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Hi David,

 

Although I don't comment very often I've been following your Haymarket topic with great interest.

 

You've done a great job on the shed itself, and now ~ that coaling tower! . . . Superb!

 

I expect that you've seen every photo that exists of that tower (and shed, and turntable, and . . . and everything Haymarket!).

I've taken the liberty of placing your tower alongside a pic of the Haymarket tower in the photo below.  The base area of the original tower is obscured by a couple of locos but most of it is visible.

(At least I hope it appears below as I haven't posted a pic on this forum before ???)

 

Jim.

 

post-17684-0-43789800-1424278167.jpg

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Jim If i'd not seen the original pic I'd be none the wiser, but I spect by the time David's got his weathering powders out you;d be hard-pressed to tell the difference.

 

While this is in no way even close to what either of you are doing this shot from Waverley East in a very early stage shows just how effective these buildings can be at adding atmosphere,even when they are straight to of the box.

 

post-10395-0-11151100-1424278853.jpg

 

Of course they won't be quite the same when the shed is rebuilt!

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Hi David,

 

Although I don't comment very often I've been following your Haymarket topic with great interest.

 

You've done a great job on the shed itself, and now ~ that coaling tower! . . . Superb!

 

I expect that you've seen every photo that exists of that tower (and shed, and turntable, and . . . and everything Haymarket!).

I've taken the liberty of placing your tower alongside a pic of the Haymarket tower in the photo below.  The base area of the original tower is obscured by a couple of locos but most of it is visible.

(At least I hope it appears below as I haven't posted a pic on this forum before ???)

 

Jim.

Hi Jim

 

Many thanks for that, that's the best photo of the coaling tower I have seen so far.

 

Regards

 

David

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Jim If i'd not seen the original pic I'd be none the wiser, but I spect by the time David's got his weathering powders out you;d be hard-pressed to tell the difference.

 

While this is in no way even close to what either of you are doing this shot from Waverley East in a very early stage shows just how effective these buildings can be at adding atmosphere,even when they are straight to of the box.

 

attachicon.gifIMG_0679.jpg

 

Of course they won't be quite the same when the shed is rebuilt!

Hi Peter

 

That looks very impressive indeed, I had to look twice to see it was a model layout.

 

Look forward to seeing more

 

Regards

 

David

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Peter ~ I felt like I was standing down at track level in that photo above!

 

David ~ I'm trying to decide if your statement "that's the best photo of the coaling tower I have seen so far" means that you hadn't seen it before I posted it ???

(Enquiring mind has to know ! )

 

Regards,

 

Jim. 

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Peter ~ I felt like I was standing down at track level in that photo above!

 

David ~ I'm trying to decide if your statement "that's the best photo of the coaling tower I have seen so far" means that you hadn't seen it before I posted it ???

(Enquiring mind has to know ! )

 

Regards,

 

Jim. 

Hi Jim

 

You are quite correct I have not seen that photo before, nor have I see a photo of Haymarket's coaling tower showing so much of it and that includes both of Harry Knox's Haymarket books as well.

 

Thanks again for posting it.

 

Regards

 

David

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Thanks Jim, that's what I'm trying to achieve - so the pic looks realistic from ground level.

 

As I think Andy Y pointed out in a recent issue of BRM, most model railway viewing is from a scale helicopter height, so setting the iPhone right down to track level takes pics at a scale 15' off the ground - effectively  from the top of the boiler 

 

You really have to watch the spillchocker on this app - when I typed 'recent issue' first time, I missed the space bar, and it auto corrected it to 'erectness'!

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Thank you from me also for the "new" coaling tower picture.  That's much the best picture of the beam which I have seen.  It also gives some indication,  by the illuminated sloping strut at the edge,  of what its mechanism might be.  Given that,  in this particular version of a coaling tower,  the beam seems to recover forward beyond the vertical,  I remain slightly puzzled as to how the recovery/counterbalance mechanism for it might be configured.

 

I'm also puzzled as to what the precise function might be of the triangular outward projection from the guide rails of the hoist mechanism:  it presumably has something to do with the tippler action,  since it is close to that end of the business?

 

There are some good photographs around of the process of demolition of the near-identical Kittybrewster tower.  But all those which I have seen are taken from the jiggler/stairways side of the building.  It looks as if the tippler side was reduced earlier in the process,  so that any picture from that side might reveal details of the internal arrangement of beam mechanism,  movable baffle,  and/or hopper construction.....

