Theory of General Minories

[ejstubbs]

4 hours ago, TonyMay said:

So has everyone been pronouncing Minories wrong?

 

I can tell you that he pronounced "minoress" incorrectly.  The OED is very clear that the "i" should be long, as in "miner", or indeed "minor".

 

I suspect that, rather than being a corruption of the English name of the Order of St Clare, the pronunciation of the street name is actually derived from the Latin name for the order: sorores minores.  If we assume that pronunciation of medieval Latin was similar to modern Italian, the pronunciation of the second word of that phrase would have been quite similar to that of "Minories" today, and not very like "minoress" at all.

 

This topic was previously discussed on this thread as recently as June this year:

 

 

I note that a number of comments under that YouTube video mention the Minories place name in other English cities and towns, all of which appear to be pronounced the same as the street in London.

Edited August 16, 2020 by ejstubbs

[Izzy]

On 28/06/2020 at 14:34, Keith Addenbrooke said:

 

The second drawing is not a Minories, but caught my attention because it requires the same 7' length, showing once again just how effective Minories is in the space.  

Yes, the key to Minories use of space is not just that pointwork, simple and clever though it is, but the general principle that loco hauled stock will be taken out by another loco. That the space for the train engine to run-round the carriages is not needed in terms of the restriction this places on the length of the carriages in relation to the size of the loop available. Or that a station pilot will draw the carriages out to enable release of the train engine, even if that re-couples and works them out again.
 

Izzy

Edited August 16, 2020 by Izzy

[Flying Pig]

4 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

I can tell you that he pronounced "minoress" incorrectly.  The OED is very clear that the "i" should be long, as in "miner", or indeed "minor".

 

That's a modern pronunciation.  During the centuries when the order existed in England (and may have given rise to place names), English vowels were quite different and much closer to the ones that would have been used for Latin. (A speculation - "minoress" is itself a corruption of Latin "minores"  by English speakers ignorant of Latin applying a bit of folk etymology.)

[Sturminster_Newton]

On 16/08/2020 at 17:58, Flying Pig said:

 

That's a modern pronunciation.  During the centuries when the order existed in England (and may have given rise to place names), English vowels were quite different and much closer to the ones that would have been used for Latin. (A speculation - "minoress" is itself a corruption of Latin "minores"  by English speakers ignorant of Latin applying a bit of folk etymology.)

 

How many Latin or Esturine  fluent angels would there be on this pin-head?

 

We all know where it is, what it is and all of a sudden it is suddenly imperative to revert back nearly 2000 years to pronounce it properly.

 

Be careful that West super Mare is not subject to Weston Sur La Mer enforcement by those of Norman french lineage although it more likely to have been given a Latin name...given the scribes of the age.

 

Although it may yet kneel to becoming Weston Sous La Mer but universally an somewhat unkindly known currently as Weston On The Mud...

 

Can it be long until the town to Brighton's western edge, becomes Hovactuly?

 

Language is dynamic and English especially so, it has sucked up contorted and absorbed so many other languages and continues to do so, innit?

[Sturminster_Newton]

In the CJF 60 Plans For Small Railways on page 20 plan SP35 describes itself as Mynoreese but so does plan SP36 and SP37. CJF pretty much bases every BLT or Mainline Terminal thereafter has features that give it a Minor-ease derivation.

 

This is not a bad thing but one would have thought that a little more variation should have been presented.

 

Which is probably what opened the door to Paul Lunn and others to put together new and promising designs with a wider scope and less reliance on a story told more than once.

[Nearholmer]

Mr Newton

 

The great thing about these divergences from topic is that it is possible to learn interesting, if largely irrelevant, things from them.

 

Kevin

[Compound2632]

32 minutes ago, Sturminster_Newton said:

How many Latin or Esturine  fluent angels would there be on this pin-head?

 

All of them - omniligualism goes with the job. However, there are those who assert that their primary language is Welsh.

[Joseph_Pestell]

30 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

All of them - omniligualism goes with the job. However, there are those who assert that their primary language is Welsh.

