yards to keep "off-stage" action to a minimum, and I'd want multiple operators, even though it's still a small layout by exhibition standards.

 

A further line could complete the X by joining Fiddle Yards A and B so a train could depart, reverse, wait, then reappear at the other station without handling, but there's a risk that too much of the operators' attention gets taken backstage.

 

Is this still Minories?  Although I have introduced slip switches into the station design, I think most other requirements remain unchanged: routing through the parallelogram and simultaneous operation (with limitations) remains.  Keith. 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke
Edited for text only as photo no longer available

[Pacific231G]

15 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

My thoughts would to have the two ends vaguely compatible for period and region. There is always the chance that you might get asked to an exhibition and it might look a bit silly! Either a dummy junction or just a station works for me. It could even be modelled as a through station where trains terminate. You hardly see it on model railways but it was very common in real life where lines met "end on". Two lines going off under a bridge at the far end and a couple of crossovers and a bay platform or two and you have a basis for that.

I think a dummy junction or even just a dummy yard can work well. Maurice Deane did the latter  with his Culm Valley Branch (no 55 in the 1st edition only of 60 plans for small railways) where the yard represented nothing real but was laid out and scenicced to look like a real yard and we just don't ask why the branch passenger train is running round there.

A good example of a dummy junction (though nothing to do with Minories) is Geoff Latham's American short line Mahwah in N scale.  One 32" x 7" board is Mahwah Town and the other is Tuxedo Jcn.

the two boards bolt together to form a box and, for  operation, a short bridging section joins them together.  Needless to say we never see the mainline passenger train that connects with the combine nor the freight train that picks up and drops cars from the exchange siding.

 

With Minories, if you have room for a fan of lines to form the fiddle yard (which I certainly don't!) they could be modelled to look like the onging main line and a set of carriage sidings. Operationally they wouldn't be doing anything prototypical but the trains lined up could look the part. You'd need to keep it fairly plain to avoid snagging anything while "crane shunting" but, for a home layout in particular, it needn't look like bare boards. Just a wild thought but if you were using a traverser fiddle yard could that also be scenicced so that in its "rest" position it looks like a main line with sidings whose entry pointwork is off stage. Once again to make it loom more attractive in a room.  

 

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Fig 4: Double Fiddle Yard

 

 

Is this still Minories?  

 

I'd say not, simply because trains cannot depart from 2 and 3 for A without running wrong line.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'd say not, simply because trains cannot depart from 2 and 3 for A without running wrong line.

Ah! You‘ve got me - quite right.

[Zomboid]

If doing that kind of thing then I'd just have a larger hidden bit so the junctions can be fully hidden.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

2 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

If doing that kind of thing then I'd just have a larger hidden bit so the junctions can be fully hidden.

Fair point, although it could be argued that would be a further departure from the spirit of the Minories concept?

[Zomboid]

No, because you can keep the Minories part as originally designed, and off stage you have the option of running to the cassette/ fiddle track or the other station.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

Does this count as a Minories?

I've taken @Keith Addenbrooke's American passenger idea and developed it into this:

Clearly you're not folding this in half...

 

The idea is that Tracks 1 and 2 are where the trains run to/ from, and then a local station switcher (no idea what the correct terminology is, but a station pilot in UK terminology) takes the train and sorts it out ready for departure in PCSTs A&B. Train engines retire to the engine terminal, where if they're single-ended and need it there could be an off-scene turntable, or they could run round the loop to simulate turning on the wye. The balloon loops are Peco R3 and R4, which most modern US stock should be fine with (generally they say 18" radius on the box, but I only own a single passenger car, so I don't really know about those). The two balloons are where the trains would wait until they're needed next, you wouldn't really need a lot of stock to operate this as the main action would be breaking down and reforming the trains with the baggage car at the head etc. I suppose if there really is a wye then the whole exercise is a bit pointless as they'd just take the train round it, but let's just brush that one aside.

 

Most switches are #6s, there's a Y and a #5 in the engine terminal area, but I didn't really design that bit, just plonked some track down to represent where it would be.

I think there could be a pinch point where the Westbound and Eastbound Main lines become one?  I’m not sure if there’s a way of avoiding that while retaining the drill track (which is a good idea for switching full rakes of passenger cars), unless you add a third line to the Eastbound approach (on the outside, which becomes the Drill Track), so the Main Eastbound Line is still double track?
 

I had a look at a Wye and I think it came out at 6’ sq. with a sensible radius, and that was before adding the requisite train length beyond it to make it useful - which is now moving towards Basement Empire territory.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

7 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

No, because you can keep the Minories part as originally designed, and off stage you have the option of running to the cassette/ fiddle track or the other station.

Got it - which is why it needs a bit more space.  My first thought was that it would like two junctions next to each other, but if I’m following the thinking, would it be as if there was a junction a couple of miles down the line, but the mileage in between has been eliminated (and hidden)?

