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Theory of General Minories


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25 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

It's not quite the same these days, it even seems quieter though it won't be.

Literally it will be, since the electric trains will be much quieter, and modern DMUs definitely make a different noise to the older ones - not necessarily less of it though.

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54 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Literally it will be, since the electric trains will be much quieter, and modern DMUs definitely make a different noise to the older ones - not necessarily less of it though.

I guess now it will be with all electric services between Liverpool and Manchester via Chat Moss and the 319s on other routes but even before that it seemed to have lost character.

 

It's certainly not short on diesels - 150, 153, 156, 158, 175, 185 & 195s.  Throw in the 142s and you could do a good representation of early 1990s Oxford Rd in N with the last of the 108s and 101s.

 

Maybe I just liked the smoky first gen units with all their rattles whilst idling.

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I remember looking out of my lecture rooms at UMIST at the line between Oxford Road and Piccadilly around 1970, and thinking that the intensive train service, with both tracks signalled bidirectionally would make an interesting layout. But then I went back south for the vacations and saw sense.

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13 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I used to use Oxford Road a lot for travel as it is the terminus of the local Liverpool stoppers that go via Warrington.

 

I remember in the 1990s standing there watching the last of the first generation DMUs and thinking this would be a great layout - very intense running and freightliners to boot.  Maybe this is why I cannot part with my N gauge DMUs because I've got this deep set memory.

 

It's not quite the same these days, it even seems quieter though it won't be.

 

Crikey - I was working at the University of Manchester throughout the 1990s, but only became a commuter from Adlington (Lancs) to Oxford Road between 2000-2004 after buying a house there next to the Leeds-Liverpool Canal, and a brisk 5 minute walk to Adlington station!

 

Mind you, dashing up the steps from Oxford Road itself, through the barriers and then up and over the footbridge to the platform to catch my train home was a far too frequent dose of exercise! On the one occasion I simply could not miss the Blackpool North train (as I had an appointment for innoculations for my honeymoon, and it was the last date I could have them!), I was making my way up the steps when I heard my train announced! I immediately sprinted (what felt like vertically) and got to the barriers to hear the announcement change to the Llandudno train from my platform. No sooner had I presented my ticket than it announced my train again! I sprinted over the footbridge to see the train already pulling in, the lead carriage of the DMU having already passed the foot of the stairs. Glancing at the monitor showing the Blackpool North information and seeing how busy the platform was (it was rush hour) I turned sharp right at the foot of the stairs and made my way right to the front passenger door, jumping on board just as the beeps started and the doors closed!

 

The first spare seat was at a table seat, with a gentleman sat reading a newspaper opposite. He glanced up at me as I collapsed, gasping for breath, in the seat opposite. The train set off, and pulled into Deansgate Station a few hundred yards down from Oxford Road. Still breathing heavily, and with my heart pounding in my ears (I didn't say the exercise made me any fitter!), I only half heard the on train announcement, but it did strike me that it wasn't a very long list of stations...

 

To be clear, my train stopped at all stations en route; the Windermere service which ran at a similar time (either a few minutes before or after my train, dependent upon how delayed it was that day) stopped at all the stations except Adlington - I had accidentally caught that train a few times, and had to stare forlornly out of the doorway window as I stood in the end vestibule expecting to alight, as instead the train sailed through, not stopping until Chorley!

 

It suddenly dawned on me that perhaps I had got on that train again. Not a problem, I could jump down at Bolton and simply transfer to the following Blackpool North train. After a few moments of panic, I therefore relaxed and concentrated on steadying my breathing.

 

The train set off from Deansgate but I did not sense the usual swing to the right as the train headed for Salford Crescent. Instead, looking out of the window, I immediately did not recognise the passing scenery!

 

Catching my breath, I finally managed to speak to my table companion...

 

"Excuse me. This is the train for Windermere, isn't it?"

 

He looked at me as if I had asked him if he thought knitting with herrings was an olympic sport.

 

"No... this is the express for Llandudno"

 

It was one of those moments that is seared into my memory, like accidentally pushing the emergency stop on a commuter train whilst on a school trip to Denmark...

 

I fished out my ticket, looked at it, glanced out of the window, then back at the bearer of the news of my impending doom, before my mouth opened once again, totally disconnected from my brain, and I asked,

 

"So, it doesn't stop at Adlington?"

 

I remember him looking at me like I was a complete simpleton before he obviously realised that I was in shock at his revelation.

 

"Er, no. The next stop is in Warrington."

