dave_long Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Hi all Looking for some help on what would have happened, location is Bloxwich on the Cannock chase line. My prototype thread here: http://www.rmweb.co....ock-chase-line/ Here is the box signal diagram: Bloxwich Signal Box by Bescot Curve, on Flickr With regards to operation and the diagram above, all freight to Bloxwich came from the Walsall direction on the DOWN line and departed towards Walsall, now would a train have pulled passed the single slip and then reversed over the slip to the UP line and then used the crossing section of the slip to pull forward into the siding, or would the train have pulled over the crossing and used the standard crossover to reverse the train directly into the sidings straight ahead and to the right on the 3 way tandem? I know that the crossing north of the level crossing is used to run around the wagons once they have been pulled out of the industrial sidings, but would they have ever used it to reverse directly into the sidings? I'm thinking this may not of happened due to having a unmanned crossing to negotiate to get to the industry's sidings. So I think it would have reversed back over the slip and pulled forward, but thats my small knowledge of how the MR did such maneuvers without having facing points (hopefully thats correct), is it possible to tell from the layout of ground signals, is anyone able to tell me what routes those signals offer? I suspect that I'm asking a very big question so any help would be greatly appreciated! Can anyone id the ground discs and signal for me, I'm a complete dunce when it comes to signals. My time period for a layout is generally the 1980s, however I have only found 1 photo and thats just a through passenger on a diversion, and sadly doesn't show any of the signaling. I believe that until the sidings were removed recently that the signaling in the following links is how it would have been especially considering that the box diagram above still shows the names of the sidings as they would have been pre 70s! http://jandjcottrell...47728#h21447728 http://tractorman.sm...DtXDw4&lb=1&s=O http://www.flickr.co...ion/6385862385/ South View from Bloxwich Signal Box by Kevin R Boyd, on Flickr Bloxwich Level Crossing by Kevin R Boyd, on Flickr Thanks for the help Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted September 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2012 With regards to operation and the diagram above, all freight to Bloxwich came from the Walsall direction on the DOWN line and departed towards Walsall, now would a train have pulled passed the single slip and then reversed over the slip to the UP line and then used the crossing section of the slip to pull forward into the siding, or would the train have pulled over the crossing and used the standard crossover to reverse the train directly into the sidings straight ahead and to the right on the 3 way tandem? Speaking generics, there may have been local special moves ! Use the crossover into the yard. I know that the crossing north of the level crossing is used to run around the wagons once they have been pulled out of the industrial sidings, but would they have ever used it to reverse directly into the sidings? I'm thinking this may not of happened due to having a unmanned crossing to negotiate to get to the industry's sidings. The unmanned crossing is worked from the box and has a signal controlling it - so no issues. The first photos linked below shows exactly that move Looking at your other thread it appears you are referring to a different crossing ? - that's down to local control, the route off the big railway would probably be the ground frame to get trains clear of the running line (more length if that connection used) without waiting for the local shunters. So I think it would have reversed back over the slip and pulled forward, but thats my small knowledge of how the MR did such maneuvers without having facing points (hopefully thats correct), is it possible to tell from the layout of ground signals, is anyone able to tell me what routes those signals offer? I suspect that I'm asking a very big question so any help would be greatly appreciated! Can anyone id the ground discs and signal for me, I'm a complete dunce when it comes to signals. Signal 28 looks to be a standard LMR (possibly LMS) The discs are standard LMR Signal 14 has a darked red that some of them seemed to be given (presumably paint variations when fired) Signal 15 is yellow, it has a white background, a yellow stripe with black edges. Signal 18 is plain even though it should have a diamond sign The faces on 14 and 18 have been replaced by the time the 2002 photo was taken. hth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_long Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 Thanks Sorry I should have added more details, there is a unmanned crossing on the NS co sidings spur top right of the tandem turnout which is only about 500 yards from the turnout. There weren't any local shunters whatever brought the wagons to Bloxwich shunted the sidings. Everything from a 31 to 2x20s to an 08 to a single 20 and then latterly 37s. So in your experience you'd suggest that reversing in to the loop ready to shunt straight in to the NS co siding you'd reverse over the standard crossing to the right of the main level crossing and only use the slip on departure? Although the reverse and pull forward over the slip is a legitimate move? ( but maybe not by the 80s) Many thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_long Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 These are described as LMS but seem to be as far as I can tell the ground discs that I need? It does say that they were the adopted standard disc for BR. from the PDF instructions the disc stand seems to be similar. http://www.modelsignals.com/4mm_detail/gs0011/page.