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Waverley Route new image links and discussion


'CHARD
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What's the hose hanging out of the cab on this photo taken at the same time?

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p677100019/hbcd10582#hbcd10582

Slake pipe. Connected to some fitting or other on the backhead, giving the crew a source of running water - used for hosing down the coal to reduce dust, and for sundry other things (including making tea?). Almost all Scottish-allocated locos have them. 

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Has anyone been through that photo album yet?  It's huge, but I've found a few WR images so far, as well as some good shots at St Margarets. Mostly undated and with almost no information attached.

 

V2 at Whitrope:

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p677100019/hbcd10582#hbced5d42

 

V2 60970 at Hawick.

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p677100019/hbcd10582#hbcede23c

 

2MTs at Hawick:

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p677100019/hbcd10582#hbcee29c5

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p677100019/hbcd10582#hbcee29dd

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p677100019/hbcd10582#hbcee2926

 

Heriot signalbox.

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p677100019/hbcd10582#hbcee5b56

 

A nice view of Jedburgh:

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p677100019/hbcd10582#hbcee7ba5

 

A Black 5 light engine at Galashiels:

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p677100019/hbcd10582#hbcee7ce6

 

Level crossing on the Selkirk branch. Lovely.

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p677100019/hbcd10582#hbcee92bc

 

D5301 heads north from Hawick.

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p677100019/hbcd10582#hbcee9365

 

2MT loitering outside Hawick shed.

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p677100019/hbcd10582#hbcee93bb

 

60027 Merlin, location given as Riccarton but it obviously isn't, any ideas?

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p677100019/hbcd10582#hbceea6c9

 

60031 Golden Plover at Galashiels

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p677100019/hbcd10582#hbcd10548

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p677100019/hbcd10582#hbcd1056b

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I was looking for something to do while RMWeb was down, and the temperature in the garage was still rising, so went right through it.

 

I did bookmark some from the WR for later inclusion in this thread, and as I couldn't sleep last night thought I would stick one up for approval. With such a long thread, I couldn't remember having seen them before.

 

Richard seems to have found all of the ones that I bookmarked, and a few more besides. Happy searching.

 

Regards

 

Ian

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I was looking for something to do while RMWeb was down, and the temperature in the garage was still rising, so went right through it.

 

I did bookmark some from the WR for later inclusion in this thread, and as I couldn't sleep last night thought I would stick one up for approval. With such a long thread, I couldn't remember having seen them before.

 

Richard seems to have found all of the ones that I bookmarked, and a few more besides. Happy searching.

 

Regards

 

Ian

 

I apologise for your wasted time, I didn't realise you were already working on this.

 

Best wishes, Richard

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I apologise for your wasted time, I didn't realise you were already working on this.

 

Best wishes, Richard

No apology needed, Richard.

 

I was definitely not 'working' on anything. just browsing various railway photo archives while RMWeb was down. Nearly as wasteful of time as being on here! I really should have been in the garage, working on Paisley St James, but I had only just put the heat on and being a wimp, decided to lose some time on line.

 

Best Regards to you and yours for the New Year.

 

Ian

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Has anyone been through that photo album yet?  It's huge, but I've found a few WR images so far, as well as some good shots at St Margarets. Mostly undated and with almost no information attached.

 

 

 

 

I went through it a few months ago and came to an agreement with TT for them to have an advert in The Waverley in return for us being able to publish unlimited photos. So you should be able to see plenty of Waverley Route photos in future issues, along with the ones that were published in the latest issue a couple of months ago.

 

Is that 60027 photo labelled Riccarton the other Riccarton (the one in Ayrshire)? When I found it I pretty much ignored it, assuming that it wasn't Waverley.

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A few observations on this super new haul.

 

The shot of D5301 'leaving' Hawick is actually loco and stock at repose between duties, I think https://www.transporttreasury.com/p677100019/hBCEE92BC#hbcee9365  - the next shot of the 2MT has the same Class 2 rake of MkIs in the background, it is stabled ECS I believe, in the original terminus station alignment.