 

 

auldreekie

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attachicon.gifpost-17684-0-43789800-1424278167.jpg There's ma beam!!

 

Great pic

Hi LNER4479

 

Thanks for the photo, as auldreekie has already said and I agree I am totally puzzled on how the system works and trying to recreate it in 4mm scale is not easy.

 

I assume that the beam must pivot somehow and fits over the top of the coal wagons so it can lift and tilt the wagon to empty its contence.

 

Thanks against for your help.

 

Regards

 

David

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David,

 

See posts 267,  269 and 271 above.  And it's worth seeking out the diagram at page 20 in E.S. Beavor "Steam Motive Power Depots."  Although that is not self-explanatory,  in conjunction with the above posts it makes the principle clear. 

 

It's the detail of the implementation at Haymarket and Kittybrewster which continues to puzzle me a bit.  It looks,  especially from the "new" picture,  as if the wagon-restraining beam in this instance forms part of a set of "goalposts",  pivoted somewhere about the centre of one of the back to front crossbeams visible in the side elevations of the structure,  probably the one at the top of the lowest recessed panel.  If that is so,  and if,  as appears in one or two photographs,  the  wagon-restraining beam's position of repose is leaning significantly forward,  then it's not entirely apparent how the counterbalancing mechanism for that beam would be arranged.

 

This probably doesn't matter much,  if at all,  for the purposes of a static model.  But I DO like to know what I'm representing -- even if the representation ends up pretty crude.......

 

Incidentally,  the "new" photograph is also helpful in clarifying one or two other aspects of the structure which it took me a long time and quite a lot of effort to puzzle out from previous material,  notably the slight slope on the upper sides of the structure,  beneath the machine room.  This,  together with the constant thickness of the main vertical members on the "hoist" face of the structure (such that in indistinct photographs they cast very unexpected shadows on the tapering sides) was not at all easy to fathom out.

 

Again,  my apologies for the irruption into your super thread.  It has quite grabbed my attention -- I hope it has not derailed your efforts!

 

 

auldreekie

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David,

 

See posts 267,  269 and 271 above.  And it's worth seeking out the diagram at page 20 in E.S. Beavor "Steam Motive Power Depots."  Although that is not self-explanatory,  in conjunction with the above posts it makes the principle clear. 

 

It's the detail of the implementation at Haymarket and Kittybrewster which continues to puzzle me a bit.  It looks,  especially from the "new" picture,  as if the wagon-restraining beam in this instance forms part of a set of "goalposts",  pivoted somewhere about the centre of one of the back to front crossbeams visible in the side elevations of the structure,  probably the one at the top of the lowest recessed panel.  If that is so,  and if,  as appears in one or two photographs,  the  wagon-restraining beam's position of repose is leaning significantly forward,  then it's not entirely apparent how the counterbalancing mechanism for that beam would be arranged.

 

This probably doesn't matter much,  if at all,  for the purposes of a static model.  But I DO like to know what I'm representing -- even if the representation ends up pretty crude.......

 

Incidentally,  the "new" photograph is also helpful in clarifying one or two other aspects of the structure which it took me a long time and quite a lot of effort to puzzle out from previous material,  notably the slight slope on the upper sides of the structure,  beneath the machine room.  This,  together with the constant thickness of the main vertical members on the "hoist" face of the structure (such that in indistinct photographs they cast very unexpected shadows on the tapering sides) was not at all easy to fathom out.

 

Again,  my apologies for the irruption into your super thread.  It has quite grabbed my attention -- I hope it has not derailed your efforts!

 

 

auldreekie

Hi auldreekie

 

I regard any input you make into this thread a great help, the more I go into the workings and details of a coal tower the more I am starting to wish I had left the Bachmann tower as it was but it just would not look right.

 

This morning I drilled and position then glued 1mm nickel wire and brass hand rails knobs together which will go down each side of the tower as a framework to support the counter balance weights, talk about frustrating its a miracle that the tower is still in one piece at one point I felt like throwing it across the room, a deep breath then a coffee break did the trick.

 

Once I have spray painted them I will then glue them to the tower sides and put some updated photos on.

 

Thanks again for your input and help, that also includes LNER4479 & Holyrood 60152(Jim) who like you have also been very helpful with this project.

