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1st edition Super Saloons on Ocean Liner Specials


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Hi there

 

I am building a couple of the Super Saloons at the moment and deciding on what other coaches I need to acquire in order to recreate a typical Ocean Liner special. I could do with your input on a couple of questions.

 

1stly I am mulling over adding a K38 Ocean Mails van along with a couple of extra normal K38s. would this be realistic?

 

2ndly I am modelling the 1929 to 1933 period so the Super Saloons at this time did not have kitchen cars. Does anybody know what kitchen they may have added? I am struggling to find any reasonable option that was built after 1908.

 

Many thanks for any input.

 

PS I am also building a Torquay (or should that be Torbay?) Pullman from 1929. I have the new Pullman books on order but would love to know if anybody knows what the names and/or numbers were of the 8 carrigaes the GWR owned.

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There were effectively no 'normal' K38s. There were only six of them and all but one had Ocean Mails branding.

See http://www.rmweb.co....brake-liveries/

I'm not sure that they would run with an ocean liner special.

 

I'd suggest that a couple of toplight brake vans might be appropriate (http://www.dartcasti...ogmore/3955.php or http://www.dartcasti...ogmore/3954.php are possibilities)

 

For a kitchen, they probably would have used an available dining car, possibly a Dreadnought or one of the 70' toplight cars, although the instructions with the Comet kits suggest just 3 or 5 Super Saloons and 2 passenger brake vans for the formation.

If you want to add a dining car, an H15 might be a possibility (Comet W2).

 

Note that the Fishgaurd boat train formation (toplights) didn't have a restaurant as far as I recall, it was a 70' brake first (A11), a number of 70' firsts (A10), and a 70' stowage van.

 

For the Torquay Pullman, see http://www.precision...ls.com/l20.html, although the photos in Russell show a much less homogeneous formation than is implied by this information. From the Precision Labels list, the cars included Eunice, Juana, Zena, Ione, Joan, Loraine, and Evadne (this matches the link industrial provided).

 

Adrian

Edited by Adrian Wintle
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There were effectively no 'normal' K38s. There were only six of them and all but one had Ocean Mails branding.

 

For a kitchen, they probably would have used an available dining car, possibly a Dreadnought or one of the 70' toplight cars, although the instructions with the Comet kits suggest just 3 or 5 Super Saloons and 2 passenger brake vans for the formation.

 

If you want to add a dining car, an H15 might be a possibility (Comet W2).

 

Note that the Fishgaurd boat train formation (toplights) didn't have a restaurant as far as I recall, it was a 70' brake first (A11), a number of 70' firsts (A10), and a 70' stowage van.

 

For the Torquay Pullman, see http://www.precision...ls.com/l20.html, although the photos in Russell show a much less homogeneous formation than is implied by this information. From the Precision Labels list, the cars included Eunice, Juana, Zena, Ione, Joan, Loraine, and Evadne (this matches the link industrial provided).

 

Adrian

 

Hi Adrian

 

Many thanks for the links.

 

I thought only 3 of the 6 K38s had OM lettering but may well have mis-remembered from reading my Russel books. From all of the research I have done so far, the OMs were included when needed so it stands to logic (or at least my logic) that if a liner with 1st class passengers arrived to be whisked away in their Super Saloons, it is not inconceivable the fast-mail would have been attached too. I guess it is one of those things we will never actually know now.

 

Re the Comet instructions, I believe they relate to post-1934 when 2 of the Supers were converted to have their own kitchens, Princess Royal and Princess Elizabeth if I remember correctly. I think H15 is a good bet although I do remember seeing a 1st/Kitchen/Brake which I believe was H11 (or was this actuall H15, my memory fails me).

 

Thanks for the link Industrial... I lknew I had seen a list like that somwhere. Very useful!