 

The shots of the Black 5 running through the down platform at Gala and 60031 stood awaiting departure southwards, clearly show the difference in height between the goods yard and main lines.

 

Heriot station building and waiting shelter at cess level is the picture of innocence - beautiful!

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D407 appears on the list of locos known to have worked through Hawick - I can't tell you a date but it would have been during the guards' dispute in summer 1968 when certain WCML trains were diverted over the Waverley Route, and would probably have involved either the 09:40 Perth - Euston or. 11:20 Perth - Birmingham New St. / 08:15 return. D449 didn't enter service until well into December 1968 so almost certainly never ran over the line.

 

Seven EE Type 1s were recorded, mostly from the final batch in the D83xx series (possibly on delivery from Vulcan Foundry to Scotland?),  and also seven of what became class 27 - all but one from the original 65A batch and just D5383 off the Midland Lines.

 

There are no recorded sightings on the list I have of any NBL Type 2s appearing.

 

Bill

Edited by Bill Jamieson
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D407 appears on the list of locos known to have worked through Hawick - I can't tell you a date but it would have been during the guards' dispute in summer 1968 when certain WCML trains were diverted over the Waverley Route, and would probably have involved either the 09:40 Perth - Euston or. 11:20 Perth - Birmingham New St. / 08:15 return. D449 didn't enter service until well into December 1968 so almost certainly never ran over the line.

 

Seven EE Type 1s were recorded, mostly from the final batch in the D83xx series (possibly on delivery from Vulcan Foundry to Scotland?),  and also seven of what became class 27 - all but one from the original 65A batch and just D5383 off the Midland Lines.

 

There are no recorded sightings on the list I have of any NBL Type 2s appearing.

 

Bill

 

Interesting comment about delivery runs for the Class 20s, Bill!  That hadn't occurred to me previously, but does sound very plausible!  I always imagined that they 'could' have worked as far as Hawick on the freight only diagrams that brought non-boilered Class 25s 7602-7608 into Hawick during 1968, but on reflection your explanation is more robust.

 

 

EDIT: the visit of D5383 is made the more incredible by way of its early, violent demise after it was involved in a fatal collision in August 1965.

 

 

Also, this service was hauled by a 65A Class 27: 

 

22-23/09/1964 
Uplawmoor to Galashiels. HM the Queen Mother. 
Train - 5154, 45005, 9006, 9007, BSK
 
(I can't find the link to the British Pathe video showing the sparkling BRCW entering Gala station, but it has been posted on here before)
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https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/23/18/

 

Shows one on a Langholm working in September 1967.  If only I'd hung about a few more minutes as the loco derailed and the crane from Kingmoor came to re-rail the loco.  

 

This bridge, in common with the branch's imposing viaducts, has gone along with much of the embankment.  However, this one really was a hazard for the A7 motorist. Unlike the Tarras viaduct, which as so unsafe that it needed two attempts to blow it up, this single arched bridge was conventionally dismantled.

 

Bruce.

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Interesting comment about delivery runs for the Class 20s, Bill!  That hadn't occurred to me previously, but does sound very plausible!  I always imagined that they 'could' have worked as far as Hawick on the freight only diagrams that brought non-boilered Class 25s 7602-7608 into Hawick during 1968, but on reflection your explanation is more robust.

 

 

EDIT: the visit of D5383 is made the more incredible by way of its early, violent demise after it was involved in a fatal collision in August 1965.

 

 

Also, this service was hauled by a 65A Class 27: 

 

22-23/09/1964 
Uplawmoor to Galashiels. HM the Queen Mother. 
Train - 5154, 45005, 9006, 9007, BSK
 
(I can't find the link to the British Pathe video showing the sparkling BRCW entering Gala station, but it has been posted on here before)

 

 

Hi Ian,

I must admit it's only a guess, but none of the 64B locos involved (D8317/8/9/23) stayed very long before moving west to Glasgow. Of course it begs the question as to why D8316, also allocated initially to 64B, was never seen, but a one-off appearance would easily be missed if no enthusiast was around and the wrong signalman was on duty at Hawick (from the evidence of the final train register D. Harkness didn't record numbers, although Gordon Hall, Jimmy Douglas and C. Paterson did). That leaves the case of D8324 which is on the Hawick list but was first allocated to Polmadie. Was that perhaps misdirected to Haymarket in the first instance? - stranger things have happened.

