BR_Blue_1986 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I must say I haven't experienced any problems, but mine only runs slow due to being a small layout on a u shaped end to end layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
84B Oxley Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Bob I have Heljan 20, 26, 37 and 47s, all of which negotiate all of the pointwork on my small layout with absolutely no problem at all, the 40, fortunately, isn't mine but one that I am weathering for a friend. Having modified the back-to-back on the pony trucks has eradicated most of the problems, but there is still one spot on my layout that the 40's pony trucks don't like, it's always the leading truck which leaves the track. Only by crawling at walking pace will the wheels stay on the track, no other Heljan, or any other loco for that matter, derails at this one spot. I think the problem could only be satisfactorily solved by somehow either lengthening the existing trucks or making new ones altogether which pivot much further back on the bogie. Short pony trucks derail because the wheels can 'crab' along. I also own two Pacific locos and they are both prone to derail when running backwards. I don't like being so negative about a model, it truly looks the part but decent running should be the norm. I can't be the only one experiencing this problem, I can't believe the 40 I have is a rogue model. It will be interesting to see if Heljan use the same system in their projected 'Peak'. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverstreak Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Hi Jeff Many thanks for the very informative reply. Looking back a couple of pages I can see from one image showing the underneath of the chassis that the pony truck does indeed appear to have a very short pivot on which to operate. I can't see from that image just how wide the pony truck is. A narrow light body can allow the wheel wander perhaps adding washers to both sides could reduce this. Plus is there any opportunity to fit some form of springing to prevent it lifting at will. I don't see your posts as pushing negativity, quite the opposite. Such threads are immensely beneficial in identifying problems irrespective of how widespread they are. Hopefully members of boards such as these can come up with ways of overcoming / solving such issues. After all even at a discounted price of £500 these are still expensive purchases and the very least we should expect is that should stay on the track and negotiate the standard Peco turnout without incident. Personally I would have no hesitation in sending such a problem maker back to the supplier and certainly Heljan should be made aware of this as there appears to be a problem in Quality control regarding this model Regards Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
84B Oxley Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Bob The actual trucks are very narrow-approximately 15 mm, and allow the axles a huge amount of sideplay, I'm talking at least five millimetres( the remainder is taken up by the nylon bushes in the wheels. There is a large spring fitted to give 'downforce' but it doesn't prevent the aforementioned 'crabbing'. I have fitted collars made from brass tube between the wheels and the trucks to take most of the sideplay out. I can't believe Heljan haven't tested their model over pointwork and I still wonder if I am the only one to experience this problem! Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted October 30, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2014 I agree that these things should work but I always try to avoid the hassle of returns if possible - especially as mine is on its way back from a sound fitting. I'll be interested to hear how other purchasers get on. Would a lump of weight in the pony truck work? Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
84B Oxley Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Chris I too dislike returns, one large retailer of O Gauge (no names) is always very scathing of any problems encountered (been there, done that) I can't see that Heljan would do anything about it like recalling all the 40s, it's not a matter of life or death like a car so I too try to sort out the problems myself. As far as a weight on the pony truck goes, there is already quite a strong spring in place. I have just had a phone call from a fellow Preston club member who is having the same problems. He has widened the back-to-back of all the bogie wheels, as well as the pony ones, and says that running is much better now. He is going to experiment with removing the spring altogether as he reckons it is exerting an uneven force on the truck. Watch this space! Life is never dull in O Gauge!!!!!Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fay Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 As Howes are the UK service agents for Heljan I wonder if they are aware of this? None of my customers have yet encountered any problems but I will be keeping a close eye on this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR_Blue_1986 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I can confirm there are 4 hidden screws. They are under plastic detailing parts which pull out from the chassis to the inside of each door. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted October 30, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2014 The class 40 is clearly "unlucky"... I have finally solved my issues with the 4mm Bachmann D211 by getting Digitrains to install an ESU stay alive - annoying (and it came at a price) but I do now have a Class 40 I can use both at home and on my exhibition layout... Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR_Blue_1986 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I've also noticed the dials in the cabs light up with direction of travel! Never knew that! Haha. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