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted September 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2012 Sorry I should have added more details, there is a unmanned crossing on the NS co sidings spur top right of the tandem turnout which is only about 500 yards from the turnout. Do you have the relevant sectional appendix ? - this will have any local rules, one of which may describe the shunt moves and which crossover was to be used There weren't any local shunters whatever brought the wagons to Bloxwich shunted the sidings. Everything from a 31 to 2x20s to an 08 to a single 20 and then latterly 37s. Sorrry I wasn't clear, I mean a shunter (person) rather than an 08 ! So in your experience you'd suggest that reversing in to the loop ready to shunt straight in to the NS co siding you'd reverse over the standard crossing to the right of the main level crossing and only use the slip on departure? Although the reverse and pull forward over the slip is a legitimate move? ( but maybe not by the 80s) Unless there is a good reason to do otherwise then yes, only one main line affected then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted September 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2012 These are described as LMS but seem to be as far as I can tell the ground discs that I need? It does say that they were the adopted standard disc for BR. from the PDF instructions the disc stand seems to be similar. http://www.modelsign...gs0011/page.htm Thats the blighters Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_long Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 Do you have the relevant sectional appendix ? - this will have any local rules, one of which may describe the shunt moves and which crossover was to be used Sorrry I wasn't clear, I mean a shunter (person) rather than an 08 ! Unless there is a good reason to do otherwise then yes, only one main line affected then. Thanks sadly not, however there is a chap I have bumped into a few times while out taking photos around the Midlands who seems to work at bloxwich box at the moment, he's easily identified as he drives a bright orange Mk3 escort, which was parked outside the box, but other than bumping into him again somewhere the I don't know how to get in touch. Other info is that the line was freight only until late 88, and only divs went through, or coal trains for Rugeley or mid-Cannock or hednesford sidings. Thats the blighters Thanks and these are designed to be operational too. Just got to find parts for that signal 28 I suspect that on a model I'll only have 28 maybe 27 if I make it longer. Can I ask what 5 and 6 are/for? Is all the darker track on the box diagram operated by that yard gnd frame? Many thanks Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted September 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2012 Thanks sadly not, however there is a chap I have bumped into a few times while out taking photos around the Midlands who seems to work at bloxwich box at the moment, he's easily identified as he drives a bright orange Mk3 escort, which was parked outside the box, but other than bumping into him again somewhere the I don't know how to get in touch. I know a man who does ... I'll try and look tonight for you. Other info is that the line was freight only until late 88, and only divs went through, or coal trains for Rugeley or mid-Cannock or hednesford sidings. That probably doesn't matter, it was once passenger and the way of working wouldn't change (but it might of course!) Can I ask what 5 and 6 are/for? Colour lights, 6 is the distant ( 2-aspect Y/G) and 5 is the home ( 3-aspect R/Y/G) Is all the darker track on the box diagram operated by that yard gnd frame? No - it's track that's not track circuited. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 For 28 or 29 try http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LMS-BR-4mm-scale-tubular-post-Home-Starter-Semaphore-Signal-/180968478614?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item2a228fd796#ht_500wt_1363 Cheaper than a Ratio kit. Regards Keith And i agree trains would normally reverse in to avoid blocking the other track, could use either crossover depending on the length of the train and the available space, using the ground frame is a bit more trouble so would be avoided if possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted September 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2012 As requested Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted September 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2012 using the ground frame is a bit more trouble so would be avoided if possible. Lots of tank trains used to go in at a ground frame between Stanlow and Ellesmere Port No.5 - this was a lot busier than Bloxwich, I don't think the ground frame being "a bit more trouble" would be an issue, especially as the line was effectively freight only. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_long Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 Would that suggest that a train would reverse its train into the main siding from the furthest point to the right on the diagram, because if permission to enter ICS sidings hadn't been granted yet and not to block the level crossing that would be the logical route? Keith Thanks that signal is interesting I had planned on building my own with MSE parts, but that is well made! Hmm I'll think about that overnight. Hope no one from Hednesford gets annoyed by the spelling of their town! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted September 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2012 Would that suggest that a train would reverse its train into the main siding from the furthest point to the right on the diagram, because if permission to enter ICS sidings hadn't been granted yet and not to block the level crossing that would be the logical route? Hope no one from Hednesford gets annoyed by the spelling of their town! Basically - yes. There were two ways to spell things, the local way and the LNWR way - ask people from North Wales ! The signal looks nice but it's the wrong height, I'd guess it's a 25' signal and the real one was 15' - or there abouts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_long Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 Thanks for the help and those articles. It will make a layout longer I think, shame as I liked the idea of reversing through that slip into the yard. Still a very modellable area though. What in your experience would have used the the curve on the single slip or is it a relic of a period long gone? Right I shall try and work out what the ground discs protect and what needs to be modelled. A couple of images I took recently of the signal: ( hard to get an image from the front) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Signal looks a bit shorter than the Borg rail ones on Ebay, you could shorten one or ask him to make you one shorter, but that may well put the price up. or just make your own from MSE or Alan Gibson bits. The curved side of the slip forms the normal trailing crossover present at the vast majority of boxes, mostly used for single line working. Always adds operating interest to have the Engineers out on a Sunday working on the track, even if offscene. