Using a brick garage as a model room

[woodenhead]

About to move house and finally have a proper layout space - two options - preferred is using 4th bed/study as location for a layout but perhaps we should use that room as a study.

 

Second option, the house is new build and has a brick garage attached to the side, with tiled roof, brick walls and an up and over door, there is no direct access to the house or other doors only the up and over.

 

We wont be using the garage for cars as brilliantly the house also has space for two cars in the drive and the garage will be for storage.

 

I've searched the forum and have seen that garages can suffer the same hot/cold issues as a loft so my question is this, with brick walls and a proper tiled roof what would I be advised to do to make it less variable, do I need to actually do anything other than install an electric radiator to combat the winter below freezing periods - the roof is open i.e. no ceiling below the structure so I imagine at the very least that would need addressing to reduce the space to be heated.

[kandc_au]

Not familiar with the up and over door, as to whether it is tracked or not like a tilt a door here.

I agree to put in a ceiling, I woiuld also seal the brickwork and if there is any gaps with the door then I would be inclined to put in a wall to seal the door area.

Either way you can still have your door with the internal wall and personal access door effectively hidden by the main door.

 

Just some thoughts........

 

Khris

[Penrhos1920]

I have used a detached brick garage for my model railway for a two or more years now. To solve the cold winter problem i had a wood burner installed in the middle of the garage. It takes 30 - 60 minutes to heat up the garage enough to be able to build the layout. The main issue with the cold was that we not only got cold, but that we also made serious mistakes when installing track and points, so our brains were also effected.

 

My garage didn't have an up and over door, but a sliding door. However I think the main issues would be the same. It is a serious security risk and the gaps around the edges only makes the cold worse. It didn't cost a lot to get a uPVC side door installed so I could seal the main door shut.

 

The main issue left to resolve with the garage is now dirt. Half of the garage has a ceiling and the layout under that half stays reasonably clean; just like in a spare room. The half without a ceiling gets very dirty. It appears that most of the dirt comes from the roof tiles, but there is also some mortar dust from the gable end wall. To sort this out I've decided that I'm going to buy some of this modern bubble wrap type insulation to create a ceiling with.

 

Unless your spare room is bigger than you garage. Put your layout in the garage and set up a modelling desk in the spare room for building stock etc. The proper thing to do with the garage would be to insulate and plaster the walls and ceiling, but I would just start using it and see what you need to in 6-9 months time once you know how dirty it is and how cold it gets.

[AMJ]

Up and over doors are OK but best kept closed in the winter so as to keep in some resemblence of warmth in the garage.

 

You might want to skin the brick walls with an insulation board if the walls are single thickness bricks.

 

The coldest apperture is the door opening. An alternative that some have done is to get planning permission to remove the door and replace with a wall, window and a normal door. This tends to be classed as a "granny flat" type of conversion.

 

If you build the layout in the garage ensure you have shelves above and below that are accessible and fit the requirements for your storage. You don't want to have to move something like the mowere each time you go to the finger poken yard.

 

With adequate insulationyou will probably get away with a small heater to keep the chill off during the winter.

[woodenhead]

Thanks guys, maybe I start off in the spare room and see if SWMBO will later let me upgrade the garage - cost and my concern over the cold when I am not going to be able to spend too much yet on upgrading.

 

The spare room aint massive and it might need to accommodate more than a railway but it's a lot more permanent that what I have now.

[Fat Controller]

Rather than going for a full 'granny flat' conversion, it might be worth looking at replacing the up-an-over door with side-hinged wooden doors with glazed panels. We've done this with ours; the doors cost about £300. I would look also at dry-lining the walls, as suggested by others, and also sealing the floor with several coats of floor paint; both measures keep the dust down.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Fat Controller

[Joseph_Pestell]

How much space do you need for your layout?

 

Best option is probably to build a partition about 1m20 inside the up-and-over door. That way you get storage for lawnmower, bikes, etc. separate from the layout.

 

Make sure all walls and roof/ceiling well insulated.

 

Check out the current Settle-Carlisle thread on here for details of fitting out a garage.

[woodenhead]

How much space do you need for your layout?

 

I think perhaps I should start off smaller and aim to move in later when I have been able to properly ascertain what it's going to be like and how ambitious I want to be with the layout. The good news is that the garage is for storage of clean stuff, we'll have a shed for garden stuff.

[Wummyock]

You can get plasterboard with an insulation fixed to the back of it so you just fix it to the wall with "dot n dab".Its in the region of an 1"1/2 thick.

[edcayton]

Would it be feasible to put a door between the garage and the house? If so, you could put a partition wall behind the up-and-over to seal against draughts and dirt. If you do put the door between the house and garage the garage floor level must be below the house floor level.

 

Ed

 

I agree with Joseph Pestell about creating a short "mini garage" in the front part of the garage to keep bikes/motorbikes in, and then a partition across the back where the layout is. Any windows?

