Theory of General Minories

[2E Sub Shed]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

 

 

Northampton Town aka the "Cobblers" were Southern League champions in  1908-09 season. Lost the charity shield match to Newcastle that year.

 

The Cobblers also hold the record for fastest rise from old Div 4 to Div 1 & back to Div 4 in the 1960's. 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

I’ll try to find the magazine article about the model, and why they presented it to Swindon Town, but the latter reached the FA Cup semi-finals in the 1909-10 season, losing to Newcastle, which I think had something to do with it.

 

You are making me wonder if it was actually the 1908-09 season, though, because Northampton came top, and Swindon second by a very short margin, which suggests lots of friendly rivalry.

 

Er, sorry La Cathedrale, not for the first time I seem to have badly drifted your thread.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Lacathedrale]

I felt somewhat compelled when I saw this at the local deli:

 

 

Though clearly diverging somewhat from the Theory of General Minories, I'll take this quick moment to illustrate the advice of @Regularity and @t-b-g, where one can maximise a Micro-station infront of a Minories FY:

 

 

Flipping the station to place the platform forward permits the yard to fill the otherwise unused wedge between the end of the runaround loop and the FY sidings. Extending the headshunt of the branch station to the end of the board to simulate a passing station visually seems to work reasonably well, I would imagine a level crossing gate or road bridge with steps down to platform level, etc. The elements could be tweaked a little - but in essence I think that's it.

 

Minories set as it is in a fairly cramped baseboard is probably bounded by the trackbed footprint, so maybe nothing much more than a wall and a few low relief buildings at the rear would suffice. For scenic treatment a micro-station in this format will require a fairly vertical divider behind the goods yard - maybe a retaining wall like Thornton Heath?

 

Part of the challenge of the Minories boards is that one has to a) maintain a reasonable radius on the 90 degree curve, while b) bringing the Minories throat towards the front of the board to clear the door swing. It does just about fit - below showing two 4' x 18" wide boards:

 

 

 

I certainly feel a temptation to add more to the station - something outboard of P3, etc. - but I think the layout fulfills itself well without it and might spiral out of control.

 

I am a little uneasy at the idea of designing a layout which is so directly coupled to room geometry - the lift out section is far away from being straight forward with a pseudo 90 degree corner, offset  joints, etc.

 

Along those lines and for the sake of argument I have drawn up how an 'exhibition' version of the Minories-to-Micro layout might look, with the 90 degree curve running in the opposite direction - operators inside, viewers outside. It's slightly wider at 12' but less tall at a shade over 10', with a minimum radius of 26" along the inside FY line:

 

 

 

 

[Chimer]

I know you said rehanging the door is not an option, but does it need to shut regularly?  Assuming ducking under is a reasonable ask (?), if the default position for the door was fully open against the side wall, the removable curved section could sit in front of it and might not have to be removed very often ........

[Lacathedrale]

@Chimer I re-measured the door and (as per most standard house doors) it has a 2'6" width. It opens to 5" at the narrowest section away from the doorframe, and 9" at the hinge. As an office this door rarely needs to be closed, once or twice per week.

 

 

I am fully onboard with both boards as good designs and in isolation they work perfectly, but we are really hunting for inches here in 10' x 11' - if something is just slightly out, then it all falls down - and that's only determined at the point the two boards are set up with the lift-out section in place.

 

Hmm.

 

I do wonder if I can broach the subject of housing the layout in the spare room, on the proviso that it's fully deconstructable and stored in my office when the room is being used for "anything" else.

 

 

There are two options here - a linear space of 13' along that wall and butting up against the mirror, or an L shape slightly smaller than my office (11' x 9') but where the curved board doesn't need to wedge into a gap between the door/s and could be fully featured.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Lacathedrale

[Zomboid]

52 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

 

I do wonder if I can broach the subject of housing the layout in the spare room, on the proviso that it's fully deconstructable and stored in my office when the room is being used for "anything" else

I suppose the question is how much down time is that likely to mean? And will the layout be significantly less compromised as a result?