By the way, the other two Type 1s recorded were D8006, which had a brief spell at Kittybrewster in late 1958 (presumably for trial purposes), and I strongly suspect was sighted during transfer north or back south, and D8080, which was at Eastfield for most of the '60s.

The pick-up freight workings to and from Hawick weren't covered by a discreet diagram - the loco off the 03:15 class 6 freight from Millerhill went back to Edinburgh on the 06:58 class 2 stopper. In the evening the loco off the 16:12 class 2 from Waverley returned north on the 19:40 assured arrival freight to Millerhill - this I think implies that a Type 2 (at least) would always have been used - and D7602 etc would have been fine in the summer. Of course a double-headed Millerhill to Carlisle New Yard freight can't be ruled out.

Bill

PS It was great to see you in Stow on Saturday afternoon and I hope you enjoyed the proceedings.

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https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/23/18/

 

Shows one on a Langholm working in September 1967.  If only I'd hung about a few more minutes as the loco derailed and the crane from Kingmoor came to re-rail the loco.  

 

This bridge, in common with the branch's imposing viaducts, has gone along with much of the embankment.  However, this one really was a hazard for the A7 motorist. Unlike the Tarras viaduct, which as so unsafe that it needed two attempts to blow it up, this single arched bridge was conventionally dismantled.

 

Bruce.

 

Polmadie Type 1s would have been regular visitors to Carlisle and no doubt one was borrowed on occasion for local work - I noted D8124 (66A) on shed at Kingmoor on Sunday 24th July 1966. Once steam had finished completely they would have been daily visitors although perusal of the 1969-70 freight WTT doesn't reveal a huge number of booked turns - one SX and one TFO working into Carlisle Yard for pairs of class 20s.

 

Bill

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Gents, many thanks for your replies regarding 20's and 27's working over the Waverley Route.

 

Interesting to note that D5383 worked over the Waverley Route, before it's early demise whilst still allocated to the LMR, meaning that every single class 27 did work in Scotland. 

 

Regards

 

Mark

 

Anent Class 27 D5383: I have a copy of a list of diesel locomotives recorded at Hawick, which I got via the Hawick & District Railway Society, and that does include D5383.  However – in Roger Siviter’s book “Waverley – Portrait of a Famous Route” at image 62 there is a picture of a BRCW Type 2 on a Down passenger approaching Riccarton South and the caption claims it’s D5383.  But I contend that this is definitely not D5383, because the loco has headcode discs rather than the 4-character headcode box carried by the 27s.  The loco number is not clear, but I suggest that this is actually Class 26 D5303, essentially because the position of the cab front lamp-irons is particular to D5300-03.  Perhaps some-one has seen this caption and made the reasonable assumption that a Down train passing Riccarton would have duly appeared at Hawick, and thus perpetuated the error.  Does anyone have more conclusive proof of D5383 at Hawick ?

 

Alasdair

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Anent Class 27 D5383: I have a copy of a list of diesel locomotives recorded at Hawick, which I got via the Hawick & District Railway Society, and that does include D5383.  However – in Roger Siviter’s book “Waverley – Portrait of a Famous Route” at image 62 there is a picture of a BRCW Type 2 on a Down passenger approaching Riccarton South and the caption claims it’s D5383.  But I contend that this is definitely not D5383, because the loco has headcode discs rather than the 4-character headcode box carried by the 27s.  The loco number is not clear, but I suggest that this is actually Class 26 D5303, essentially because the position of the cab front lamp-irons is particular to D5300-03.  Perhaps some-one has seen this caption and made the reasonable assumption that a Down train passing Riccarton would have duly appeared at Hawick, and thus perpetuated the error.  Does anyone have more conclusive proof of D5383 at Hawick ?