84B Oxley Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Yes, the dials do light up. I took the attached photo by running the 40 at full power up against a stopblock.(Probably not good practice!) No, I don't have DCC............ Further experimenting has taken place this evening, I have removed the pony truck springs altogether. The loco is running minus its bogie sideframes at the moment and with the springs in place it's clear to see that the wheels are not following a smooth, straight path and are therefore more likely to derail. Removing the springs has all but eliminated derailments...but if the loco is run too fast the wheels simply bounce off the track. You win some.........I shall try gradually shortening the springs until an acceptable compromise, hopefully, is reached. Incidentally, neither spring, and they are hefty ones, was properly straight. A fellow club member has contacted Howes, to be told that he was the first person to report this problem. I will be away for a few days from tomorrow so won't be able to do any more tinkering but I'll follow this thread with interest. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR_Blue_1986 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I did notice the front trailing wheels can short between the track and blades of my peco points. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
84B Oxley Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 The shorting is a side effect of back-to-back measurement being too narrow and the pony truck wheels having a mind of their own, they don't travel in a straight line but 'crab' along. One member of our club has also noticed this phenomenon. Glad I'm not the only one experiencing 'issues'. Hopefully, the cure is relatively simple but we shouldn't have to do it when 500 notes have been shelled out! Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic17 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I've just come back from a few days away to discover a load of correspondence re derailment problems - if so that is most unfortunate. My 2 class 40's arrived just before I went away so I have not even had the chance to give them a test run yet. I tread with fear now! I suspect many others will not have tested their locos yet either so this could grow and grow unfortunately. If this is a major problem then this isn't really good enough. As others have said this needs to be raised with Heljan via Howes I guess...... It would be interesting to get Brian's take on this as he has probably done more running than any of us as he has had various models in his hands for longer. Did you not have any problems in the garden Brian? - I suppose it might depend upon your trackwork configurations. With a new bogie design incorporating pony wheels this really should have been tested properly by Heljan before acceptance etc (especially through Peco points). How can the back to back measurements have gone wrong it seems? Full marks to the discussions on here and those who are looking for solutions/testing etc but as others have stated you really, really should not have to do this to a brand new £500 loco out of the box. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverstreak Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I'm guessing that a high percentage of Heljan Class 40 purchasers are those who would prefer to have a JLTRT Class 40 sitting in front of them but neither have the time or expertise to build one or shell out on having one built for them. Being predominately a kit builder of steam outline kits I do fall into a similar category. Despite its inaccuracies I was 50/50 on pressing the trigger to purchase one but have held back . I could deal with the back to backs and pony truck but it would an irritation to have to do so. None of my colleagues have purchased a Heljan Class 40 so I have no information as to whether this is a more widespread problem, time will tell. I suspect this is a Quality control issue only involving the production batch and the test examples that ended up with Brian probably had closer attention before ending up with him but I'm sure he will be in a position to tell us. Good on Jeff for providing blow by blow reports on his work to overcome the poor running of his example, keeping in mind that staying on the track is a fundamental requirement of any RTR irrespective of its cost. Regards Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic17 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I'm guessing that a high percentage of Heljan Class 40 purchasers are those who would prefer to have a JLTRT Class 40 sitting in front of them but neither have the time or expertise to build one or shell out on having one built for them. Being predominately a kit builder of steam outline kits I do fall into a similar category. Despite its inaccuracies I was 50/50 on pressing the trigger to purchase one but have held back . I could deal with the back to backs and pony truck but it would an irritation to have to do so. None of my colleagues have purchased a Heljan Class 40 so I have no information as to whether this is a more widespread problem, time will tell. I suspect this is a Quality control issue only involving the production batch and the test examples that ended up with Brian probably had closer attention before ending up with him but I'm sure he will be in a position to tell us. Good on Jeff for providing blow by blow reports on his work to overcome the poor running of his example, keeping in mind that staying on the track is a fundamental requirement of any RTR irrespective of its cost. Regards Bob You might well be correct there Bob, I noticed on Brian's YouTube channel a video of his BRBlue40 (featured earlier in these pages) rattling around the garden towing Heljan test wagons and seemingly going through pointwork without