Poggy1165 Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 Well, Cody, when I was your age etched kits had only just started to appear. I bought one, looked at it and gave up. It was many, many years before I had the bottle to build one, and the secret of my eventual success was a resistance soldering unit, which is not a cheap bit of kit. However, many modellers of your age and just a bit older can and do build etched kits using basic soldering equipment. It isn't easy, not at first, but it can be done. My advice to you is buy the simplest cheapest etched kit you can find and have a go, having first read all the advice on the subject you can find. (Or better still, watch a practical demonstration.) Otherwise, save up for those Farish coaches, and put the etched kits away until you get a bit more experienced. There is, I'm afraid, no magic bunny easy solution. I only wish there were, as I'd have used it myself, long ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonRyan Posted September 16, 2012 Author Share Posted September 16, 2012 I'm afraid that comes accross as rather defeatist. Why should others help you if you are unwilling to help yourself by learning with something simpler first? Nobody enters the hobby with the full set of skills to do everything stright away - even the best had to learn. You need to apply the '3Ps' Patience, Practice and Persistence... I apologize that i've been misunderstood and for my not being able to properly explain the situation. Basically what i've been trying to get across is that there is a certain limitation of what i can accomplish myself that can be expanded upon in some respects, but in others it is literally impossible to change. In short, what i see as the finished product in my mind cannot be translated into a finished product by my hands. It's simply that i cannot reproduce something without there being some form of assisting provision built into the kit or whatever else i may be doing. Hence why i have not been able to hand-lay points, jigs are far too cost prohibitive and templates don't offer the support that my hands should, but cannot, provide. With other etched kits i've done, i've been able to make improvements in my workmanship, but the kits i did had varying provisions built in to make assembly less of "figure, finagle, and fit" but more of "examine, fit, and refine". Some were more challenging than others, but all were designed to go together. These coach kits require a degree of exactness that i enjoy, but with too many complications for me to be able to achieve the required fit of the four sides. The curvature in the sides, which fit in what way, and so on. Even with my trying to get across all the details to where hopefully everyone can understand the situation, my mind cannot take the thoughts of what i need to say, and get it to where it actually can be put into words. Again, i apologize to everyone for the confusion and misunderstanding that i've caused. And i do hope everyone can realize that i'm not being a defeatist and just not willing to try, but actually cannot build these kits. I do appreciate those who have provided their input thus far. Albeit some of it may or may not have been the result of my inability to get my message properly across... I do still want to hear from others what they may or may-not be able to do inorder to help. If perhaps there is some way that someone or a few people could provide some form(s) of assistance (i.e. making the sides, adding some form of a structure that would simplify the final assembly, etc.) to where i myself could do the final assembly to where they are ready to be sent out to painted (?). Thanks again everyone, your continued input/support is much appreciated. -Cody F. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R A Watson Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 It seems that it is not a question of ."you cannot do it" but more that "you do not know how to doo it"! You state that you have built other etched kits so I assume that you can solder things together and therefore must posses the necessary solder, flux and irons etc,is this the situation? You will find that folks on here can provide tips and explanations if you tell us exactly what you are having problems with and will receieve advice in a different tone to that you have experienced so far. Don't give up trying think things through and tell us how you get on, the mistakes as well as the successes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Collier Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 Hi, I can see from this thread that many are trying to help, mainly to encourage Cody to have a go although defeatist has been mentioned. Although everyone has the best of intentions you need to be aware of his disability he mentioned in the original post which I think has been missed. Aspergers syndrome is in the autistic spectrum which my son suffers from. Cody is probably having problems conveying his difficulty in building Worsley Works kits. I will endeavour to explain the problem using my son as an example. He loves his Lego and if you buy him a set and give it to him he can build it no problem as it is structured with step by step guides. If you take the instructions away and just show him a picture of the finished model his brain just doesn't have the ability to work out how to get from A to B. This is why Cody mentions he has built kits in the past as they came with instructions whereas Worsley etches are scratch aids. I'm sure if a set of instructions became available he could build them. Until my sons autism was diagnosed and I'd been on courses I couldn't grasp why he couldn't do things. It used to drive me mad. The brain is very complex and when yours works as it should it is very hard to understand someone whose brain, basically, isn't quite wired up right. Hopefully this clarifies his original post as I think we may otherwise end up going round in circles. Gareth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PaulCheffus Posted September 16, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 16, 2012 Hi, I can see from this thread that many are trying to help, mainly to encourage Cody to have a go although defeatist has been mentioned. Although everyone has the best of intentions you need to be aware of his disability he mentioned in the original post which I think has been missed. Aspergers syndrome is in the autistic spectrum which my son suffers from. Cody is probably having problems conveying his difficulty in building Worsley Works kits. Hi I didn't miss it but I may have misunderstood. When my son was at school he was also diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome and can quite happily put kits