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted September 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 11, 2012 Signal looks a bit shorter than the Borg rail ones on Ebay, you could shorten one or ask him to make you one shorter, but that may well put the price up. or just make your own from MSE or cough The signal looks nice but it's the wrong height, I'd guess it's a 25' signal and the real one was 15' - or thereabouts. As Keith says the slip portion is for any more that requires to cross over, it could be an empty unit reversing for example (as well as engineering work) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeWL Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 Bloxwich levers: 1 Barrier Control. 2 White 3 White 4 White 5 Distant Down Main 6 Home Down Main 7 Starting Down Main 8 White 9 Shunt Up Main to Down Siding or Down Main 10 Crossover Up and Down Main 11 Slip Crossing Down Siding to Up Main 12 Down Siding Spelter Siding 13 White 14 No1 Road to Up Main or Down Sidings 15 Down Siding to Down Main 16 Crossing Down Siding and Down Main 17 Shunt Down Main to Up Main 18 Shunt Down Main Preceded by 17 onto Down Siding 19 Shunt along Down Main 20 White 21 Release Goods Yard Frame 22 White 23 White 24 White 25 White 26 White. 27 Starting Up Main 28 Home 1 Up Main 29 Home 2 Up Main 30 Distant for 27 28 29 Bloxwich had some interesting features. Disc 15 was a yellow shunt signal, quite unusual. When Essington Wood Sidings Box closed in 1981 the area controlled by that box was transferred to a small NX panel in Bloxwich Signalbox, working AB to Hednesford No 1. All signals on the Down Main are colour lights, signals 27,28,29 on the Up Main are semaphores. All points and sidings at Bloxwich were removed late 2011. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted September 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 16, 2012 IIRC the last proper colliery traffic at Essington Wood ceased in 1977 and the old sidings were lifted. The old box was demolished some time before work was started on the Springhill Disposal Point as the new facility for loading of coal from surrounding sites was known by the NCB Opencast Executive. The new signalling at Esiington Wood Interlocking and panel at Bloxwich were largely paid for by the NCB when the new sidings were built in 1981. The new panel never controlled any of the old layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted September 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 16, 2012 Disc 15 was a yellow shunt signal, quite unusual An unusual survivor rather than unusual, they were very common in the "good old days" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_long Posted September 16, 2012 Author Share Posted September 16, 2012 Lee Thanks for that list, will help when I detail the signalbox interior. Guys what was/is the significance of a yellow disc, and why was it unusual? Thankfully Bing maps haven't been overhead bloxwich post track removal and its still in good view on the birds eye view. Regards Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted September 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 16, 2012 Guys what was/is the significance of a yellow disc, and why was it unusual? Yellow means it can be passed for routes to which it does not refer, in this case along the siding to the ground frame connection, anything using the crossover to the main would have to wait for the signal to clear. It's an unusual survivor because most of the sidings etc. where they were situated have long since been removed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 16, 2012 Guys what was/is the significance of a yellow disc, and why was it unusual? Regards Dave Well as Beast has already said it wasn't actually 'unusual'. The meaning was simple - it was permissible to pass a yellow arm disc at danger when the points to which it applied were set towards a route to which the signal did not apply when 'off'. What this usually meant was that at a siding connection into a running line the disc could be passed at danger to go towards a headshunt or another yard siding but had to be off if the points were set towards the main line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_long Posted September 16, 2012 Author Share Posted September 16, 2012 OK thanks I've got it. Can pass the signal into the loop siding but not on to the down main, thanks guys. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_long Posted September 16, 2012 Author Share Posted September 16, 2012 Here is the essington colliery sidings panel from Bloxwich box. The poster on flickr works at Bloxwich box and I have made contact with him and he's going to ask a few colleagues for their thoughts/memories, hopefully that throws light on a few more things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_long Posted September 19, 2012 Author Share Posted September 19, 2012 Our own Phil Bartlett (Phil) posted in the other thread about his article in RM Aug 1998. I've managed to get a copy of the mag. Hopefully he won't mind me quoting it. "On arrival at Bloxwich the normal procedure is for the incoming loads to bE stabled on 'Thomas's siding'. The loco then draws the empties out of the works onto the loop, draws the loads off Thomas's siding onto the down main behind the dummy before propelling them into the works. The loco then backs onto the empties on the loop and returns to Bescot for remarshalling." There are photos to prove this in the article also, so that puts another spin on the movements! Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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