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I'm not sure that the OM traffic necessarily really matched the ocean liner specials. I had thought that some of it was for 'mail drops' at Plymouth when the ocean liner was actually going to Southampton or elsewhere, as it would get the mail to London quicker (4-6 hours maybe?) since an express train could do the run up the channel faster than the ship could.

 

Adrian

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As far as Kitchen facilities for Ocean specials there was a one off 70ft to diagarm H20 that specifically built for these trains. Later on two of the G60/1 super saloons were rebuilt with kitchens to Diagram H44/5, providing the catering facilities. As for mails often marshalledi n the train were the 70ft vehicles with sliding doors (M15 from memory -not at home at the moment). Several shots in the Soole collection books showing G60/1,H44/5 and one or two M15 vans usually at the London end.

 

The Torquay Pullman was covered in both Great Western Journal and the Great Western Study Group 'Pannier' magazines recently with full details of names/sets/ 4or 6 wheel bogies etc. When I get home I'll post the exact issue dates. Note the Pullman cars were also used on Ocean Liner specials in the brief 1929/30 period spent on the Western.The carriages were not actually owned by the GWR but hired from Pullman. This resulted in alterations to formations as the sets when Pullman saw fit, I understand, to the annoyance of the GWR who had pre booked seats to find the coach layout did not always match.

 

 

Edit

 

Just spoken to a friend this morning who has a shot with the H39 Diner first in the formation- Super saloons with later sliding windows H39 as built top openers. The H39 was built to run as a pair with H40 third diner, but the H39 could be found with others when all first stock was required. M15 vans again.

 

Mike Wiltshire

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As far as Kitchen facilities for Ocean specials there was a one off 70ft to diagarm H20 that specifically built for these trains. Later on two of the G60/1 super saloons were rebuilt with kitchens to Diagram H44/5, providing the catering facilities. As for mails often marshalledi n the train were the 70ft vehicles with sliding doors (M15 from memory -not at home at the moment). Several shots in the Soole collection books showing G60/1,H44/5 and one or two M15 vans usually at the London end.

 

The Torquay Pullman was covered in both Great Western Journal and the Great Western Study Group 'Pannier' magazines recently with full details of names/sets/ 4or 6 wheel bogies etc. When I get home I'll post the exact issue dates. Note the Pullman cars were also used on Ocean Liner specials in the brief 1929/30 period spent on the Western.The carriages were not actually owned by the GWR but hired from Pullman. This resulted in alterations to formations as the sets when Pullman saw fit, I understand, to the annoyance of the GWR who had pre booked seats to find the coach layout did not always match.

 

 

Edit

 

Just spoken to a friend this morning who has a shot with the H39 Diner first in the formation- Super saloons with later sliding windows H39 as built top openers. The H39 was built to run as a pair with H40 third diner, but the H39 could be found with others when all first stock was required. M15 vans again.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Hi Mike

 

Thanks for the info. I will have a look for H20 tonight when I get home. Do you know if it was a Kitchen / First or even the Kitchen / First / Brake I mentioned earlier?

 

Re the Great Western Journal feature on the Torquay Pullman, I would be very grateful if you could tell me which issue that is.

 

Also would love to see the photo of the Supers with the H39. Any chance you can link to it or tell us where to find it.

 

Many thanks

 

Noel

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Right, back home now and I can dig out the files.

 

The H20 is a kitchen/buffet brake. Hayes produce a kit still available.

 

http://www.cspmodels.com/4mm_CoachKits.php

 

 

In my opinion the best published shot is in Great Western in the 1930's volume 2 no 240

 

Formation is 6014, M10, H46, G60, H45, H49, H39, E109, C44, D82.

 

The M10 is virtually the same as the M15 (M15 available from David Geen Kits)

 

Train has two rebuilt Super Saloons H45/6 and one original. The twin H39/40 set (available from Westward/Perseverence).

 

My friend has a 20x15 print of the original and the coaches can be seen very clearly. Same shot appears in Modellers Backtrack Dec1992

 

There are other shots but this is the only published one I know that shows the entire train

 

The Great Westernn Journal is issue 64 for the Torquay Pullman. There is a useful online index if you are looking for other information.