 

"Warrington?!" I must have said it a bit loud, because he looked like he might decide to make a run for it away from the loony sitting opposite. "I haven't got a ticket for Warrington!" (To be fair, that probably confirmed I was a lunatic!)

 

I fished my Nokia brick (mobile phone) out of my bag and managed to leave a message on my fiance's voicemail asking her to ring the surgery and explain I would be late for my appointment as I was going to Wales. (Yes. It probably sounded as mad as that just did, but I wasn't thinking straight!) I then sat and fretted about not having the right ticket for my journey awaiting the arrival of the conductor, my table companion having taken refuge back behind his paper.

 

The guard duly arrived, and seemed to take forever to reach me. When he did, I explained I was on the wrong train and didn't have the right ticket. 

 

"Don't worry - it's you and over a dozen others!" 

 

At the last moment, the decision had been taken to put the delayed Llandudno train in front of the late running Blackpool North train, and Oxford Road had not had time to update the display screens before it arrived. The passengers who had incorrectly got on the train had not seen the front of the train with its destination displayed, and we had got on board just before the screens had updated and they reannounced the train. A few had got off at Deansgate realising their error, but the guard was at the far end and many had been trapped once the train had left Deansgate. So I asked what my options might be?

 

"You can get off at Warrington Bank Quay and wait for the next train back to Manchester." (That would be back to square one, plus take me further into the rush hour!) "Or you can jump on the Preston train and then go back from there. Or take the Preston train and get off at Wigan, take the train to Bolton, then rejoin the Blackpool North train there."

 

But what about tickets, I wondered. The lovely guard scribbled a note on the back of my ticket. "Anyone asks, tell them what happened and show them that!"

 

I got off at Warrington Bank Quay. A short time later, a Virgin train pulled in. (To my shame, I cannot remember any details - it may have been loco hauled, I simply never registered that information. I had other things to worry about. Like, how was I going to be innoculated in time for my honeymoon?!) I do remember it being fast, but I felt uncomfortable clutching my Northern Rail return ticket on a Virgin train, so jumped off at Wigan. Did I then have to transfer over to Wigan Wallgate for the Bolton train? I can't remember, but eventually I was at Bolton station, and waiting for the train that would drop me at Adlington. I arrived home a mere three hours late for my appoinment!

 

What has any of this got to do with Minories? Well, there was a bay platform at Oxford Road a little like Platform 3 in the original Minories plan, so Oxford Road would make an interesting Minories-like through station with services terminating and starting in the bay platform for added operational interest. Freightliners still pass through, now hauled by the ubiquitous Class 66 "sheds", but I haven't been there since the route was upgraded to OHL. The station building itself is also interesting, with the wooden overall roof (assuming it is still there) and the whole thing on top of a viaduct threading between tall inner city buildings. Modelled accurately, you could even include the famous "Hacienda" night club in the buildings alongside!

 

Steve S

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Thanks to all the track geometry experts who have posted examples and explanations.

 

Can I impose on their generosity with another question? Here's one I prepared earlier - but there's something wrong with it.

 

image.png.b2bec6d84cb5bb8e21ea5902f76a0470.png

 

The same problem (a gap) appears in both a Hornby version and a Peco version.

 

image.png.24623a2c74c3a385933494b833d363d1.png

 

What have I done wrong?

 

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From playing with Hornby track on Minories variants, I seem to remember they produce a tiny length of straight track that neatly fills the gap you’ve created. 
 

Though it was about 20 years ago, so no promises!

 

Paul

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1 minute ago, Fenman said:

From playing with Hornby track on Minories variants, I seem to remember they produce a tiny length of straight track that neatly fills the gap you’ve created. 

 

That short straight piece is 38 mm long - I think it fills the gap if you use second radius points. The gap is shorter with the "express" points that @KeithMacdonald has used here.

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Nothing wrong; you are a blameless victim of geometry. 

 

 

 

Yes, all comes down to trigonometry.

 

A length of track aligned diagonally (in this case a straight section of a point and a curved section) will always cover a somewhat shorter horizontal distance than a piece aligned horizontally - the difference being related to the angle at which the track is aligned - the steeper the angle to the horizontal, the shorter the horizontal component gets.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

A length of track aligned diagonally (in this case a straight section of a point and a curved section) will always cover a somewhat shorter horizontal distance than a piece aligned horizontally - the difference being related to the angle at which the track is aligned - the steeper the angle to the horizontal, the shorter the horizontal component gets.

 

In other words, if you form a crossover using two points of the opposite handedness, you break the system.