 

Alasdair

 

 

I'd always assumed it was simply a typo. [Edit: in the book, that is]

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I shouldn't be doing this as it's giving away parts of the book each time I do, but here's a snippet about 20s & 27s on the Waverley Route:

 

".... and the 1250hp class 27s were extremely rare, with very few recorded instances of workings on the line, and even less photographic evidence of such occurrences. Training runs took place with class 27s D5384, D5411, D5382 and D5387 from Cricklewood West & Leicester Midland depots in April & May 1964, each double headed with class 20s D8074, D8070 (twice) and D8122 from Eastfield & Polmadie."

 

Any use to anyone asking about 20s & 27s?

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I'd always assumed it was simply a typo. [Edit: in the book, that is]

 

Yes, there could be many reasons for this error in the book, eg mis-identification, mis-recording, mis-transcription, typo etc.  Which is why, if I'm intending to have a model of a particular loco or whatever, I like to have at least 2 reliable sources to confirm it or at least a clearly definitive photo.  In the same book, at image 37, the picture of a junction station claims to be Riddings but is actually Burnmouth on the ECML, an error perpetuated in at least one other book.  And in Robert Leslie's "Steam on the Waverley Route" (Bradford Barton), the pic of an A3 on page 33 is captioned as 60095 Flamingo, whereas the smokebox numberplate clearly shows 60079 (Bayardo)....

 

Alasdair

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Yes, there could be many reasons for this error in the book, eg mis-identification, mis-recording, mis-transcription, typo etc.  Which is why, if I'm intending to have a model of a particular loco or whatever, I like to have at least 2 reliable sources to confirm it or at least a clearly definitive photo.  In the same book, at image 37, the picture of a junction station claims to be Riddings but is actually Burnmouth on the ECML, an error perpetuated in at least one other book.  And in Robert Leslie's "Steam on the Waverley Route" (Bradford Barton), the pic of an A3 on page 33 is captioned as 60095 Flamingo, whereas the smokebox numberplate clearly shows 60079 (Bayardo)....

 

Alasdair

 

 

Problems with typos like that are because the person doing the proof reading doesn't know what they're looking at. So if the person who originally typed it got it wrong then the whole thing has simply slipped past two people (or more ) who have no real idea what they were looking at.

 

For people who know how to ID a loco there's several easy differences between a 26 & 27 front end. For people who simply look and think a zero looks like an eight it throws the whole class thing into doubt and gives rise to queries like yours. Editors beware!

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Anent Class 27 D5383: I have a copy of a list of diesel locomotives recorded at Hawick, which I got via the Hawick & District Railway Society, and that does include D5383.  However – in Roger Siviter’s book “Waverley – Portrait of a Famous Route” at image 62 there is a picture of a BRCW Type 2 on a Down passenger approaching Riccarton South and the caption claims it’s D5383.  But I contend that this is definitely not D5383, because the loco has headcode discs rather than the 4-character headcode box carried by the 27s.  The loco number is not clear, but I suggest that this is actually Class 26 D5303, essentially because the position of the cab front lamp-irons is particular to D5300-03.  Perhaps some-one has seen this caption and made the reasonable assumption that a Down train passing Riccarton would have duly appeared at Hawick, and thus perpetuated the error.  Does anyone have more conclusive proof of D5383 at Hawick ?

 

Alasdair

 

I would have thought it rather unlikely that any of those involved in putting the Hawick list together would have confused a class 26 with a 27 but, that said, I certainly wouldn't rule the typo out as a possible explanation for the appearance of D5383 in the list, and I would suggest that it does put a question mark against it. I will email Kenneth Gray to see whether he can shed any light on the matter. Incidentally I've had the Roger Siviter book for about 30 years and I had never noticed the error before!

 

Bill

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