 

[Zomboid]

6 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

I think there could be a pinch point where the Westbound and Eastbound Main lines become one?  I’m not sure if there’s a way of avoiding that while retaining the drill track (which is a good idea for switching full rakes of passenger cars), unless you add a third line to the Eastbound approach (on the outside, which becomes the Drill Track), so the Main Eastbound Line is still double track?

American traffic density wouldn't generally be enough that it would cause a huge problem, as far as I know. Though if it does then the drill track can perform a double duty as an arrival line (so long as right hand running is in place, they tend to do a lot of bi-directional from what I've seen).

 

It would probably be a <20 departures per day kind of place, rather than a British style intensely worked suburban terminus. But with the constant reforming the passenger cars into the right order that would still work the switchers pretty hard.

[t-b-g]

This thread is going the way many of my layout planning doodles go. Start simply. Add more. Add even more. Add more. Realise you are so far removed from the original idea that you wouldn't start from there. Go back to basics and start again.

 

I think either a junction to give two routes to the fiddle yard or modelling the fiddle yard as a station would add at least 2ft to the length. To do both would add 4ft. If you had an extra 4ft of length, would you build a Minories? I wouldn't.

[Zomboid]

This is the kind of junction I was thinking of.

Basically a 4' hidden section between the two stations.

 

If nothing else it provides shunting necks that don't run from one terminus to the other, though if two people are operating then clearly there's collision potential.

 

It's not really a specific Minories thing though, you could do it with any two track termini. In fact one could be single track, in which case this would be a bit shorter.

 

It's something I'd consider if I had the space and wanted to build a terminal station, as I tend to think of a FY as a bit of a waste of space for a home/ single operator layout, as you'd be at risk of spending most of the time fiddling, which isn't my idea of fun.

[Chris116]

I like the idea of having the two stations and one or two fiddle yards. Personally I would do Minories as one of the stations and then have a single track station in front of the Fiddle Yard with the junction in full view. I think a double track line from Minories to Fiddle Yard with the branch to the second station being single track. I am going to have a play with AnyRail and see what I come up with. I may be a while!

[Keith Addenbrooke]

26 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

This is the kind of junction I was thinking of.

Basically a 4' hidden section between the two stations.

 

If nothing else it provides shunting necks that don't run from one terminus to the other, though if two people are operating then clearly there's collision potential.

 

It's not really a specific Minories thing though, you could do it with any two track termini. In fact one could be single track, in which case this would be a bit shorter.

 

It's something I'd consider if I had the space and wanted to build a terminal station, as I tend to think of a FY as a bit of a waste of space for a home/ single operator layout, as you'd be at risk of spending most of the time fiddling, which isn't my idea of fun.

A neat and elegant solution (much tidier than my suggestions).  Simultaneous movement is easy as long as one train is going right to left, station to station, and viewers would have no idea there are additional hidden sidings behind the stations.

 

I suppose you could further fool the punters by extending the kickback siding from Minories in front of this hidden section into some kind of industry / quayside feature (popular with CJF), so there’s a second reason for the extended hidden section (distracting attention from the junction reason).  Just a thought.

 

Keith

 

 

[Zomboid]

Add a loco spur to the top sidings and the trains can come back with a different loco to the one it went out with. Use automatic couplers and you can run pretty much the whole thing hands off. I guess that goes for any FY...

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

This is the kind of junction I was thinking of.

Basically a 4' hidden section between the two stations.

 

If nothing else it provides shunting necks that don't run from one terminus to the other, though if two people are operating then clearly there's collision potential.

 

It's not really a specific Minories thing though, you could do it with any two track termini. In fact one could be single track, in which case this would be a bit shorter.

 

It's something I'd consider if I had the space and wanted to build a terminal station, as I tend to think of a FY as a bit of a waste of space for a home/ single operator layout, as you'd be at risk of spending most of the time fiddling, which isn't my idea of fun.

 

To remove or add a cassette, you might need either access behind the layout or have the cassette at the front. Either might be a problem. I agree that anything that reduces a "dead" viewing are such as a fiddle yard and replaces it with something that adds operational and visual interest is a good thing but I would suggest that the sort of arrangement you have drawn might be more suited to an exhibition layout, with viewers at the front and operators behind, rather than a home layout, which is likely to be against a wall rather than in he middle of a room with access all round.

 

The idea above of a single track smaller station masking the fiddle yard was used on Berrow, Marthwaite and some versions of Buckingham and works well but you still have a "fiddle yard" that needs attending to, which now has restricted access because of the station in front.

 

My idea would be something like this, which is a double racked version of the one actually in use on Narrow Road. We gave that a single track approach to save complex pointwork and because we didn't need to arrive and depart at the same time.

 

Tracks one and two are purely carriage sidings, worked as such from the Minories, trains running wrong road back into the station as if the connection was on that side.