 

The more faff at the start and end of a session the less you'll use it, so a more compromised layout that you can just turn on and go is going to give you more satisfaction than something "better" that you have to spend an hour setting up and breaking down.

[Lacathedrale]

@Zomboid I think that's a key consideration. In this case though, it is less about getting a better layout and more about having a robust one. Point taken, though!

 

Either way, the micro-terminus variant does not fit into the spare bedroom, but a comfortable Minories to Traverser does:

 

 

This actually retrofits back into the office, albeit with the traverser blocking the door:

 

 

A rather more slimline variant fits into the spare room too, with just the station and traverser:

 

 

This doesn't fit at all into the office. As a whole it is least favourite variant: all moves will need to go onto the traverser to complete, even plain shunts - and experience with Godstone Road showed that to be quite a pain!

 

I have considered just starting to build the standard terminus station boards as described in the preceding diagrams - essentially unchanged in their 8' x 18" form, to slot into whatever fiddle yard arrangement works - but without a clear idea of how the rest of the layout is going to manifest I'm fearful it will end up another white elephant...

 

Brainstorming space - now I'm thinking about my built-in garage. While now hosting my old car (soon to be sold), and a few low storage spaces - it does have the benefit of being rather more commodious with lighting and power and no bloody doorways! It can eat up Minories for breakfast but at that point, is it the right plan for the space?' Included for completeness, both traverser and junction shown - as well as the stretching of the two stations:

 

 

[Regularity]

7 hours ago, 2E Sub Shed said:

 

 

Northampton Town aka the "Cobblers" were Southern League champions in  1908-09 season. Lost the charity shield match to Newcastle that year.

 

The Cobblers also hold the record for fastest rise from old Div 4 to Div 1 & back to Div 4 in the 1960's. 

 

 

As Jimmy Greaves said, the football miracle of 1966 was not England winning the World Cup, but that Northampton Town were playing in the first division.

 

They were relegated with a then record highest points tally for a relegated team: they took the first quarter of the season to find their feet, or so I am told by my father as I was only a year old at the time!

[Nearholmer]

A note of thanks to Cobblers fans: thank you for helping push my car when it got stuck in frozen mud after an FA cup replay against MK Dons some years back. I can’t remember who won, only that is a was bl@@dy freezing night, and that without your help my son would never have got home to bed in time for school the next day.

[Regularity]

Back to recent on-post topics, does it have to be a station in front of the fiddle yard? It could be a small and simple goods yard, with maybe perishable goods (“grand vitesse”?) vans handling traffic for time-critical markets at the station in the “early hours” of the morning. These vans are tripped to a spare siding (along the back, in front of a retaining wall cutting off direct view of the fiddle yard) in the goods yard for return during the day behind the engine which brought them in, after they have been unloaded for disposal. The loco moves to another siding or a headshunt and has a brew/breakfast. After the morning rush,  the yard pilot trips in light engine, or maybe with some household coal, backs into the yard and places its brakevan on the perishable traffic vans, places its incoming load out of the way, then collects brakevan+perishable vehicles and heads back to the station, followed by the engine which brought in the perishable traffic, which connects to the vans+brake and heads out. The pilot returns to the yard, sorts outbound wagons onto the “spare” road, then another freight arrives in the station, and backs into the yard, etc.

You don’t need a run-round loop for this, but at the minimum it will be a three road yard, with road access to two of the roads, but if there were space for another road or two (one for sorting/incoming wagons, any extra for more goods) then it would look suitably busy and not out of place.

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said:

This actually retrofits back into the office, albeit with the traverser blocking the door:

 

 

Wouldn't that one fit better flipped diagonally, so with the station on the left wall and the traverser on the top wall?

[Pacific231G]

23 hours ago, Regularity said:

Make the second station look like a through station, with lines appearing to go under a bridge, but operate it as a terminus.