problems. As you say I'm sure Brian will enlighten us shortly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 OK then chaps I don't know what the problem is but at the moment it does seem to be only on the Preston layout? I had 3 pre-production models that I ran a lot on numerous layouts, smooth handbuilt points, dogs hind legs baseboard joints portable layout with Peco bullhead points and my undulating outdoor track with Peco flatbottom points and I did not get one derailment ever! I will be running a production 40 on Sunday on the Bourne End test track with Peco flatbottom points so will see what it goes like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR_Blue_1986 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I can confirm an issue, I just measured all my axels back to back on my 40 and ALL are reading 28.8. I compared this to my Heljan 33 which had 29.1-29.2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 I will be in Howes on Monday so will have a look at this issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delticfan Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Would a simple retro fit part from Heljan be an answer. Either dealer or owner fitted. I don't want to go hacking mine up just to make it work nor do I want a new loco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard carr Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Read instructions? But I'm a bloke..................Seriously though, thanks for that uk_pm. Richard, what I did to repair my bogie involved first of all dismantling the entire bogie to remove the detached 'gimbal' (PITA), then drilling the end of the truck casting to accept a short 10 BA bolt, with a small washer under the head. This can then be trapped in the housing for the bogie. On the second bogie all I did was to prise off the bogie sideframes and twist the wheels by hand, awkward but preferable to the palaver I had with the opposite end! I've also found it beneficial to add a collar made from brass tube to the axle on each side of the pony truck casting. Otherwise, the wheels move across the casting and negate any of the side control that is built in. Hope this helps. The 40 runs much better over pointwork now but is still not infallible. I set the back-to-back using a gauge that was supplied years ago by the Gauge O Guild. Jeff Thanks Jeff, that sounds a relatively simple fix. Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 Well I don't know what's happening at Preston? I ran a pre-production and a production 40 around the Bourne End test track over old Peco bullhead points and they both ran ok. I have run two production 40's around my garden today with Peco flatbottom points and they ran fine. I measured the back to back and it is 28.95mm instead of GoG standard of 29mm, not a million miles out. I even got one reading 28.99mm, .01 of a mill out. Over flanges the Guild says it should be 30.75 minimum, I got 30.77mm so pretty close I would say. All I can suggest is to drop the wheelsets out and give them a twist and a pull to make them wider until they go round your layout. 40's do have quite a long wheelbase bogie, is this making it too tight for some layouts? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR_Blue_1986 Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I'll have a tinker after holiday. It's just my trailing axels on othe nose end of each bogie shorting on the blades/ track when that bogie is leading, I have tried running mine as at a good speed through them but no derailenent and running round a curve less than 6ft doesn't cause any issues as with any of my heljans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Ran our sample round Dave Lowery's layout for half an hour the other day -even left it unattended at times. No derailments. Dave's layout uses Peco track and points and there are very few 'straight' sections. CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
84B Oxley Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Gentlemen Been away for a few days so no posts. Firstly, Brian, thanks for looking at this issue and taking the trouble that you have to measure your locos, it is appreciated. I took my friend's 40 to Preston last night, the only modifications made up to now have been to open up the back-to-backs on the pony trucks, and to remove (temporarily) the springs. The pony trucks will now negotiate all of the pointwork on the Preston layout and on my own small layout, which uses exclusively Peco pointwork. It is now happy on all the Peco pointwork on Preston's layout, and almost all of it on mine, the exception being the double-slip where it doesn't derail but strikes the check rails with an almighty thump. It is obvious that the springs need to be reinstated, though I remain convinced that they are too powerful and cause the wheels to 'crab' so will experiment with shortening them just a touch. However, the main bogie wheels still 'thump' and occasionally derail on some of Preston's handbuilt trackwork. This trackwork causes no problems to the vast majority of all other locos (it would be tempting fate to say all...) Next step is to remove the bogie wheels and ease them out a touch; I don't have digital calipers but use an old Guild back-to-back gauge that does the job effectively. Using that on the 40 is what showed me that the back-to-back on my friend's loco is too tight. That's the state of play up to now, getting better but not perfect. It won't get a proper try out again until next Monday, by which time I will have widened the bogie wheels too. Will report back then. In the meantime, it does look good-I have lightly weathered it- and took the opportunity to pose it on my layout. The strange ghosting to the left of the bogie is a trackside figure, in case anyone is wondering! Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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