 

The other tracks, 3,4 and 5 all go through an overbridge onto short loco cassettes, where they are removed, turned if necessary then run up track 5 to the loco sidings until needed again. If required, you could run track 1 through a retaining wall onto a cassette to allow a train to be replaced with a different one "arriving from the carriage sidings" in the sequence. You can make the pointwork more complex by adding slips and a RH trailing point in the line going out to allow simultaneous arrivals and departures but as I said, we haven't bothered. We have another station just to the right of the scenic break where we cross the trains when required.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by t-b-g
Spelling

[Keith Addenbrooke]

24 minutes ago, Chris116 said:

I like the idea of having the two stations and one or two fiddle yards. Personally I would do Minories as one of the stations and then have a single track station in front of the Fiddle Yard with the junction in full view. I think a double track line from Minories to Fiddle Yard with the branch to the second station being single track. I am going to have a play with AnyRail and see what I come up with. I may be a while!

Nice idea - I’m afraid I don’t know anything about the railways around London to know what an outer station feeding a commuter terminal like Minories would look like, so I’ll be interested to see what you come up with (of course, it doesn’t have to be London).

[Harlequin]

The station facing Minories, "through the looklng glass" as it were, has a different set of problems to solve (assuming it's also double-track).

 

For instance the inbound track will naturally turn to be closest to the platforms. (In Minories the outbound track is closest to the platforms, of course). This is a problem for parallel running because all outbound trains will have to cross the inbound track.

 

So a design with similarly fiendish simplicity will be needed, and it should be called

Seironim

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Harlequin

[Keith Addenbrooke]

9 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

The station facing Minories, "through the looklng glass" as it were, has a different set of problems to solve (assuming it's also double-track).

 

For instance the inbound track will naturally turn to be closest to the platforms. (In Minories the outbound track is closest to the platforms, of course). This is a problem for parallel running because all outbound trains will have to cross the inbound track.

 

So a design with similarly fiendish simplicity will be needed, and it should be called

Seironim

 

So I googled Seironim to see what it means, before I realised...

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

The station facing Minories, "through the looklng glass" as it were, has a different set of problems to solve (assuming it's also double-track).

 

For instance the inbound track will naturally turn to be closest to the platforms. (In Minories the outbound track is closest to the platforms, of course). This is a problem for parallel running because all outbound trains will have to cross the inbound track.

 

So a design with similarly fiendish simplicity will be needed, and it should be called

Seironim

 

 

It can't be a mirror image - it has to be rotated through 180 degrees. Approximately, SEIUONIW.

[Zomboid]

2 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Nice idea - I’m afraid I don’t know anything about the railways around London to know what an outer station feeding a commuter terminal like Minories would look like, so I’ll be interested to see what you come up with (of course, it doesn’t have to be London).

Have a look at Caterham, Tattenham Corner, Hayes (Kent), Shepperton... You'll soon conclude that it can be just about anything at all. Even Epsom Downs...

[Chris116]

 

Well here is my first try at something that I think may be of use.

 

The top section with the red tracks is the fiddle yard behind a backscene and the single track station. At the other end is CJF's best, Minories with a couple of extra sidings to make goods trains between the three places possible.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Chris116
More information.

[Zomboid]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

To remove or add a cassette, you might need either access behind the layout or have the cassette at the front. Either might be a problem. I agree that anything that reduces a "dead" viewing are such as a fiddle yard and replaces it with something that adds operational and visual interest is a good thing but I would suggest that the sort of arrangement you have drawn might be more suited to an exhibition layout, with viewers at the front and operators behind, rather than a home layout, which is likely to be against a wall rather than in he middle of a room with access all round.

For a home only layout I wouldn't bother with cassettes, just a couple of stub tracks with an automatic uncoupler at the far end and a loco spur for taking the carriages back. It would work well with cassettes, or even a couple of sidings for an exhibition setup.

 

I think I'd also have a shunting neck in the front of the crossings for the RH terminus to use rather than having to go over the diamonds and create a potential collision. How useful it would be depends on how long the trains are...

[t-b-g]

4 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

For a home only layout I wouldn't bother with cassettes, just a couple of stub tracks with an automatic uncoupler at the far end and a loco spur for taking the carriages back. It would work well with cassettes, or even a couple of sidings for an exhibition setup.

 

I think I'd also have a shunting neck in the front of the crossings for the RH terminus to use rather than having to go over the diamonds and create a potential collision. How useful it would be depends on how long the trains are...

 

The design is just a quick scribble based on the single track version on Narrow Road. We do no shunting on that one other than swap the brake van to the other end of the goods using a loco cassette and to swap locos. It really is a fiddle yard with all the fiddling done without lifting things on and off (other than the loco cassettes) with added scenery. 

[t-b-g]

20 minutes ago, Chris116 said:

 

Well here is my first try at something that I think may be of use.

 

The top section with the red tracks is the fiddle yard behind a backscene and the single track station. At the other end is CJF's best, Minories with a couple of extra sidings to make goods trains between the three places possible.

 

If you replace the last point plus the 3 way in the fiddle yard with a double slip and a point you get two  longer sidings plus a third one the same length you have drawn. If you are familiar with Berrow and Marthwaite you will see how similar your idea is and they were popular enough. You would need to ensure access to the fiddle yard to make it easy to swap locos about.