 

Sadly, I have recently had to book a "speed awareness course". At the moment, due to Covid, they are all online using Zoom (which will be a technological challenge). At our local centre, despite being in England, one can book to do the course in Welsh. I think that not understanding any of it might be a bonus.

[Pacific231G]

59 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Mr Newton

 

The great thing about these divergences from topic is that it is possible to learn interesting, if largely irrelevant, things from them.

 

Kevin

I've learnt the term hypercorrection which includes things like sales staff saying myself and yourself instead me and you. It's generally when people are trying very hard to use  "correct" English (or whatever language is involved) and getting it wrong.  It seems to come from grammarians trying to reduce our language to a series of fixed rules that are so convoluted that only they know them all so can feel superior to the rest of us. The stilted and awkward English that usually results reminds me of the German Officer in Those Magnificent Men in Their Flying Machines who tried to fly by  following a set of written instructions.

[Pacific231G]

On 19/08/2020 at 15:10, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Sadly, I have recently had to book a "speed awareness course". At the moment, due to Covid, they are all online using Zoom (which will be a technological challenge). At our local centre, despite being in England, one can book to do the course in Welsh. I think that not understanding any of it might be a bonus.

Happily, if it's a good speed awareness course, you'll learn a great deal from it that you didn't know you didn't know. I certainly did and though I did  it at a centre in Oxfordshire some years ago, most of the material was presented on the PCs we all sat in front of.  If you treat it as an opportunity to learn you'll probably enjoy it. By and large, those who regarded it as an unwelcome penalty didn't.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just now, Pacific231G said:

Happily, if it's a good speed awareness course, you'll learn a great deal from it that you didn't know you didn't know. I certainly did and though I did  it at a centre in Oxfordshire some years ago, most of the material was presented on the PCs we all sat in front of.  If you treat it as an opportunity to learn you'll probably enjoy it. By and large, those who regarded it as a penalty didn't.

 

Reports that I have had (mainly from ex-SWMBO who did two) don't fill me with hope.

 

A neighbour went to his in the car that he was driving when "gunned" - a 1915 Talbot.

[Budgie]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

All of them - omniligualism goes with the job. However, there are those who assert that their primary language is Welsh.

 

Well, Welsh is the language of heaven, after all.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Budgie said:

 

Well, Welsh is the language of heaven, after all.

 

That was what I was saying...

[Nearholmer]

In the very unlikely event that i ever get to go there, I shall remember to pack an umbrella.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

In the very unlikely event that i ever get to go there, I shall remember to pack an umbrella.

 

The rain it raineth on the just
And also on the unjust fella;
But chiefly on the just, because
The unjust hath the just’s umbrella.

Charles Synge Christopher Bowen

[Lacathedrale]

Pulling the topic slightly more close to the original stated description - I wonder if there is a way for one to determine a sequence for a Minories plan. I've been thinking as (one would hope) a traffic modeller does. That is, someone formulating traffic lights at intersections and junctions by modelling the flow in various directions. I don't know if that's what actually happens, or whether I just think it should - but in the case of a four way junction I don't think it would be all that unreasonable to be able to measure the number of vehicles  coming from each direction and their exit to better tune the lights.

 

Is there such a possibility for Minories? On a layout whose main benefit is the ability to model somewhat convincingly an urban terminus, running 'whatever you want, whenever you want' does seem a little contrary to my understanding. There's no jeopardy or excitement of getting snookered or not having a set of coaches handy, if you're playing both white and black (or, fiddle yard and station master).

 

Sutton Road (which I think originated here but ended up on Carl Arendt's website way back in 2007) is a three road terminus with a 20 step operating sequence: https://www.carendt.com/small-layout-scrapbook/page-67-november-2007/, so obviously it can be done - but can we 'generate' a sequence?

[Lacathedrale]

i.e. given a roster, can one 'solve for Minories' ?

 

Inputs:

Loco A, B (tender) and C (tank), and Z (pilot)

Coach Set J, K (intercity) and L, M (suburbans), and P (pullman)

NPCS R, S and T

Platforms 1,2,3 and 8 (bay), 9 (pilot) and 0 (headshunt)

 

Outputs:

There should be a 3:2:1 ratio of suburban:regional:national trains,

 

Rules:

If all platform roads are occupied, the next movement must release a platform road either as a train or ECS movement

Tender locos must be turned except on suburban services

Suburbans can be pulled by any loco, regional and national trains  must be by tender locos

 

I'm sure this could be codified as a manual easily, but my brain can't grasp it!