together. Recently I noticed that when wanting to paint something he would look it up on You Tube and then follow the instructions, I didn't make the link here that he couldn't do it without instructions. After reading your post Gareth I think I understand more and my offer wouldn't be of any use. Cheers Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted September 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 16, 2012 Having read Gareth's explanation it suggests that Cody will have quite a lot of problems if he has his heart set on models of certain things where there are no clear instructions There is so much of 2mm which requires either treading your own path or building up to things in stages learning in stages so that he can build up not just skills but the mental paths to use them. What is really needed is some possibly some form of mentor who can point out the stages suggesting kits whith instructions to try first. These may be less preferred models but more achievable. The other piece of advice is to ask first for advice before ordering things. I wish Cody all the best ps I don't think things would be better in other scales unless you just want to buy RTR things in which case 00 offers much more choice. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R A Watson Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 I had realised the problems he was going through which was why I tried to offer a slightly different form of approach in my message offering collective assistance with his modelling problems. I have had experience with a young lad who attends our club who suffers with very similar problems, but with some explanation and assistance he has put together some of my Worsley Works coach kits ( albeit in 7mm scale) and even took some home as a homework project. All that is needed is for someone to offer the the correct guidance and I am sure we will soon see the results of his efforts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thos Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 I think the better solution may be to move to N, where there is much available RTR, including second hand through ebay. Would the instructions in Society kits be clear enough to follow? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Cody, It reads as if you can solder etched kits and have successfully managed to do so where instructions and assembly aids (as part of the kit design, such as slots/tabs) were available? If someone were to write some instructions on how to build this style of coach, including how you might make the jigs to hold everything whilst soldering (no-one with just two hands can hold two pieces of brass accurately, plus solder and an iron, to make a join without construction aids), do you think you would be able to construct these kits? Yes, I am volunteering if you believe that with adequate illustrated instructions we can overcome? Regards, Richard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 I'm in school (12th grade=senior in highschool), but there is no class that even gets close to working with 3d design software. that program got cut 5 or so years back due to lack of interest. I'd have to pay someone to design them for me... money i don't have, hence why its either keep the kits or sell/trade them for something more manageable with my skillset. I still wouldn't write off 3d printing them - I only suggested Solidworks or similar because if you have access to it then it's a very valuable skill if you every plan to have a career in engineering or design. However, there are plenty of free design packages out there which you don't need any teaching to use - I recommend having a look at Sketchup: http://www.sketchup.com/intl/en/download/index.html There is a free version (bottom right on that page). There are lots of beginner's guides out there and It's very easy to learn It's also well supported by Shapeways and iMaterialise. Even if you don't use it for 3d printing, I find it invaluable for doing quick layouts for scratch built locos/buildings/layouts/everything to see how it will all fit together before I start building. I started using it when I was at school (before I got into using 'real' CAD software). I've never had any training, just learnt by trial and error (and google). You can learn the basics in a couple of hours. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonRyan Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 It seems that it is not a question of ."you cannot do it" but more that "you do not know how to doo it"! You state that you have built other etched kits so I assume that you can solder things together and therefore must posses the necessary solder, flux and irons etc,is this the situation? You will find that folks on here can provide tips and explanations if you tell us exactly what you are having problems with and will receieve advice in a different tone to that you have experienced so far. Don't give up trying think things through and tell us how you get on, the mistakes as well as the successes. Actually i haven't any flux, and my cheap'o iron has quit. Solder is no problem since i have a large roll from someone who worked in the electronics industry. The etched kits i put together were assembled with thin super-glue (Krazy Glue brand) which i use for most-everything. Having read Gareth's explanation it suggests that Cody will have quite a lot of problems if he has his heart set on models of certain things where there are no clear instructions There is so much of 2mm which requires either treading your own path or building up to things in stages learning in stages so that he can build up not just skills but the mental paths to use them. What is really needed is some possibly some form of mentor who can point out the stages suggesting kits whith instructions to try first. These may be less preferred models but more achievable. The other piece of advice is to ask first for advice before ordering things. I wish Cody all the best ps I don't think things would be better in other scales unless you just want to buy RTR things in which case 00 offers much more choice. Don Well i actually bought these kits from the N gauge range of Worsley Works since that is what i model in, albeit with not much thus far save an N-trak module, about 8 pieces of rolling stock, and a lone Graham Farish BR class 04 (which is finally getting the replacement parts it needs). My other modelling efforts are also in N Scale, with a focus on the Pennsylvania Railroad's freight operations in my local area during the period from the Second World War till 1955. Of which, with a lot of coaxing from some folks on another forum and even some chipped in parts, i've begun to start a kitbashing project