Edited September 11, 2012 by edcayton

[Taz]

....I agree with Joseph Pestell about creating a short "mini garage" in the front part of the garage to keep bikes/motorbikes in, and then a partition across the back where the layout is....

 

Like this:

 

 

More details in my layout thread for anyone who is interested

[Physicsman]

I had an external double garage - basically used to store rubbish. It was crying out to be turned into a model room, but it was the temperature variations in the building that bothered me. It was dry and I was willing to sacrifice most of it (I've kept a quarter for storage).

 

So insulation was the key. If interested, see my thread - link below,

 

Jeff

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... see if SWMBO will later let me upgrade the garage - cost and my concern over the cold when I am not going to be able to spend too much yet on upgrading...

Quite seriously in terms of the general insulation of the house, having the attached garage insulated to some extent (as the various suggestions above) will further reduce heat loss from the house. And the garage may well stay warm enough for model railway room use without any fixed heating needing to be installed; just use something like a fan heater in really bitter weather to take the edge off if necessary.

 

Rahter like Jeff describes, I have a freestanding single skin brick construction flat roofed building, and two inches of foam transformed it from oven in summer, ice box in winter, to something very comfortable. Don't have to heat it, just dress per season.

[Black Sheep]

Up and over doors are OK but best kept closed in the winter so as to keep in some resemblence of warmth in the garage.

 

You might want to skin the brick walls with an insulation board if the walls are single thickness bricks.

 

The coldest apperture is the door opening. An alternative that some have done is to get planning permission to remove the door and replace with a wall, window and a normal door. This tends to be classed as a "granny flat" type of conversion.

 

If you build the layout in the garage ensure you have shelves above and below that are accessible and fit the requirements for your storage. You don't want to have to move something like the mowere each time you go to the finger poken yard.

 

With adequate insulationyou will probably get away with a small heater to keep the chill off during the winter.

 

if you go this route then you need to bear a couple of things in mind:

 

1, if you ever come to sell the house you have what looks from the outside like a self contained apartment but inside has a concrete floor and not central heated which may put people off (who were wanting a garage) or have the council trying to up your council tax bracket due to the 'extra room'

 

2, putting a window in the front of the garage allows the paperboy / postman and other people who have a less legitimate reason to be walking close to the front of your house to see what you have inside.

[Fat Controller]

if you go this route then you need to bear a couple of things in mind:

 

1, if you ever come to sell the house you have what looks from the outside like a self contained apartment but inside has a concrete floor and not central heated which may put people off (who were wanting a garage) or have the council trying to up your council tax bracket due to the 'extra room'

 

2, putting a window in the front of the garage allows the paperboy / postman and other people who have a less legitimate reason to be walking close to the front of your house to see what you have inside.

Hence the replacement of one half of the double 'up and over' door by a pair of normal doors in ours- the other half (which for the last twenty years has only been accessible by driving across the vegetable plot and through the greenhouse) has been closed in with timber with a 5' x 3' window. I must get a roller blind or similar for this; partially for security reasons, but mainly because the sun shines full in my eyes if I'm at the workbench in the afternoons.

[Gilbert]

Don't forget to include ventilation in your plans

Chris

[flubrush]

And it's also worth considering installing a wooden floor if the garage floor is concrete or composite. This provides insulation from the cold concrete, but, more importantly, makes life a bit easier on your feet and legs since you could be doing a lot of standing around when building and running the layout. This can be done fairly easily by laying battens on the existing concrete floor with damp proof protection, then laying tongued and grooved wood or chipboard on the battens.

 

Jim.

[woodenhead]

It's only a modest single garage so putting up a partition probably will create two unusable spaces rather than a single reasonable space. I don't want to put in a door at the moment due to the cost an impact on the main house.

 

What I am hearing is - insulation - a modest lining will make a big difference, the up and over door will need something do to insulate as well, put in a false ceiling to cut out dust from above, paint the floor (or put in a wooden one) and maybe a partition.

[westcountryman]

I utilised a single detached garage at our former house for my layout, & as long as you are aware that the walls & ceiling will need insulating, you won'y go too far wrong.

I used Kindspan / Celotex for the wall insulation, you can get it online or from any of the big DIY retailers.

I fixed it to battens, & then 'dry-lined' the walls with foil faced plasterboard.

I built a framework of stud timber & infilled the cavities with more celotex, to provide a partition wall, & I also fitted a standard door to allow access.

The ceiling was simple. A wooden framework, & rolls of fibreglass ( itchy!!) formed a suspended ceiling structure, & again a face lining of foil faced plasterboard.

As there were already electrics installed in the original garage, I simply re-routed them to provide effective lighting, & used dry-line pattress boxes for the sockets.

Heating was supplied by a pair of thermostatically controlled 240v oil filled radiators, & although a bit expensive to run, they proved ideal.