 

http://www.gwrjournal.co.uk/

 

Mike Wiltshire

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I do not know the history of the "Welsh" liner traffic and therefore cannot comment on this, but, the Millbay traffic is part of my local history and perhaps require a deeper explanation given some of the thoughts expressed above.

 

Originally the liners called into Plymouth as the journey was shortened by at least a day for both passengers and mail through landing and then onward transport by train. It seems that many do not realise that there were two Ocean Terminals in the Three Towns (Plymouth, Devonport and Stonehouse, this Is before the City was founded), the G W at Millbay and the L&S W R at Stonehouse Pool.

 

The G W had only the mail contract and the L& S W R the passenger traffic with a strict demarcation upheld between the two. In time the G W started to to offer passengers the opportunity to travel on the mail train as an alternative to the Southern journey. You must remember that at this time the L S W train had to pass through both Plymouth and Exeter stations which were controlled, and owned, by the G W at either end of the circuitous route via Okehampton, delays were inevitable due purely to operating pressures.

 

This lead to a free for all situation with speeds on the L S W increasing until the horrific derailment at Salisbury which was the primary cause of their withdrawal from the traffic.

 

Only then did the G W develop the "Ocean Mails Specials" that we all are familiar with and which the the O P is seeking to recreate.

 

It will be obvious from this that the boat trains were mail trains with passenger accommodation rather than passenger trains which carried mail.

 

I hope this helps clear up any misunderstandings.

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Right, back home now and I can dig out the files.

 

The H20 is a kitchen/buffet brake. Hayes produce a kit still available.

 

In my opinion the best published shot is in Great Western in the 1930's volume 2 no 240

 

Formation is 6014, M10, H46, G60, H45, H49, H39, E109, C44, D82.

 

The Great Westernn Journal is issue 64 for the Torquay Pullman. There is a useful online index if you are looking for other information.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Many thanks Mike.

 

I am pretty sure there is a decent photo of H20 in one of the Pictorial Record books by Russell but I my copy is inb storage right now. I shall try to find a scan of the photo somewhere.

 

The formation you give is for a mid 30's train if I am not mistaken. I am primarily interested in the 1929-30 period when the Pullmans ran and the Ocean traffic was at its peak and the old lined livery was still in much evidence. I am really struggling to find info and photos of this period though that show the more exotic mainline traffic.

 

I have ordered issue 64 of the Journal... thanks for the heads up.

 

Only then did the G W develop the "Ocean Mails Specials" that we all are familiar with and which the the O P is seeking to recreate.

 

It will be obvious from this that the boat trains were mail trains with passenger accommodation rather than passenger trains which carried mail.

 

I hope this helps clear up any misunderstandings.

 

Very interesting insight and many thanks. Just to clarify, are you suggesting that an Ocean Mails train would have had one (or even several) Ocean Mails carriages GWR Brakes and then some passenger stock added?

 

Moving onto the Torquay Pullman, my copy of Pullman Profile Vol 3 by Anthony Ford covering the K Class Steel Cars arrived yesterday and contained some intersting info.

 

According to Mr Ford, the GWR was issued with 12 1st class cars and 7 3rd class. All of the 3rd class cars were all from earlier stock that has started its life on the GER/LNER and included the 12-wheel cars #40 and 41 which had been converted to 3rd Brake Parlours in 1924.

 

Here is a quick potted history of the cars as I understand it right now...

 

Cars number 40 and 41 were 12-wheeled coaches that started life on the GER and were converted to Third Brake Parlours in 1924. They were moved to the GWR in 1929 and formed the ends of the Torquay Pullman.

 

Cars number 34,35,59,60 and 61 has similar histories but were not converted.

 

The following 1st class cars were also issued...