 

Regards

 

David

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Well.

 

I've spent a fair proportion of this afternoon photocopying my drawing,  correcting one or two minor errors in the photocopy (mainly the position of the jigger under one of the hoppers),  and puzzling over one or two unresolved aspects.   The position of the door high on the "jigger" side of the building  (not the upper one,  which is clearly the entry to the machine room) was ever a mystery to me.  Now I think it is the entry to the platform from which the flap-door was operated  directing coal to hopper of choice.  But I'm still slightly at a loss,  as the wagon-restraining beam would (if my other suppositions are correct) be at just about the operator's head height at its limit of travel.  

 

Perhaps the likeliest explanation here is that I have scaled the vertical dimension in the upper part of the drawing slightly too small,  not allowing enough for parallax due to any nearby photographer's ground level position:  a minor correction might give adequate clearance,  and would also give a doorway of a more likely height.  So,  back to the drawing board tomorrow....

 

Having re-engaged with this,  it is increasingly likely that I shall take a shot at building a static representation from scratch in styrene sheet.   The main external structure could be broken down into a few large components in 80 thou sheet or,  in some instances,  in 60 thou sheet with a 20 thou overlay to represent the visible framework.  A rough representation of the innards would lend support to the externals,  resisting any tendency for the sides to bow,  and I think it would suffice to satisfy the casual onlooker moved to look into the void on the tippler face of the building.

 

Hmmmm....  I hadn't planned to spend time on this right now,  but it might be the kick needed to restart long-deferred work on "Haymarket"....... 

 

 

auldreekie

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Good Afternoon

 

A bit more progress on the Haymarket coaling tower, this has been far more frustrating to create and build than the main shed which was scratch built, but slowly I am making progress to transform it

 

A few photos are enclosed below which now show the counter balance framework to both sides in place, I have painted all the white plastic card to hopefully blend in with the original grey colour and have attempted to create the lifting beam which held the coal wagons in place when they were emptied.

 

To be honest I have no idea what this mechanism actually looked like and how it went together or works, so this is just to create a visual effect and to fill the large open area left when i removed smoke hood.

 

Regards

 

David

post-6557-0-48238700-1424790750_thumb.jpg

post-6557-0-52335900-1424790778_thumb.jpg

post-6557-0-60569700-1424790802_thumb.jpg

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Looks pretty good to me.....

 

As a matter of possible marginal interest,  the first steps towards a scratch-built version:

 

DSCF0261_zpshf3m9qfr.jpg

 

This build will proceed fairly slowly.

 

Ignore the narrow-gauge locomotive top right.

 

 

auldreekie

Edited by auldreekie
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Looks pretty good to me.....

 

As a matter of possible marginal interest,  the first steps towards a scratch-built version:

 

DSCF0261_zpshf3m9qfr.jpg

 

This build will proceed fairly slowly.

 

Ignore the narrow-gauge locomotive top right.

 

 

auldreekie

Wow that looks very impressive indeed.

 

I look forward to seeing how it works out, who knows I may decide to have a go at a scratch build coaling tower myself in the future, but still have lots of other buildings to complete before that so the Bachmann coaling tower will have to do for now.

 

What thickness plasticard are you using?

 

Regards

 

David

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Good Afternoon

 

A bit more progress on the Haymarket coaling tower, this has been far more frustrating to create and build than the main shed which was scratch built, but slowly I am making progress to transform it

 

A few photos are enclosed below which now show the counter balance framework to both sides in place, I have painted all the white plastic card to hopefully blend in with the original grey colour and have attempted to create the lifting beam which held the coal wagons in place when they were emptied.

 

To be honest I have no idea what this mechanism actually looked like and how it went together or works, so this is just to create a visual effect and to fill the large open area left when i removed smoke hood.

 

Regards

 

David

Looks great - certainly better to fill the void.

 

Apologies, I meant to post something over the weekend re the mechanism. Below is a VERY CRUDE diagram which explains the (simple) principle of the (possible) operation of the beam. (hedging my bets, or what?!)

 

post-16151-0-74451000-1424806158_thumb.jpg

What you can't see from the prototype picture is that there could have been a counter-balancing arrangement coming down from the pivot as the bottom half of the 'goal post' arrangement which would allow the beam to tip forward with the wagon and still hold it in place and allow it to return when the process was reversed. This would of course swing out from the top of the tower as the wagon was in the tipped position.