[Guest WM183]

If one could stretch minories out to say 12 feet in 4mm / EM could you get some goods working in? Say at the non platform end? And how long should turnouts be to avoid s curves with 57 or 60 foot stock?

[St Enodoc]

26 minutes ago, WM183 said:

And how long should turnouts be to avoid s curves with 57 or 60 foot stock?

It's not the turnouts. It's the length of straight track between curves.

 

To eliminate reverse curves completely the intervening straight needs to be at least as long as the distance between the outermost wheels on two adjacent vehicles.

[TravisM]

I’ve always wondered if Reading station platforms from 1 - 3 could be adapted to fit the Minories plan?  This of course would have to before the recent remodelling of the station, say the 1980’s?

[Zomboid]

8 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

i.e. given a roster, can one 'solve for Minories' ?

An interesting idea. I'd start at the other end though - we'd need to imagine the route that runs from Minories outwards.

 

Taking my idea of many pages ago of a combined LSWR & GCR station in Oxford, the routes it would serve are:

LSWR fast to Waterloo

LSWR semi fast to Waterloo

LSWR slow to Windsor & Eton Riverside

GCR (or maybe Metropolitan) Semi fast to Marylebone/ Baker Street

GCR/ Met Slow to Quainton Road

GCR Semi Fast to Leicester

 

Plus perhaps an occasional long distance train to Sheffield or Southampton.

 

I'd imagined the LSWR services as being more frequent.

 

I'd then try to come up with a timetable. The number of different sets of carriages & locos would follow on from that.

 

This being a joint station I would hope that the operating agreement would have one of the companies providing the pilot, but coaching stock would be route specific.

[whart57]

Does a Minories style of layout have to be a passenger station, or could it be a goods-only job?

[Joseph_Pestell]

11 minutes ago, whart57 said:

Does a Minories style of layout have to be a passenger station, or could it be a goods-only job?

 

Of course it could. Think of locations such as the old station at York that became a parcels depot as well as urban goods depots in the bigger cities like London, one of which was called Minories, although Haydon Square might be a better example.

 

 

[Satan's Goldfish]

14 minutes ago, whart57 said:

Does a Minories style of layout have to be a passenger station, or could it be a goods-only job?

 

No reason why not, but what goods are you thinking that would require a directional twin track approach? Could work as the end of an intermodal branch maybe? ...

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

No reason why not, but what goods are you thinking that would require a directional twin track approach? Could work as the end of an intermodal branch maybe? ...

 

Pretty much any urban goods station before rationalisation - they were busy places, laid out with arrival and departure lines. The Minories layout in detail isn't so relevant though. The usual mode of operation would be for a train to arrive on the reception line, then have the brake van removed and the train drawn off the locomotive, onto the headshunt (the departure line might serve) and then shunted into the sidings / warehouse lines as required. Locomotive departs, crossing to the departure line, or maybe hangs about for the next trip out. Outgoing trains would be assembled on the departure line(s). If one goes back far enough, there could be express goods train arrivals and departures directly from the station - justifying the appearance even of express passenger engines - but by the BR period, I think most movements would be trip workings to the out-of-town marshalling yard. So mostly shunting tank engines and older goods engines on trip workings. By the 60s, some such stations became primarily parcels depots, so would see more arriving / departing long distance trains.

 

Birmingham Central Goods is a good example. In this case, arriving goods trains were drawn out via crossover points 6 onto the departure line, then via points 7 for the Holliday Street side of the station - all this in the tunnel. This is an example of a goods station that became a parcels depot, even seeing Princess Coronation class pacifics in the 60s. 

 

Minories, with only three platform roads, is designed as a narrow layout; the principal problem trying to build a goods station on the same footprint is that a goods station tends to be wide, with many sidings. I tried building a layout inspired by Birmingham Central in 00, with 2 ft width it was just about possible to have an interesting and workable layout.