 

Arcadia which was a wooden pannel 12 wheel car converted to 1st Brake Parlour in 1924 and was primarily for Ocean traffic

Aurelia which was a wooden car but I cannot remember if it was a 12 wheeler or early K type

Rainbow which was like Aurelia

 

Then came the 1928 built steel K class cars which went straight to the GWR

 

Ione

Zena

Joan

Juana

Eunice

Evadne

Lorraine

Lucille

Ursula

 

He goes on to claim that the "Torquay service included at most two of the new [steel] first-class cars, Ione and Zena, but the emphasis was on third-class accomodation with seven were made available"

 

From this we can gather that the normal 8 coach 1929 Torquay formation was #40 Third Brake followed by Ione, Zena and 4 of the 5 remaining standard 3rd cars followed up again with #41.

 

What stood out to me was how many other 1st class cars there were which by default must have been run in the special Ocean traffic. That is a lot of expensive Pullmans to be hanging around!

 

I am really interested in the possible formations of these trains. It stands to reason that the Mail trains that RAWatson mentions above may well have had a few Pullmans attached but I cannot find any photographic evidence to back this up.

 

What thoughts do you all have regarding the use of Arcadia, Aurelia, Rainbow, Joan, Juana, Eunice, Evadne, Lorraine, Lucille and Ursula?

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I think it is most certain that the Pullmans only worked on the Torbay services and did not take part in the Ocean Mails operations, after all they were hired from the Pullman company for specific train services on scheduled timetables, the Ocean Mails were specials only run to connect with specific sailings.

 

If you refer to the Russell books he illustrates the 12 wheel mail coaches which formed the "goods" portion of the specials.

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I think it is most certain that the Pullmans only worked on the Torbay services and did not take part in the Ocean Mails operations

 

I beg to differ. Great Western Study Group Pannier Magazine no 23 (spring 2008), I mentioned above, includes shots of Pullmans 12 Wheel brake Assonia and K type Lorraine and Penelope plus P type Juana all at Plymouth Millbay. There are also published shots of Ocean specials comprised of Pullman stock.

 

The Pullman period 28-30, were the busiest for Ocean liner traffic with 1928 -238 boat trains, 1929 - 236 boat trains and 1930 - 257 boat trains leaving Millbay docks.with up to five separate trains departing.

 

Mike Wiltshire

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Mike,

 

I stand corrected as I am not a member of the study group and therefore do not have access to their publications I thank you for the correction.

 

The only experience I have of the Super Saloons is that of helping cable two for 240 volt power systems whilst they were static on the early days at Buckfastleigh, not exactly a traffic situation!

 

 

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  • 2 months later...

It will be obvious from this that the boat trains were mail trains with passenger accommodation rather than passenger trains which carried mail.

 

Except that the Super Saloons (the original topic) were built to run as a passenger ocean liner special (and were built specifically to avoid having to pay Pullman for the use of their cars in the same service), which was very definitely not a mail train.

 

In the Ocean Mails service (a different topic), there is photographic evidence of the Ocean Mails K38s running in what appear to be regular passenger trains - presumably they were attached on an as-required basis.

 

Adrian

Edited by Adrian Wintle
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  • 6 years later...

Good grief - cannot believe it was 2012 when I first started this thread!

 

Anyway I have been back in build mode and research mode and I came across a rather interesting segment in one of my books that had something called "The Log of the first Special Train from Plymouth to Paddington with passengers from the "Normandie" June 1935.

 

As can be seen there are 4 of the Ocean Saloons (all pre-modified) with a stowage van leading, a kitchen car, which I assume was from the Riviera stock or maybe a converted single unit from the articulated coaches, and a Brake 1st bringing up the rear. As far as I know, the brake firsts were made for the Fishguard boat trains so would have been 70 footers.

 

I would love to know whether there are any more logs like this out there! 

 

 

IMG_3333.jpeg

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Interesting topic


on a related  note, has anyone seen details of post war Super Saloon workings to Plymouth?