Edited by Compound2632
opposite not same
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10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

In other words, if you form a crossover using two points of the same handedness, you break the system.

 Using a pair of the same handedness is fine - it's using two points of opposing handedness that cause the trouble - and even then, usually when other points are involved.

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5 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

 Using a pair of the same handedness is fine - it's using two points of opposing handedness that cause the trouble - and even then, usually when other points are involved.

 

Doh. I didn't say what I meant. Post amended!

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I make the gap 10.5 mm using long Streamline points - less than a single fishplate!  Do-able, but probably simpler all round if the distance between the toe-to-toe points was increased a bit - perhaps by using the shortest Set-track straight on the line with the current gap, and a shorter bit of flexi on the other. 

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On 04/11/2020 at 14:51, KeithMacdonald said:

Thanks to all the track geometry experts who have posted examples and explanations.

 

Can I impose on their generosity with another question? Here's one I prepared earlier - but there's something wrong with it.

 

image.png.b2bec6d84cb5bb8e21ea5902f76a0470.png

 

The same problem (a gap) appears in both a Hornby version and a Peco version.

 

image.png.24623a2c74c3a385933494b833d363d1.png

 

What have I done wrong?

 


 

Back on page 32 (early June) I posted this:

 

DFB92994-3312-46C3-9264-F1D6F446EC45.jpeg.14aeededa44434517ace2bc79e26989a.jpeg

 

As others have explained, I was able to make it all fit because I avoided the “opposite hand” problem in my diamond...

 

...but I get a horrendous S-curve front and centre instead as a consequence.

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On 03/11/2020 at 02:31, SteveyDee68 said:

 

Crikey - I was working at the University of Manchester throughout the 1990s, but only became a commuter from Adlington (Lancs) to Oxford Road between 2000-2004 after buying a house there next to the Leeds-Liverpool Canal, and a brisk 5 minute walk to Adlington station!

 

Mind you, dashing up the steps from Oxford Road itself, through the barriers and then up and over the footbridge to the platform to catch my train home was a far too frequent dose of exercise! On the one occasion I simply could not miss the Blackpool North train (as I had an appointment for innoculations for my honeymoon, and it was the last date I could have them!), I was making my way up the steps when I heard my train announced! I immediately sprinted (what felt like vertically) and got to the barriers to hear the announcement change to the Llandudno train from my platform. No sooner had I presented my ticket than it announced my train again! I sprinted over the footbridge to see the train already pulling in, the lead carriage of the DMU having already passed the foot of the stairs. Glancing at the monitor showing the Blackpool North information and seeing how busy the platform was (it was rush hour) I turned sharp right at the foot of the stairs and made my way right to the front passenger door, jumping on board just as the beeps started and the doors closed!

 

The first spare seat was at a table seat, with a gentleman sat reading a newspaper opposite. He glanced up at me as I collapsed, gasping for breath, in the seat opposite. The train set off, and pulled into Deansgate Station a few hundred yards down from Oxford Road. Still breathing heavily, and with my heart pounding in my ears (I didn't say the exercise made me any fitter!), I only half heard the on train announcement, but it did strike me that it wasn't a very long list of stations...

 

To be clear, my train stopped at all stations en route; the Windermere service which ran at a similar time (either a few minutes before or after my train, dependent upon how delayed it was that day) stopped at all the stations except Adlington - I had accidentally caught that train a few times, and had to stare forlornly out of the doorway window as I stood in the end vestibule expecting to alight, as instead the train sailed through, not stopping until Chorley!

 

It suddenly dawned on me that perhaps I had got on that train again. Not a problem, I could jump down at Bolton and simply transfer to the following Blackpool North train. After a few moments of panic, I therefore relaxed and concentrated on steadying my breathing.

 

The train set off from Deansgate but I did not sense the usual swing to the right as the train headed for Salford Crescent. Instead, looking out of the window, I immediately did not recognise the passing scenery!

 

Catching my breath, I finally managed to speak to my table companion...

 

"Excuse me. This is the train for Windermere, isn't it?"

 

He looked at me as if I had asked him if he thought knitting with herrings was an olympic sport.

 

"No... this is the express for Llandudno"

 

It was one of those moments that is seared into my memory, like accidentally pushing the emergency stop on a commuter train whilst on a school trip to Denmark...

 

I fished out my ticket, looked at it, glanced out of the window, then back at the bearer of the news of my impending doom, before my mouth opened once again, totally disconnected from my brain, and I asked,

 

"So, it doesn't stop at Adlington?"