 

Hope that helps (or at least points you in the right direction). Personally, I wouldn't bother trying to represent that, David, as it wouldn't really be seen in the normal 'at rest' position. What you've done looks fine to me.

(*edit to add that the vertically upwards arrow show really be ABOVE the counterbalance arm as this is a reactionary movement. The driving 'force' is the loaded wagon being tipped against the beam)

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Looks great - certainly better to fill the void.

 

Apologies, I meant to post something over the weekend re the mechanism. Below is a VERY CRUDE diagram which explains the (simple) principle of the (possible) operation of the beam. (hedging my bets, or what?!)

 

attachicon.gifcoaling plant.jpg

What you can't see from the prototype picture is that there could have been a counter-balancing arrangement coming down from the pivot as the bottom half of the 'goal post' arrangement which would allow the beam to tip forward with the wagon and still hold it in place and allow it to return when the process was reversed. This would of course swing out from the top of the tower as the wagon was in the tipped position.

 

Hope that helps (or at least points you in the right direction). Personally, I wouldn't bother trying to represent that, David, as it wouldn't really be seen in the normal 'at rest' position. What you've done looks fine to me.

(*edit to add that the vertically upwards arrow show really be ABOVE the counterbalance arm as this is a reactionary movement. The driving 'force' is the loaded wagon being tipped against the beam)

Hi LNER4479

 

Many thanks for the diagram and explanation on how it may work.

 

Also I appreciate your kind comments as well.

 

Regards

 

David

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David,

 

Thanks for your appreciation.

 

I don't wish to hijack your thread.  But this seems a better place to post for a degree of comparison than to run my build separately.

 

Styrene thickness is 80 thou for flat sections,  60 thou with 20 thou overlay for panelled sections.  Cutting the thicker bits is quite hard on the hands and it is slow work.  Other than for the control room and winching-head structure on top,  there   will be three main sections for each side, as well as for the jigger-side face and for the tippler-side face.  I aim to provide some degree of internal bracing,  to combat any tendency to warp,  by fabricating a rough representation of the internal hopper system.   I reckon that the machine-room etc structure could be made out of 40 thou with a 20 thou overlay,  as it needs less rigidity and resistance to warping:  that would save wear-and-tear on the poor old hands.....

 

Getting to close grips with actual fabrication,  even at this stage,  has caused me to revise my drawing,  mainly to overlay my guesswork at the internal hoppers,  but also slightly to correct the slope of the main section of the tippler face,  and to re-site laterally one of the jiggers by a small amount.

 

I have no intention to make the model functional,  although (with ingenuity much greater than mine) it would,   I think,  be possible to do so on lines similar to those indicated by LNER4479.  I have one slight (and ill-informed) caveat:  the one (poor and distant) photograph which I have seen of the tippler actually tipping a wagon does not show any counterweight projecting at front nor any provision to do so,  although this explanation may partially account for the outward slope of the main panel on the tippler-face of the structure.  There could,  of course,  be some system of wires,  pulleys and dangling counterweights hung off a similarly-cranked bottom half of the "goalposts",  which could have a similar effect with less drastic "swinging" effects on the structure.......

 

 

auldreekie

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Hi auldreekie

 

Pis there any chance your drawing gives an overall height dimension for Haymarket's coaling tower.

 

Scaling it of photos I have it looks to be about three time the height of the main engine shed building but that is all a I have to go on.

 

Regards

 

David

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All I have done is scaled from photographs.  I have done it several times from different sources.  But all were taken from somewhere near ground level,  so that there may be some parallax-induced slight tendency to underestimate vertical dimensions towards the top of the building.    As some degree of check on this,  I have long hoped to find  (a) shot(s) taken of the near-identical Kittybrewster plant from a level high up in the tenements opposite its "tippler" face.  But so far no luck.

 

My drawing comes out at 332 mm high x 140 mm along the base parallel with the railway tracks (180mm over the headgear) x 79 mm deep across the base (not the legs) of the raised concrete structure (140 mm over the full depth from point at which the tippler rails enter the ground to furthest overhang of the jiggers).  It's so long since I drew it up that I really cannot remember how specifically I arrived at these dimensions,  but I think it likely that a large part was played by the picture of the Kittytbrewster installation forming Plate 30 in John Hooper :"LNER Sheds in Camera" (Oxford Publishing Co, 1984),  and a long process of amendment,  successive approximation and checking with views from all available angles.  There seems to be an awful dearth of decent photographs of the tippler side of either installation.