 

That's pretty much how John Charman worked Charford in its first extension. Whitchurch Halt, where there was also a kickback private siding to a mineral depot with a run round, was in fron of the fiddle yard and supposedly on a GWR line from Charford to Bridport. All that used the line were short mineral trains to and from the depot and an auto-train which in reality stopped at Whichurch and was only imagined to go on under the bridge to Bridport. Both were operated by the same GWR 0-6-0PT but, in the end, he closed the line beyond Whitchurch and transferred what remained to the SR who just operated short mineral trains. I think it really was there just to hide the fiddle yard.   

I think what seemed odd to me about the earlier arrangement was a main terminus with has no goods facilities but directly serving a twig that does. I suppose we can imagine the main good facilities (and MPD) being up the line from the main terminus and Harelquin's latest iteration with an extra road alongside that serving platform 3  does seem more credible. I think you'd still be having to use the third platform for departing goods trains but that's probably getawable with. 

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

@Chimer I re-measured the door and (as per most standard house doors) it has a 2'6" width. It opens to 5" at the narrowest section away from the doorframe, and 9" at the hinge. As an office this door rarely needs to be closed, once or twice per week.

 

 

I am fully onboard with both boards as good designs and in isolation they work perfectly, but we are really hunting for inches here in 10' x 11' - if something is just slightly out, then it all falls down - and that's only determined at the point the two boards are set up with the lift-out section in place.

 

Hmm.

 

I do wonder if I can broach the subject of housing the layout in the spare room, on the proviso that it's fully deconstructable and stored in my office when the room is being used for "anything" else.

 

 

There are two options here - a linear space of 13' along that wall and butting up against the mirror, or an L shape slightly smaller than my office (11' x 9') but where the curved board doesn't need to wedge into a gap between the door/s and could be fully featured.

The biggest PITA will be removing all the stock every time you have to "deconstruct" the layout.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

14 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

@Chimer I re-measured the door and (as per most standard house doors) it has a 2'6" width. It opens to 5" at the narrowest section away from the doorframe, and 9" at the hinge. As an office this door rarely needs to be closed, once or twice per week.

 

 

I am fully onboard with both boards as good designs and in isolation they work perfectly, but we are really hunting for inches here in 10' x 11' - if something is just slightly out, then it all falls down - and that's only determined at the point the two boards are set up with the lift-out section in place.

 

Hmm.

 

I do wonder if I can broach the subject of housing the layout in the spare room, on the proviso that it's fully deconstructable and stored in my office when the room is being used for "anything" else.

 

 

There are two options here - a linear space of 13' along that wall and butting up against the mirror, or an L shape slightly smaller than my office (11' x 9') but where the curved board doesn't need to wedge into a gap between the door/s and could be fully featured.

 

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

The biggest PITA will be removing all the stock every time you have to "deconstruct" the layout.

This is precisely why I moved from Standard Gauge to Narrow Gauge modelling for my current projects - when I have to clear the spare (attic) room I can use, everything from baseboards upwards has to exit via a steep dogleg staircase.  The moment when it dawned on me that I also had to allow for the logistics of shifting all the stock boxes and buildings* was the moment when I switched from HO to HOe - the scale is the same, but the trains (and hence the stock box) and the buildings are smaller,  so the task much less onerous.  I could also cut down the number of baseboards I need but get in more layout.

 

I’m not suggesting anyone else needs to take that route (I’d briefly dabbled in NG previously so it was a positive move for me in other ways too), but I agree with the Saint that there’s more to consider with this type of domestic arrangement than the track plan.

_____________________
 

*the layout I was designing at the time was for American HO, with tall grain elevators and large low relief warehouses.

[TJ52]

Bite the bullet, get out into the garage. Modern cars don't need them, lay some carpet tiles and some heating and thunderbirds are go!

 

Terry

[t-b-g]

I think it is almost impossible to plan a layout design for something that will actually turn into a layout until you know what space you have available and what sort of layout you actually want. Portable or fixed? Exhibition or just for home use? Single or multiple stations and operators? Period? Train length? Region? Goods, passenger or both?

 

A few of those don't seem to have been established yet. Doodling layout plans which may or may never get built is an enjoyable way to spend some time anyway and I do it regularly but unless you know where you are going, it is hard to set off in a particular direction.