 

I remember him looking at me like I was a complete simpleton before he obviously realised that I was in shock at his revelation.

 

"Er, no. The next stop is in Warrington."

 

"Warrington?!" I must have said it a bit loud, because he looked like he might decide to make a run for it away from the loony sitting opposite. "I haven't got a ticket for Warrington!" (To be fair, that probably confirmed I was a lunatic!)

 

I fished my Nokia brick (mobile phone) out of my bag and managed to leave a message on my fiance's voicemail asking her to ring the surgery and explain I would be late for my appointment as I was going to Wales. (Yes. It probably sounded as mad as that just did, but I wasn't thinking straight!) I then sat and fretted about not having the right ticket for my journey awaiting the arrival of the conductor, my table companion having taken refuge back behind his paper.

 

The guard duly arrived, and seemed to take forever to reach me. When he did, I explained I was on the wrong train and didn't have the right ticket. 

 

"Don't worry - it's you and over a dozen others!" 

 

At the last moment, the decision had been taken to put the delayed Llandudno train in front of the late running Blackpool North train, and Oxford Road had not had time to update the display screens before it arrived. The passengers who had incorrectly got on the train had not seen the front of the train with its destination displayed, and we had got on board just before the screens had updated and they reannounced the train. A few had got off at Deansgate realising their error, but the guard was at the far end and many had been trapped once the train had left Deansgate. So I asked what my options might be?

 

"You can get off at Warrington Bank Quay and wait for the next train back to Manchester." (That would be back to square one, plus take me further into the rush hour!) "Or you can jump on the Preston train and then go back from there. Or take the Preston train and get off at Wigan, take the train to Bolton, then rejoin the Blackpool North train there."

 

But what about tickets, I wondered. The lovely guard scribbled a note on the back of my ticket. "Anyone asks, tell them what happened and show them that!"

 

I got off at Warrington Bank Quay. A short time later, a Virgin train pulled in. (To my shame, I cannot remember any details - it may have been loco hauled, I simply never registered that information. I had other things to worry about. Like, how was I going to be innoculated in time for my honeymoon?!) I do remember it being fast, but I felt uncomfortable clutching my Northern Rail return ticket on a Virgin train, so jumped off at Wigan. Did I then have to transfer over to Wigan Wallgate for the Bolton train? I can't remember, but eventually I was at Bolton station, and waiting for the train that would drop me at Adlington. I arrived home a mere three hours late for my appoinment!

 

What has any of this got to do with Minories? Well, there was a bay platform at Oxford Road a little like Platform 3 in the original Minories plan, so Oxford Road would make an interesting Minories-like through station with services terminating and starting in the bay platform for added operational interest. Freightliners still pass through, now hauled by the ubiquitous Class 66 "sheds", but I haven't been there since the route was upgraded to OHL. The station building itself is also interesting, with the wooden overall roof (assuming it is still there) and the whole thing on top of a viaduct threading between tall inner city buildings. Modelled accurately, you could even include the famous "Hacienda" night club in the buildings alongside!

 

Steve S

Hi Steve

 

Did you have a good honeymoon?

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What sort of answer does such a question expect?

 

"Yes - brilliant. It rained every day and we never left the hotel."?

 

"I spent my honeymoon in a place called Invergeeky. It's a wild and lonely place, you understand. The nights were long, and there was nothing else to do...."

 

image.png.a89f7756744b12f1e503f594eff03401.png

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12 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Steve

 

Did you have a good honeymoon?

 

Two weeks in Jamaica at Sandals (all inclusive) ... having got married 5 days after the attacks on the World Trade Centre in New York!

 

Will never forget the Captain's calm announcement as we flew south along the edge of American airspace...

 

"Ladies and gentlemen, if you care to look through the windows on the right side of the aircraft, you can see two of our friends from the US Airforce flying alongside us. They are very keen that we do not enter US airspace, and so also are we, given that their standing orders are to shoot us down should we do so."

 

HOURS OF FRETTING FUN!

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Can I join in the maximum Minories. It works.

1366883912_newmaster6insplatscenica.png.8d97d99c69fd54fee0cec5796a006613.png

 

 

All platforms accessible from both main lines. I have made it as to enter either loco yard the locos from the platforms have to reverse in to them and there is no direct entry off the mainlines to them but locos can depart straight on to the main line. All platforms and fiddle yard roads can take the longest train a 8 car DMU. I keep to the rule of only one train per platform or fiddle yard road irrespective of its length, so if a train leaves the fiddle yard, it leaves a space for any size train to replace it. The best part about it is it works and is fun to operate.

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