 

I have always found the  Super Saloons a very interesting coach, and one that is somewhere on my to do list.  but I’ve never managed to find any formation data...

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Not post-war but I also have a photo of the streamlined King c1939 which was mentioned above...

 

6014, M10, H46 (rebuilt Saloon with kitchen), G60 (Saloon), H45 (rebuilt Saloon with kitchen), H49, H39, E109, C44, D82.

 

You should definitely look out for Model Rail Journal, especially number 217 and 248 - the Kingstorre layout is set post war and covers some lovely Super Saloons - I remember being quite taken in by a photo with a 70' parcel van, Siphon G, 3 Saloons (the middle one having a kitchen) followed by another Siphon and a K38 or K40. According to the author it was quite prototypical but I do not know if he had hard evidence of that formation.

 

 

 

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  • 8 months later...

Sorry to reliven this old thread but I cannot seem to stop looking more and more into the fascinating (in my mind at least!) special trains put together for all of the Ocean Traffic.

 

I am an odd sort of modeller, my focus being on running prototypically correct formations behind my GWR Castle and just sitting back and watching it trundle around the garden.

 

I have several "Ocean" rakes made up using much of the info I have gathered here and in all of the books and magazines I can find. 

 

I did have a question about the pre-29 era, particularly 27 and 28. The Pullmans were not available yet but there were over 200 liners a year arriving at Millbay and up to 5 special trains leaving in a single day! 

 

My assumption would be that there would be a large 1st class requirement and this is supported by the existence of H20, the 1st Restaurant / Kitchen / Brake (and to a lesser extend the 12 wheeler H22) both of which were seen a lot on these specials. 

 

But all of the info I can find about suitable 1st class stock, particularly A10 and A11 (70' 1st and 70' 1st Brake) was that they were made for the Fishguard boat trains (and never seemingly had a dining car set to go with them). 

 

Do any of you know if these 70' 1sts made it onto the Plymouth traffic? My assumption would be that they would have indeed been called into action, especially before the Pullmans or the Saloons existed. 

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Sets were made up to suit, There was still a large number of clerestory all first stock in front line service. The 'Milford' set was used on Boat trains from Plymouth. here is a mid 20's boat train.

D21 (x2), A7 + part of the diner giving the first accommodation. Post WWI and 1926 general strike, the all first days were over. 1930's 'Ocean' rakes carried third class vehicles.

 

Mike Wiltshire

4025_d21_a7_h33.c22_d21_d4x_c3x.jpg.0a62613d20b77d13296f1ab02cfd2815.jpg

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43 minutes ago, vonmarshall said:

That is great info Mike and a wonderful photo! Do you have any other photos you can share?

 

Do you think any of the articulated dining sets were ever used?

Yes they were. Somewhere I have a pic of A KIng hauling a train of mostly dining cars including TWO artic dining sets being worked empty to Plymouth for return boat trains. This was the challenge of boat trains - they usually required stock to be worked empty for the return loaded run.

 

A friend has several shots of the ex Milford coaches in boat trains.

 

Mike Wiltshire

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I believe I have seen a similar photo of a King or Castle with a load of Dining cars and kitchens being hauled empty down to Plymouth in one of the Books / Magazines I have. What a great formation to model!

 

I have all of the Coach books, Plymouth in the 30's, relevant GWR journals on articulated and Pullmans, Backtrack volumes on Restaurant cars and the Hubback collection along with all of the photos I can find online, but if you know of somewhere else I should be looking, do let me know.

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There are several images of the empty dining car train taken at different times from the same Wellington location.

 

I am lucky in that the author of the Backtrack articles and several books is a good friend and lives close to me. He has a library of well over 500 (no exaggeration) carriage shots so source material has never been an issue. The boat train is his, one of many, taken in the 20/30's at the same location.

 

I look at shows and eBay for images. I usually only but shots that show complete trains.

 

Mike Wiltshire

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  • 11 months later...

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