of a PRR H10sa, which is a 2-8-0 and when complete will conveniently fit on the Bachmann chassis. To model in multiple scales with such a limited budget is quite prohibitive and i do like the flexibility of modelling the two parts of the world in the same scale/gauge. Cody, It reads as if you can solder etched kits and have successfully managed to do so where instructions and assembly aids (as part of the kit design, such as slots/tabs) were available? If someone were to write some instructions on how to build this style of coach, including how you might make the jigs to hold everything whilst soldering (no-one with just two hands can hold two pieces of brass accurately, plus solder and an iron, to make a join without construction aids), do you think you would be able to construct these kits? Yes, I am volunteering if you believe that with adequate illustrated instructions we can overcome? Regards, Richard. Honestly, if your instructions go so far as to outline how to make assembly jigs, i think i could give them a go. Jigs do seem to ease my mind, as well as my hands. When i originally started looking into Nn3, i intended to use jigs for turnouts , but at $125 USD for one jig and when its only a piece of CNC milled aluminum (yes, i can pronounce it the American way and the English way. ) i'll just stick with the three discarded turnouts that someone on one of the many yahoo groups had collecting dust. Thanks all for the suggestions thus far, perhaps some form of solution has been found, perhaps not, but we shall see. -Cody F. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Hi again, I'd like to point out (politely, and without any implied criticism) that the conditions being discussed can cover a very wide range of symptoms and severities, so what one person may or may not be able to do with a particular diagnosis isn't very useful to extrapolate to others. One option Cody might be to find a local railroad (I can speak American too!) club where someone may be able to help in person. I'm afraid that I can't be much more help to you Cody on this specific question but I wish you the best of luck. the secret of my eventual success was a resistance soldering unit, which is not a cheap bit of kit. I agree, this is an incredibly useful tool (almost essential in my opinion). As an off-topic aside, it's very easy to make your own RSU (I made mine for a grand total of £5, although I did have a 10A PSU already) The parts needed are: An old soldering iron handle and stand Some carbon rod (Thick pencil graphite can work, but I use a 6mm carbon welding rod sharpened in a pencil sharpner) A foot switch Some 13A flex A relatively beefy power supply or car battery (>5A,>10V - preferably adjustable) Care must be taken though - this is a high power electrical device and will be dangerous if not assembled correctly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonRyan Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 Hi again, I'd like to point out (politely, and without any implied criticism) that the conditions being discussed can cover a very wide range of symptoms and severities, so what one person may or may not be able to do with a particular diagnosis isn't very useful to extrapolate to others. One option Cody might be to find a local railroad (I can speak American too!) club where someone may be able to help in person. I'm afraid that I can't be much more help to you Cody on this specific question but I wish you the best of luck. I'm a member of New Jersey Southern N-Trak (i'm also the club's facebook manager of sorts), only problem is that no one models anything close to the UK (one guy used to runs some german stock in the 1980s, and another who runs one of Kato's many Japanese subway sets) and no one has ever built any coach kits... plus the majority of US coaches are available RTR in N scale, and the coaches that were in use in N scale's infancy were flat (and/or streamlined) sided, and those in use on the prototype in this day and age are all covered by the major manufactures, thus no kits were ever really needed to be made (at least of what i know of). Now on the previously mentioned idea of a jig to assemble the aforementioned GWR coach kits, if the jigs could be provided or had for a reasonable price, then all hope may not be lost. -Cody F. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Now on the previously mentioned idea of a jig to assemble the aforementioned GWR coach kits, if the jigs could be provided or had for a reasonable price, then all hope may not be lost. Sorry to have not come back to you sooner with something on this: I have rather selfishly working flat out on my challenge entry and items for the upcoming AGM. I should be able to make a proper start on this w/c 10/6/2012. The jig I made is very simple. I had presumed (hoped?) that we could focus on soldered construction but I read something further up the thread that suggested you might want to glue them together? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonRyan Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 Sorry to have not come back to you sooner with something on this: I have rather selfishly working flat out on my challenge entry and items for the upcoming AGM. I should be able to make a proper start on this w/c 10/6/2012. The jig I made is very simple. I had presumed (hoped?) that we could focus on soldered construction but I read something further up the thread that suggested you might want to glue them together? Well, if soldering them seems to be the more logical option but since the new soldering iron i just bought on Wednesday seems to not like the idea of soldering (the tip is very odd, albeit and excellent fine-point) since without even soldering the iron tip builds up about a .5mm thick layer of black and yellowish crud and when scraped away (which it does easily) it comes within 1-2 seconds. I use CA type glue for almost everything except laying track and wood kits. I probably need to get a better tip... or a better iron since it seems that a $20 iron isn't much improvement over a $7 iron... -Cody F. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJones Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 That's the iron going dry, you don't have enough flux by the sounds of it. scrape it ff, cover it in flux and then coat it in solder. Keep the iron covered in solder at all times even when resting. You're not supposed to file the crud off in case it goes through the plating of the tip, but in practice as long as you keep it coated in solder afterwards and forever more it will make no difference. I recently had a major headache with this when using some really nasty old solder, filed it back, dipped it in the flux then coated it with good stuff and it's back to normal. Same tip has been on the iron for nearly 20 years, I don't intend changing it yet! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonRyan Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 That's the iron going dry, you don't have enough flux by the sounds of it. scrape it ff, cover it in flux and then coat it in solder. Keep the iron covered in solder at all times even when resting. You're not supposed to file the crud off in case it goes through the plating of the tip, but in practice as long as you keep it coated in solder afterwards and forever more it will make no difference. I recently had a major headache with this when using some really nasty old solder, filed it back, dipped it in the flux then coated it with good stuff and it's back to normal. Same tip has been on the iron for nearly 20 years, I don't intend changing it yet! Well, from the way it looked when i got it, the very tip (about 3/8th of an inch give or take) was very dull looking, like cast lead sort of, not even plated like the rest of the tip so there is nothing to worry about scraping off except the weird substance. Also i don't use flux since i don't own any. I've always just used rosin core solder and have never had a problem. I guess that is what i get for buying an tool for electrical purposes from a home-improvement store... -Cody F. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted September 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 30, 2012 The rosin core is fine for electrical work but for assembling brass or nickel silver you need better flux. You could see what is available locally for plumbers. Also at the end of a work session it is best to clean of the model as these sorts of flux are active. dON Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonRyan Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 The rosin core is fine for electrical work but for assembling brass or nickel silver you need better flux. You could see what is available locally for plumbers. Also at the end of a work session it is best to clean of the model as these sorts of flux are active. dON Well, a member of the N-Trak club i belong to works in the field of electronic engineering technology and has access to a lot of professional grade materials so he can source some good flux for me (at the best price... free, and at no cost to him as well). As is i've never used flux, never knew i needed it for anything as i read an article in one of the US modelling mags that flux shouldn't be used since it is extremely corrosive and can cause solder joints to fail after a few years, and i've only seen a few statements on the contrary... but then again the member who works with electronics on a daily basis uses flux (the paste kind) and he has no complaints so i guess it checks out alright... -Cody F. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted October 1, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 1, 2012 The US mags are part right the flux is corrosive which is why it cleans up the metal to improve the soldering. Thats why I said to wash the part built model after a session and that is why you do not use it for electrical work where you cannot wash it. I find an old toothbrush good for cleaning the model. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted October 1, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 1, 2012 There are different fluxes used in soldering. Some, like rosin, are non-corrosive and non-conductive and thus quite suitable for electrical work, whilst others aren't. For many years I have used Phosphoric Acid as a flux, reduced with plain water at a ratio of 5-1 or 20%. Some use it a lower rate of 10%. It is also the basis of many propriety fluxes. Whilst it is very good as a flux, and at a reduced rate is not all that corrosive, the big problem with using it for electrical work is that it is conductive. As it runs freely it can easily bridge connections between electrical components and cause short-circuits. Izzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonRyan Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 Interesting how we went from discussing my options on getting the coach kits built to talking about soldering and flux... -Cody F. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonRyan Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Just to let everyone know, I've been contacted by someone from the Darkest Essex Area Group about the set of four GWR 4-wheel coaches that were put together by Peter Whitehead, who passed away sometime last year. The man handling Peter's 2mm stock is the one who has contacted me, and with a deal... he trades me the 4 coaches Peter has assembled (sans window glazing, paint, and decals) for my 4 un-built etches so that he might sell them to donate the money made to a charity Peter supported. Now all is well and good in that this works out for the both of us (and a charity, which is a major plus in my eyes), but that leaves me needing some way to get the coaches painted and decals applied. The glazing issue i can handle easily with pieces of clear styrene, but paint and decals are a whole other world. If there is someone who can paint (in GWR brown and cream livery) and decals these coaches, i'd certainly be willing to pay for the decals used and return shipping as long as paypal is accepted. Thanks All for the advice you've given and the various points of encouragement and general input. I'm very grateful to know that there are others who are supportive of this lone modeller from the USA, modelling a land an ocean away. -Cody F. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 So you don't need me to walk through building a coach kit then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonRyan Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 So you don't need me to walk through building a coach kit then? Well, it might actually help because i caught a good tidbit from the grapevine that someone here in the USA is making GWR clerestory coach etches based on the comet models type of assembly. The details that i was told are second hand (as in from someone who was told this buy the guy who is doing them) thus the info so can be fairly well trusted. The guy used to do commercial etching and now does etches of all kinds of eclectic stock that pops into his mind. He only produces for people on request and doesn't involve himself with the internet so obtaining them might be hard, but his etches are very cheap because he know someone in the metals industry. More to come on them once i get further details. -Cody F. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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