 

I think it would not help to try to force your approximation based on the Bachmann model into those overall dimensions,  since as unamended it has a somewhat different configuration over the track,  and since you have added a representation of the Haymarket headgear/ machine room over the top of the Bachmann one.

 

I make no claim for the precision of these figures as a representation of the real world,  but I'm reasonably confident in the overall proportions (with the caveat made above).  If you should be privy to,  or should come across,  any such dimensions based on design parameters or survey on the ground,  I'd be very grateful if you'd share them.

 

Meanwhile,  the process of styrene cutting and fabrication plods on.  Slowly.  I now have estimated sizes and shapes for the key bits of the guesswork innards,  but they still have to be assembled and fettled......

 

 

 

auldreekie 

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Hi auldreekie

 

Many thanks for the reply and explanation as well.

 

you have gone into considerable detail, but if you are saying that your overall hight is 332mm at 4mm scale that would make the tower approx 83'-0" high in old terms.

 

I would have thought that the tower was higher than that but I may be wrong.

 

Measuring the main shed building that is counting the brick courses  from numerous photos that came out at about 124mm from ground level to the roof ridge in 4mm scale which would make the building about 31'-0" high overall.

 

I then scaled the coaling tower hight against the shed building hight and it scaled out about three times the overall hight which would be approx 372mm again in 4mm scale which would give an overall height of around 93'-0.

 

Given the height of the existing Bachmann tower and adding on the machine room over my model now comes out at 380mm high thus being 95'-0" high full size.

 

obviously this is all hear say but it does look about right to me as the existing coaling tower at Haymarket was a huge structure that dominated the skyline in those days.

 

You have been very helpful to me in supplying information so maybe I can help you a little in building your own version of the coaling tower, I have just found a very good photo of the tower which was in an article on Haymarket Shed in 1961 in  "The British Railways Illustrated Magazine" which was published last year.

 

The scanned photo also indicates a building, the one behind the two gentlemen in the photo that I did not know it existed so that's been very helpfull.

 

I hope this is of interest  to you.

 

Regards

 

David

post-6557-0-51595000-1425025412_thumb.jpg

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That IS a very good picture,  not only of the coaling plant,  but also of the water tank.  I too had no idea about that foreground building,  although perhaps photographs taken from beyond the western edge of the main shed may reveal something of it - I'd have tended to ignore this whilst concentrating on the coal plant.

 

Nor had I noticed the brackets protruding from above both south-facing windows of the headgear.

 

I'd guess that the actual height probably lies between  "my" 83 feet and "your" 93 feet.  Either would amount to a pretty domineering sight.  I just MIGHT stretch the vertical component of the dimensions a little in the upper reaches, but I'm inclined to the view that,  if it looks right,  it will do......

 

One small thing.  I'm mystified by the small rectangular hole in the west side of the tower,  with what appears to be an electrical or mechanical wire connection running downward from it...

 

 

auldreekie 

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That IS a very good picture,  not only of the coaling plant,  but also of the water tank.  I too had no idea about that foreground building,  although perhaps photographs taken from beyond the western edge of the main shed may reveal something of it - I'd have tended to ignore this whilst concentrating on the coal plant.

 

Nor had I noticed the brackets protruding from above both south-facing windows of the headgear.

 

I'd guess that the actual height probably lies between  "my" 83 feet and "your" 93 feet.  Either would amount to a pretty domineering sight.  I just MIGHT stretch the vertical component of the dimensions a little in the upper reaches, but I'm inclined to the view that,  if it looks right,  it will do......

 

One small thing.  I'm mystified by the small rectangular hole in the west side of the tower,  with what appears to be an electrical or mechanical wire connection running downward from it...

 

 

auldreekie

 

Hi

 

You know they say great minds think alike, I was also wondered about that hole as well and if I could include it in the model.

 

But as the Bachmann tower is made of resin and it would be a small deatail too far in my opinion and not worth the problems it could cause.

 

Glad the photo has been usefull to you.

 

Just working on the two concrete weights to each side of the tower at the moment.

 

Regards

 

David

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