I would say that the entire job set me back about £300, as I did all of the work myself, & only needed a qualified electrician to test & sign the job off.

As long as you take your time, use a spirit level, & have access to fairly run of the mill tools, the job should be well within your capabilities.

If all else fails, just look on Youtube at the tutorials for particular jobs, because they are well worth searching out.

There was not an issue of planning permission, as when I talked to the planning office & building control, the structure wasn't being totally converted.

When we sold the house this minor 'conversion' was actually quite pivotal in securing the sale, as folk seem to like the additional room.

Anyway, best of luck to you, & I hope that the job works out well.

Cheers

Rob

[The Stationmaster]

An odd thing about garages is the tend to prove a very different physical fact - cold rises. Thus I would also suggest insulating the floor in some way or at least covering it with chipboard (waterproof of course) over a suitable liner. Fortunately my garage includes a 'room' partitioned off at one side of the structure complete with an insulated floor - it helps keep the temperature up a bit in colder weather.

[Coach bogie]

An odd thing about garages is the tend to prove a very different physical fact - cold rises. Thus I would also suggest insulating the floor in some way or at least covering it with chipboard (waterproof of course) over a suitable liner. Fortunately my garage includes a 'room' partitioned off at one side of the structure complete with an insulated floor - it helps keep the temperature up a bit in colder weather.

 

Totally agree. I took over the garage when we moved to out present address. Based on experience at the previous address, the floor was the greatest source of cold and the walls were already lined there when I moved in.

 

This one has two layers of carpet removed from the main house as 'the boss' hated it and had all new fitted - not dreadful enough underfoor for the railway. As for the lifting doors, thick ugly, full length curtains from a car boot sale, keep out the wind and still allow access to the bikes, garden chairs and all manner of junk that needs storing. I could have lined the walls for greater insulation but have not found it cold enough to bother as the boiler is in the garage and gives off enough heat that I need. The roof is insulated with boxes of family junk (do Airfix still make flightdeck?). After many years located in NE Scotland, Yorkshire feels generally warmer for the layout.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited September 13, 2012 by Coach bogie

[chris p bacon]

If the garage has enough room for you to make something in then the main factors I can think of are;

 

Access - If you intend to put a door through to the house this must be a fire rated door in a correct frame.

 

Insulation - can't have enough, the more you put in the less heat you have to provide, the more heat you put in the room the more condensation you have to deal with. If the walls are single skin brick you can put a battens on the wall and infill with board insulation (kingspan and celotex rigid foam are better but you can use polystyrene) andthen cover with a board such as plasterboard.

 

Garage door, if this is the only way in the best bet is to construct a stud wall across the garage and divide it, you can then seal the railway room and have some storage.

 

Floor - Concrete floors are awful to spend a long time standing on, you need to either cover it with some layers or better still an insulated false floor.

 

Ceiling - as much insulation as you can get up there and boarded, in winter places such as B & Q have subsidised rolls of quilt for as little a £3-5 for 100mm thick (I'd put 200mm)

 

Ventilation - although you need to seal up any unwanted gaps you do need some controlled ventilation for the room, could be something as simple as a couple of sliding vents.

 

Only got a few minutes and that is all I can think of at the moment.

[Fat Controller]

Further to the issue of carpets; you can often pick up remnants from a local carpet fitter for relatively little.

[Sasquatch]

 I have enjoyed reading this thread. Being spoilt with a 3 car garage I used some of the space for the layout home and built a lean-to from cheep ofb and 2x4 framing. It has a low cieling atop which is used for light storage. There`s a little fan heater which warms it up in no time, double swing doors which are a boon when it comes to swapping things arround and getting to shows. Its great on a summers evening when that evening light hits the layout. 

[Michael Delamar]

Ive recently had planning permission granted for a new garage to replace an older and smaller one in front of my house. Its closer to the roadside and also to the house, and to make it fit the rear corner is in front of the house line which is where I needed permission.

 

I want this as a railway room and also so that it could be used as a garage for a car if needed, also the garage door would be needed as the layout when dismantled goes on trolleys which can be wheeled straight out the garage door onto a van with tail lift.
 

Basically a granny room with a garage door.

 

Whats bugging me is the security, Even though its a quiet close Im still not 100% sure id like all of my stuff at the front of the house, for some reason the rear of the house feels more secure. Although this isnt an option. 

 

And also the garage door itself. I want the building to be as warm and insulated as possible, im considering heated flooring as radiators would be in the way of the layout. The achilles heel seems to be the main door, also I need it to take up the least depth as possible to maximise the internal space.

 

At the moment I cant decide weather it is worth going ahead or even to move property to somewhere which has larger space for a rear of the house building. Parking of cars in front of the house is starting to feel an issue so I may pave the garden, but then I think the garden being paved with a garage next to and no garden walls may look odd?