 

It seems to me that we presently have a layout that might end up U or L shaped, may be one of three different sizes and locations, may have one or two stations maybe with or without a fiddle yard.

 

There have been a few decent designs presented, several of which would work nicely as a layout. As I see it, there are some decisions that need to be made as to which one to go for.

[Harlequin]

@Lacathedrale William,

 

You need to make some decisions, commit to an idea and get something built!

 

Any layout in any scale, whether fixed or movable, needs as much space as it can get. What room gives you the most space and would allow to get started quickly? That's the room to use.

 

Don't get fixated on the plan. What era/style/region do really want to model? That's the thing to consider first - your heart has to be in it. Then make a plan and choose a scale to bring that idea to life as easily as possible. (That plan might not have anything to do with Minories!)

 

Does that help?

 

Edit: @t-b-g and I cross-posted. We both noticed the same issue!...

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Harlequin

[Zomboid]

On the other hand, layout planning is a hobby in itself...

[john new]

8 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

The biggest PITA will be removing all the stock every time you have to "deconstruct" the layout.

As one who currently uses a spare bedroom, a very BIG PITA when visitors come to stay not helped by the design of the modern ice cube stock boxes (if you choose to keep them). The family visitors are welcome it is the dismantle/rebuild that is the PITA. Alternatives are being assessed, but a decent large insulated hobby shed is expensive and would reduce the garden area.  The alternative of converting the existing garage to a useable standard, with adequate  power, heat, ventilation etc, also not cheap.
 

The other very big issue for spare room layouts is having somewhere to put the dismantled layout and stock when the room is needed as the bedroom space for sleeping in.

Edited November 28, 2021 by john new

[simon b]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

On the other hand, layout planning is a hobby in itself...

Couldn't agree more with that, I've planned hundreds but only built a few.

[Harlequin]

7 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

On the other hand, layout planning is a hobby in itself...

 

3 minutes ago, simon b said:

Couldn't agree more with that, I've planned hundreds but only built a few.

 

This is true, of course, but William said earlier he wanted to get something done.

 

[fezza]

I've come to the conclusion that if you really want a good operational model railway you need a dedicated room. That often means a loft conversion, garage conversion or extension. Yes, it's expensive but the way house prices are going in the UK, you'll probably get most of the money back eventually when you come to sell...

 

Minories is a great concept but you still need a large fiddle yard if it is not going to get old quickly - which means a lot more space than Freezer really anticipated if it is to be the basis for a long term layout. Remember the whole thing was meant as a quick project for a student bedsit in the days when most people had far less stock than they do today. Its strength was it could be incorporated into a larger layout in the long term.

[Lacathedrale]

I do have some criteria laid out! But I feel this should probably be in a separate thread as I am aware that I'm polluting the 'general theory of Minories' with my own mused layout plans yet again...

 

On reflection a layout where the fiddle yard and all stock must be removed is much more of a pain than a single section which contains just a few plain curves, and a layout that must be fully dismantled a dozen times a year is probably not one which will last very long in a home setting.  It looks like the garage it may be?!

 

To bring it to a more generic 'Minories'-themed discussion rather than my particulars - it would seem that the perfect fiddle yard for a Minories is:

• With a least four roads
• With all roads accessed by both up and down lines
• With a usable length equal to one train length + additional loco (for @t-b-g's turnaround fix)
• Ideally with a separate headshunt for the station, if no such length is provided by the visible layout
• If no separate headshunt, then pointwork if possible to diverge the FY lines

 

[Zomboid]

Personally I'm with CJF, a return loop is the perfect "rest of the world". Have a couple of roads for overtaking so you can vary the sequence and there's basically no need to ever do any fiddling.

 

Of course that takes up quite a lot of space, but it's still the ideal as far as I'm concerned.

[St Enodoc]

7 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Personally I'm with CJF, a return loop is the perfect "rest of the world". Have a couple of roads for overtaking so you can vary the sequence and there's basically no need to ever do any fiddling.

 

Of course that takes up quite a lot of space, but it's still the ideal as far as I'm concerned.

And you can double the number of trains by giving them different numbers and colours on each side.